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View Full Version : Opinions don't require hate.



Rand Kelly
04-02-2013, 01:35 AM
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526966_529906223717104_998106947_n.jpg

Boceephus
04-02-2013, 01:54 AM
Nice sentiment Rand. I've tried to follow that rule.

Rand Kelly
04-02-2013, 01:56 AM
Nice sentiment Rand. I've tried to follow that rule.

Yes you have my friend. Reading your posts has always been a positive experience here and at facebook.

Boceephus
04-02-2013, 01:59 AM
Thanks brother. I can say the same of you.

Rand Kelly
04-02-2013, 02:02 AM
:D

Oreb
04-02-2013, 04:26 AM
Get a room, you two.

Progtopia
04-02-2013, 05:13 AM
My ethos for my podcast.

Frumious B
04-02-2013, 06:46 AM
But how boring would it be if everyone were all positive and uplifting, sitting in a circle holding hands singing "Holy Lamb" to each other offering only positive praise while withholding criticism? IMHO that would render PE virtually unreadable. I think a little snark, sarcasm and even a little hate, properly channeled, can actually be good things.

Vic2012
04-02-2013, 07:10 AM
Well, I could do without snarkyness and sarcasm most of the time. I think for the benefit of new members, and especially members who's first language is not English it's better to be courteous and go easy on the snark (until they've been around for a while). What I do expect is to see negative reviews in threads. If someone thinks [insert name of album/artist/film] sucks, then let 'em say it without having to explain it in every detail and without people doing eyerolls. A public thread is open game. A thread only gets "ruined" by negative posts if the OP allows it. Let people have their say without the thread always turning into a pissing contest.

Progmatic
04-02-2013, 07:46 AM
Kumbaya My Lord Kumbaya....where is fun in that?

Scott Bails
04-02-2013, 08:18 AM
I think a little snark, sarcasm and even a little hate, properly channeled, can actually be good things.

I never would have gathered that from your posts here.




Nice sentiment, Rand. :up

trurl
04-02-2013, 08:25 AM
http://planetsixtysix.com/shop/full/worldpeas.jpg

nycsteve
04-02-2013, 08:25 AM
I HATE this opinion.

Superfly
04-02-2013, 09:40 AM
I don't waste my time on hate anymore. I used it all up in my youth. To the OP - :up

Scott Bails
04-02-2013, 09:45 AM
I don't waste my time on hate anymore. I used it all up in my youth.

To you. :up

3LockBox
04-02-2013, 10:04 AM
It isn't really the dissenting viewpoints that bring a thread down, its when the self-appointed experts suspect their authority has been impugned that everything goes to hell.

No Pride
04-02-2013, 11:34 AM
I think a little snark, sarcasm and even a little hate, properly channeled, can actually be good things.


I never would have gathered that from your posts here.
Damnit Scott, you beat me to it! :lol

Anyway, I do concur with the sentiment of this thread. If you enjoy feeling hatred and spreading it, maybe you need to worry about yourself a little bit.

Frumious B
04-02-2013, 02:39 PM
I never would have gathered that from your posts here.




Nice sentiment, Rand. :up

Some of the dullest and most uninspired tripe I have ever read on the Internet was written by seemingly intelligent folks who are trying overly hard to be positive, polite, even handed and inoffensive to the point that anything truly interesting, original and provacative that they might actually have to say is totally lost in a sea of nuance and forced inclusiveness. Music stirs passions. Passions result in strong opinions, both positive and negative. To try and deny this is to cheat yourself of a piece of your humanity.

I say folks should let it ALL hang out, message board politics and shrinking violet types who can't bear any criticism of their heroes be damned. I'd much rather read something well stated and compelling with which I totally and completely disagree than a bunch of mush that I find to be marginally more agreeable and positive.

Scott Bails
04-02-2013, 02:51 PM
Some of the dullest and most uninspired tripe I have ever read on the Internet was written by seemingly intelligent folks who are trying overly hard to be positive, polite, even handed and inoffensive to the point that anything truly interesting, original and provacative that they might actually have to say is totally lost in a sea of nuance and forced inclusiveness. Music stirs passions. Passions result in strong opinions, both positive and negative. To try and deny this is to cheat yourself of a piece of your humanity.

I say folks should let it ALL hang out, message board politics and shrinking violet types who can't bear any criticism of their heroes be damned. I'd much rather read something well stated and compelling with which I totally and completely disagree than a bunch of mush that I find to be marginally more agreeable and positive.


Fair enough.

When are you ever going to make a positive comment, since you say both are needed?

ronmac
04-02-2013, 02:59 PM
I hate hate. I love love, though.

I don't have a problem with strong opinions. People are certainly entitled to hate something. I certainly do. My problem is with ignorant opinions. I also have a problem with people who are thin-skinned and always looking to be the victim.

Vic2012
04-02-2013, 06:28 PM
Music stirs passions. Passions result in strong opinions, both positive and negative. To try and deny this is to cheat yourself of a piece of your humanity.

Bravo. This I agree with.


I say folks should let it ALL hang out, message board politics and shrinking violet types who can't bear any criticism of their heroes be damned.

:down, this I don't agree with. Never cared for that "put your hard had and flame retardent suit on" attitude. Everyone should be included on the main boards (private clubs are another story) to be able to post an opinion without being insulted. There's gotta be some middle ground somewhere. Why is everything one extreme or another? (that's how it seems sometimes).

wideopenears
04-02-2013, 06:42 PM
It's one thing to engage in criticism.....there's a place for that, I think. But criticism is NOT hate. Some folks don't seem to know the difference, though.

Hate, for the sake of hate, serves no purpose on message boards. But I find that this kind of unproductive spew is confined to a small number of people on message boards, in general. Those folks are just generally unhappy, and want to pull others down with them. I try my best to just ignore them.

Basic Human decency should be a guideline for all of us.

Don Arnold
04-02-2013, 06:52 PM
I can subscribe to Vic2012 & wideopen's sentiments above. Hearing varying viewpoints is a good thing. There will rarely be total consensus, and neither should there be. All I would ask of those posters who have a dissenting opinion, is express it with decency (as wideopen suggests) and respect: for other posters, particularly those with a different opinion, and, when it comes at least to Prog releases being discussed, for the artist(s) who invested time and energy in producing the release.

Adrian
04-02-2013, 07:03 PM
One of the great things about PE is that it avoids the outright nastiness that pervaded places like RMP. There's enough negativity in the world without bringing it to a place like this that many use to relax and escape for a while. Debate and respectful disagreement are one thing; attacking others and starting negative threads are quite another. If I want flame wars, I'll go a religion or politics forum.

Jerjo
04-02-2013, 07:05 PM
What I hate (in regards to PE) is those who jump into a thread discussing an act only to spew their strong dislike for such musician/s. I don't mind snark but when you jump in with both feet in the mouth just because you hate an artist for artistic/political/moral reasons it just doesn't help a discussion of the music. There's certain acts I can't stand for various reasons (Doors, Beach Boys, Nugent) but I have a general rule about not jumping in just to shit on them. I can see complaining about an album or a song, or even if a period in their oeuvre doesn't work for you. But the "I hate everything so-and-so ever recorded" shit is ridiculous. I remember when Michael Jackson died we couldn't have a single conversation about the music because in each and every thread the same couple members would jump in screaming that he should rot in hell. I get it, he did reprehensible shit. But a discussion of his work would still have some merit. And don't get me started about those who get their precious prog panties in a pink twist just because a three-chord act is brought up in OT.

Frumious B
04-02-2013, 07:05 PM
Bravo. This I agree with.



:down, this I don't agree with. Never cared for that "put your hard had and flame retardent suit on" attitude. Everyone should be included on the main boards (private clubs are another story) to be able to post an opinion without being insulted. There's gotta be some middle ground somewhere. Why is everything one extreme or another? (that's how it seems sometimes).

Personal attacks on other posters would be a violation of the terms of the site, but it seems to me that anything pertaining to music and performance should be fair game. Problem is that some people take any slight against their favorite musician, band or album as an attack on themselves which I think is pretty wrongheaded. I've participated in vigorous discussions where liking something like the music of Yes was very much a minority opinion held ONLY by myself and the band was ridiculed mercilessly. It didn't faze me in the slightest. I still spoke my mind and didn't hold it against anyone for hating and mocking them (and some of the mocking was damned funny) despite being one of my 2-3 favorite artists of all time.

Poisoned Youth
04-02-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm not a fan of threads like this for two reasons:

1) PE is a fairly accommodating place. But there should be room for critical opinion and debate. For every person that is too critical, there's also one that's too sensitive that can't handle critical opinion. So it works both ways imo. But threads like this just imply we actually have a big problem here when, in truth, it's a few bad apples and some fanboys.


2) It's better suited for a Facebook status, where people can "like" it.

Christopher Henry
04-02-2013, 07:41 PM
Promote what you love instead of attacking what you hate.

Another YES thread?

Frumious B
04-02-2013, 08:17 PM
And don't get me started about those who get their precious prog panties in a pink twist just because a three-chord act is brought up in OT.

I'll just come out and say it: Any given track by The Smiths means far more to me than the entire Gentle Giant discography.

Vic2012
04-03-2013, 05:34 AM
Personal attacks on other posters would be a violation of the terms of the site, but it seems to me that anything pertaining to music and performance should be fair game. Problem is that some people take any slight against their favorite musician, band or album as an attack on themselves which I think is pretty wrongheaded

I'll go with that. I always say that any public thread is fair game. It doesn't hurt to have a sense of humor about all this too.

Sean
04-03-2013, 07:57 AM
I'm not a fan of threads like this for two reasons:

1) PE is a fairly accommodating place. But there should be room for critical opinion and debate. For every person that is too critical, there's also one that's too sensitive that can't handle critical opinion. So it works both ways imo. But threads like this just imply we actually have a big problem here when, in truth, it's a few bad apples and some fanboys.


2) It's better suited for a Facebook status, where people can "like" it.

Agreed 100%. This is the most accommodating prog forum on the net. We don't do hate. Some people have a hard time separating criticism from it though, clearly.

Yves
04-03-2013, 08:35 AM
I hate you all.

progeezer
04-03-2013, 09:07 AM
I hate you all. Then take that f*****g hat in your profile pic off!!

MudShark22
04-03-2013, 09:23 AM
I hate you all.

Right back at ya big guy! :up

Yves
04-03-2013, 09:25 AM
Then take that f*****g hat in your profile pic off!!

and how the fuck am I supposed to do that? I'd need Vinnie-like photoshop skills to pull that one off!

Progmatic
04-03-2013, 09:28 AM
Then take that f*****g hat in your profile pic off!!

Hat haters :D

Yves
04-03-2013, 09:37 AM
It's because that hat was a gift from him to me. That photo was taken at FMPM in 2008 iirc. It was the first time I met the Geezer. He was wearing that hat but at some point in the absinthe-soaked evening it ended up on my head. X)

Casey
04-03-2013, 10:08 AM
You're all anti-hat-tites.


It takes more strength to hold back the impulse to be negative than to let the negativity fly & see what happens. You can attract more more bees with honey &, in the end, isn't this what we all want? More converts to our viewpoint?

polmico
04-03-2013, 10:20 AM
What I do expect is to see negative reviews in threads. If someone thinks [insert name of album/artist/film] sucks, then let 'em say it without having to explain it in every detail and without people doing eyerolls.

If I say something negative about a band/album/whatever, I usually try to explain why I don't like that thing. If you stay away from certain threads with these valid criticisms, most folk don't care. I'd much rather see a "This sucks because . . ." rather than "This sucks." But, yes, if you post in certain threads, the criticism, valid or not, is not viewed for what it is. In a roundabout way, I guess you could say those people in those threads feel like they are being personally attacked. It is no disgrace, if some good people don't like like what you like.

Scott Bails
04-03-2013, 10:46 AM
:lol

trurl
04-03-2013, 12:09 PM
Hatahz gonna hate.

progeezer
04-03-2013, 12:30 PM
Just in case anyone thought my "hat" post was serious, it was as serious as my hatted friend from the north usually is.

It was indeed a gift from me since Yves admired it and had previously sent me a bunch of music. The absinthe may have contributed to my generosity:lol. I love hate (must be a Freudian typo). I meant hats.

trurl
04-03-2013, 12:41 PM
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k481/psycho-pirate-99/MFC%20comments/HATTERS_GONNA_HAT.jpg

JKL2000
04-03-2013, 02:07 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rFrI2UmxtBM/R88NF0caZzI/AAAAAAAAAVg/7U2bgw1_2rU/s400/UnicornRainbow.jpg

Progmatic
04-03-2013, 02:11 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/Pleasantville_ver5.jpg/220px-Pleasantville_ver5.jpg

A. Scherze
04-03-2013, 02:38 PM
"I hate you ... almost as much as I hate myself"

--
Damian Faust

Dave (in MA)
04-03-2013, 02:50 PM
1386

Facelift
04-03-2013, 02:53 PM
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7hdceFxRXzoAcYdXNyoA?p=%22graters% 20gonna%20grate%22&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-622

Shadow
04-03-2013, 04:20 PM
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526966_529906223717104_998106947_n.jpg

This is a music forum, that kind of talk doesn't belong here. ;)

Vic2012
04-03-2013, 06:27 PM
I'd much rather see a "This sucks because . . ." rather than "This sucks."

Well, maybe it's just me, but I'm the type that doesn't care why someone thinks something sucks ;).

If I think and album is boring I might explain why I think it's boring, but sometimes I think it's boring, just because it's boring ;).

If I start a thread about [artist/album/whatever] and someone just posts two words - It Sucks, I don't care why they think it sucks. But again, that's just me.

Trane
04-03-2013, 06:48 PM
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526966_529906223717104_998106947_n.jpg

hateful piece of crap opinion, if you ask me :p


is that poop at the bottom of that illustration? ;)

Shadow
04-03-2013, 06:59 PM
is that poop at the bottom of that illustration? ;)

It does grow the best plants.

Superfly
04-04-2013, 07:57 AM
I've found, over the years of visiting forums, that the negativity for the sake of being negative doesn't bother me anymore. (even when it's directed at me :yell ). I figure they still haven't gotten over having their teddy bear or blankie taken away from them and need to take it out on someone else. :p

I've often wondered this; If someone else gets all sputtery and angry over something I've said, 'how is it my fault that they have no self control?' :bad

But I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and do agree that when people censor themselves to saying only positive comments, they do a disservice to all involved. It's only when folks confuse opinion with fact that things start going to shit.

yogibear
04-05-2013, 09:20 PM
21st century hippies. star trek episode "heading off to eden yeah brother. hey spock ! do you play".

PeterG
04-05-2013, 09:32 PM
I regularly ask atheists or secular humanists as some like to be called, why they can't in their magazines, books, interaction discuss what they believe in and like or love rather than constantly attacking what they dislike and don't beleive in. And after many years of asking I've come to the conclusion that an atheist's raison d'etre is that s/he hates religion and must constantly write/speak out against it.

And Rand, I support that sentiment 99%, only 99% because in an unintentional way the current wording supports hating. I'd reword it to "Promote what you love and stop hating" I just don't accept hate & don't use the word. My kids swear, not severely, and to be honest I can live with that but they know not to use the hate word in front me.

Scott Bails
04-05-2013, 09:39 PM
I regularly ask atheists or secular humanists as some like to be called, why they can't in their magazines, books, interaction discuss what they believe in and like or love rather than constantly attacking what they dislike and don't beleive in. And after many years of asking I've come to the conclusion that an atheist's raison d'etre is that s/he hates religion and must constantly write/speak out against it.


I'd say that you're talking to the wrong atheists.

From what I gather, if you can prove it, they'll believe it.

Adrian
04-05-2013, 10:01 PM
I regularly ask atheists or secular humanists as some like to be called, why they can't in their magazines, books, interaction discuss what they believe in and like or love rather than constantly attacking what they dislike and don't beleive in. And after many years of asking I've come to the conclusion that an atheist's raison d'etre is that s/he hates religion and must constantly write/speak out against it.

It's a two-way street, as far as those discussions go. I used to frequent a spirituality forum that was really more like a "Christians vs. atheists" forum, and the believers routinely went out of their way to mischaracterize atheists and atheism. It was just like a typical political forum -- each side exaggerating about and demonizing the other. Actual debate was impossible. Which circles back to the beginning of this thread. I think sometimes we're losing our ability to discuss our differences without lashing out, and the safety and relative anonymity of the Internet make it easier to do so. People say things online that they'd never dream of saying to someone's face.

As for being "too polite," I get my buttons pushed just like anyone else does, but I try to remain as civil as I can in online discussions. I'd rather be polite and boring than divisive.

ronmac
04-05-2013, 10:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAwfmpt2T-g

gryphs also
04-05-2013, 10:20 PM
When it comes to music, there is no reason to hate. When it comes to religion or politics...I'm guilty. When religious people justify their amoral behaviour based upon the self-agrandizing cloack of "morality", I have a problem. I only hate when others hate first. Not productive, but this too is reality. Or at the recent conservative conference when the Governor or Florida said that just because you believe in the traditional definition of marriage it doesn't make you a bigot... YES IT DOES. You don't get to define the paramenters.

I can't respond to hate with love...can't do it...because the people who are hating think they are justified simply because they think they are...ad hoc propter ergo hoc...

ronmac
04-05-2013, 10:43 PM
I'd say that you're talking to the wrong atheists.

From what I gather, if you can prove it, they'll believe it.

QFT

Digital_Man
04-06-2013, 02:52 AM
While a nice sentiment it's not realistic. That said it's usually never appropriate to be venemous or attack people on here. I myself have been verbally attacked and have had people get personal with me. I've also learned that you can't win with these people. In other words you can never convince an asshole he's an asshole. That's one thing that makes him an asshole. It's similar to alcoholics. They won't get better until they admit they are alcoholics. A little sarcasm or snippiness is ok. That's what the smileys are for. ;)

Vic2012
04-06-2013, 08:15 AM
"heading off to eden yeah brother. hey spock ! do you play".

:lol

What was that harp/lute thing Spock played in that eppy? He rocked that thing ;).


I'd reword it to "Promote what you love and stop hating"

I just don't see why people are getting all in a tizzy over soem negative opinions in threads. It just seems like it's either one extreme or the other. If you don't like that album, you muste HATE them. If you're not a liberal, well you must be a right-wing, reactionary, redneck nut. If it's not black, well then, it must be white. And this goes on all the time on internet forums. I like levity. I like balance. I like to read negative comments in album reviews, or discussions about bands. Hey everyone, I love AC/DC. I don't care if you think they suck. I don't care. But you can say they suck to your hearts content. I'm not offended by that, because I don't give a shit :). Did any of this make sense?

I just don't get why people get their shorts in a bunch over this.

:lol

Casey
04-06-2013, 08:21 AM
A good mental -& physical- exercise is not to respond as others would have you. In other words, don't give in to the dark side. You are supreme. That's not to say that you cannot learn from others. Just don't let your emotions, easily prompted by the actions or statements of others, get the better of you. Many years ago I stumbled upon an idea I expressed in a conversation that I've revisited many times. Love & hate are natural opposites. Love is the absence of emotion, including fear. Hate is the presence of all emotions, typically in a twisted, self-consuming mass. Love is surrender. Surrender gives you a sense of true bliss. In such a state you can peaceably listen to any discussion without getting sucked into the black hole of hate.

Trane
04-06-2013, 09:15 AM
OK, we really shouldn't, but I'm not the one who started it... (my first intervention in this thread was mostly humour, brw)

I take it that the real subject is about some not wanting to read stuff that goes against their "religion"... and be contradicted in their beliefs
They don't want to read that group XYZ or film MNO is not as great they think - or even suck...
which means that they want to push the so-called positive-thread only >> enhance only what you love, and don't talk about something you don't like


I regularly ask atheists or secular humanists as some like to be called, why they can't in their magazines, books, interaction discuss what they believe in and like or love rather than constantly attacking what they dislike and don't beleive in. And after many years of asking I've come to the conclusion that an atheist's raison d'etre is that s/he hates religion and must constantly write/speak out against it.

Then you're not speaking to and of real atheists, because atheist don't "believe" and one of the only (or main) reason why they mistrust religions is that these sects (yes religions are big and official sects) are using their beliefs to impose their ways upon others by profiting of their fear of the unknown (life after death) and other superstitions... So sooooorrrryyyy, but the ones abusing freedom are those insisting that not believing in their ways are being blasphemic as soon as you dismantle their theories in a normal conversation.

Most/all atheists have no problems with agnostics or even people believing in a "creator"... but believing that the creator speaks to some "priests" (part of a clergy) as to allow them to carry out its voice and gain the power to tell others what to do, calling it moral or morale... Yes I/we can become allergic. (remember inquisitions??)

Most atheists are not agressive to mildly religious people (it's their "problem" after all, and in most case it's no problem to the atheist)... those who keep it to themselves and don't try to preach it and enforce it on thers, fine and no problems. It's when religions stop you from doing things THEY believe is wrong (for ex: divorce, euthanize, abort), calling it immoral, they infringe on freedom >> you don't wabnt to divorce, fine: don't ... but don't stop your neighbor from doing so

Atheism = freedom
religion = jail (and hate for those outside it, and apostasy for those who want to escape it)

Who's the intolerant here???


It's a two-way street, as far as those discussions go. I used to frequent a spirituality forum that was really more like a "Christians vs. atheists" forum, and the believers routinely went out of their way to mischaracterize atheists and atheism. It was just like a typical political forum -- each side exaggerating about and demonizing the other. Actual debate was impossible. Which circles back to the beginning of this thread. I think sometimes we're losing our ability to discuss our differences without lashing out, and the safety and relative anonymity of the Internet make it easier to do so. People say things online that they'd never dream of saying to someone's face


Of course, calling for blasphemy and discrediting those who don't follow your dogma and doctrine is the eternal way to keep the power... Have illusion, religions are a form of political power, much more so than spirituality . It's all part of the strategy all clergies ever had in the story of humanity, to discard those that don't believe in their "dogma stuff"... Constant misinformation about the oponents, dispelled by the priests in those black or white masses... Some even call atheism and agnosticism a "religion", and some fake atheists have even constructed a table of ten commendments to try to prove it...

And indeed, internet is facilitating the misinformation (while at the same time offering some real informations as well)


When it comes to religion or politics...I'm guilty. When religious people justify their amoral behaviour based upon the self-agrandizing cloack of "morality", I have a problem. I only hate when others hate first. Not productive, but this too is reality.

I can't respond to hate with love...can't do it...because the people who are hating think they are justified simply because they think they are...ad hoc propter ergo hoc...

Ultimately.... YUP!!!!!

Sorry, but I'm not the one who started this thread, nor am I the one who turned it into a religious debate... I just contribute love (mostly) and even some hate ;)

Trane
04-06-2013, 09:17 AM
I just don't get why people get their shorts in a bunch over this.

:lol


Yuuuupppppp....

and AC/DC sucks!!!! :p






























(not) ;)

polmico
04-06-2013, 09:38 AM
This.

1409

Vic2012
04-06-2013, 10:51 AM
using their beliefs to impose their ways upon others by profiting of their fear of the unknown (life after death) and other superstitions... So sooooorrrryyyy, but the ones abusing freedom are those insisting that not believing in their ways are being blasphemic as soon as you dismantle their theories in a normal conversation.

Okay, not to get too perilously close to the precipice of religion talk, I have to agree with this. The only thing I'll say is that Catholics here in the US don't shove it down anyone's throats. That's been my experience my whole life. Mainstream Christians usually don't go on crusades to convert or condemn people. I'm only speaking from personal experience, so Peter please don't be offended. I'm not sure I'm an athiest. I prefer to be open minded about "God" or whatever, but the older I get, the more I experience life, the more I lean toward agnostic.