Pope to abdicate on 28th Feb

[PeterG]

http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-benedict-xvi-announces-his-resignation-at-end

[PeterG]

I'd say the first African or Asian Pope is a strong possibility this time round.

[Scott Bails]

Wow. I don't see it that way at all. I'd guess that they'd go more traditional and go with a Roman/Italian pope this time around, after going Polish and German the last two times.

No offense to any Catholics here, but the Vatican isn't known for being "progressive."

[Progmatic]

I thought that Pop has to die to resign...

[llanwydd]

Are you sure that abdication is the same as resignation? The news agencies aren't using the word "abdicate".

[Progmatic]

Are you sure that abdication is the same as resignation? The news agencies aren't using the word "abdicate".

quote from article "Pope Benedict XVI on Monday said he plans on resigning the papal office on February 28th"

[Scott Bails]

Are you sure that abdication is the same as resignation? The news agencies aren't using the word "abdicate".

They used both terms on the Today Show this morning. Not saying that they're the most reliable when it comes to this stuff, just reporting what they said.

Either way, he is stepping down effective Feb. 28 and a new Pope will be elected.

[ronmac]

Reports that Donald Trump is trying to shape that thing on his head to look like a papal crown are being denied.

[enpdllp]

The two things that come into mind is if he had any knowledge or role on the recent financial or child abuse scandals.

[PeterG]

My use of the word abdicate is my own, even though many are writing resign. Abdication is simply resignation from a position of power. The Pope is not only head of the Catholic church but also Bishop of Rome and the Vatican's Head of State, thus saying abdicate is perfectly suitable.

[walt]

You can fool some of the papal some of the time.........

[PeterG]

The two things that come into mind is if he had any knowledge or role on the recent financial or child abuse scandals.

Really? Why? I didn't think that at all. I read his letter and understood that he doesn't feel physically or spiritually strong enough to carry on. Why do you have to sully that?

[NogbadTheBad]

Really? Why? I didn't think that at all. I read his letter and understood that he doesn't feel physically or spiritually strong enough to carry on. Why do you have to sully that?Because he was in charge of the body that investigated all the child abuse allegations, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, prior to his ascension to Pope. He personally wrote letters advising the downplaying of allegations and recommending not defrocking abusive priests. Maybe his conscience finally got the better of him but I doubt it, it's probably more to do with his health as he has previously stated that Popes who are not healthy enough to fulfill the needs of the office should resign.

[PeterG]

Discussing the Pope's frailty on BBC right now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21409149

[PeterG]

I thought that Pop has to die to resign...

No, that's a myth. Canon Law permits Papal resignation, that said, the last Pope to resign was about 600 years ago.

[Duncan Glenday]

Are you sure that abdication is the same as resignation? The news agencies aren't using the word "abdicate".

What's the difference between 'abdicate' and 'resign'?

In this context, I think the 2 words can be used interchangeably.

[ronmac]

The only difference between resign and abdicate is that by abdicating, one relinquishes power or rights. So, I think it's actually fitting.

[Dave (in MA)]

I'd say the first African or Asian Pope is a strong possibility this time round.
There have been 3 Popes from Africa and 8 from Asia.

[PeterG]

There have been 3 Popes from Africa and 8 from Asia.

Yes, yes, but you know what I mean. However, while you're getting all ancient, back then Egypt was not considered part of Africa and Asia as a concept didn't exist and certinaly not for the Middle East.

[Sean]

He sometimes wished he was the Sultan of Brunei.....

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

A Latin American candidate may be waiting in the wings also... I'd say we're almost certainly going to get one who isn't from Europe.

[Duncan Glenday]

The only difference between resign and abdicate is that by abdicating, one relinquishes power or rights. So, I think it's actually fitting.

I'd say that resigning also 'relinquishes power or rights'..?

Not important, though. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[enpdllp]

Really? Why? I didn't think that at all. I read his letter and understood that he doesn't feel physically or spiritually strong enough to carry on. Why do you have to sully that?


Because he was in charge of the body that investigated all the child abuse allegations, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, prior to his ascension to Pope. He personally wrote letters advising the downplaying of allegations and recommending not defrocking abusive priests. Maybe his conscience finally got the better of him but I doubt it, it's probably more to do with his health as he has previously stated that Popes who are not healthy enough to fulfill the needs of the office should resign.

What NogbadTheBad said except for the health part. Some of Pope Benedict XVI predecessors were pretty frail and kept on going.

[NogbadTheBad]

What NogbadTheBad said except for the health part. Some of Pope Benedict XVI predecessors were pretty frail and kept on going.
I agree that a lot of frail Popes have kept going, in fact most continue until they are dead and you can't much frailer than that. My point was that Benedict has previously called for frail Popes to resign so it would be fitting if he suspported his own edict.

[PeterG]

What NogbadTheBad said except for the health part. Some of Pope Benedict XVI predecessors were pretty frail and kept on going.

Yes, predecessors that he and the College of Cardinals wished would resign long before they lost their mental faculties. JP II for exmaple, should've resigned at least 10 years before he died. Too many popes in the past have carried on when they should've resigned

[PeterG]

My point was that Benedict has previously called for frail Popes to resign so it would be fitting if he suspported his own edict.

Exactly.

[Progmatic]

There have been 3 Popes from Africa and 8 from Asia.

like when??? in 2nd century when one of the Pope jobs was to become a martyr??? ... since Catholic Church become powerful it has been one big European (Italian) political fraternity...

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I disagree about JP2. He was frail but his mental faculties remained intact to the end.

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm The first one was the 14th Pope, in the 2nd century.

[PeterG]

I disagree about JP2. He was frail but his mental faculties remained intact to the end.

Apparently not, according to what experts have been saying today. Also, according to experts, the Pope wanted JPII to resign long before he died. Lets not forgot that the current Pope was top Cardinal while JP II was on the papal throne.

[PeterG]

Dave, in modern times when we say African or Asian pope we mean modern African or Asian.

[Scott Bails]

I assumed that when you said "first" you meant "first." ;)

[PeterG]

oh God......

Ok, lets be extra unambiguous about this then - the first Black African or fareast Asian e.g. Korean or Chinese pope.

[Yanks2014]

Too bad the election process does not include campaigning. OK, I'm joking, but if I could I'd campaign for the first ever north American Pope. I'm sure Cardinal Dolan would be up for this.

[Scott Bails]

No, the best idea would be to make a reality show about it.

"Tune in for 'Top Pope!'"

[PeterG]

Yanks, we were talking about just that today, and the consensus was that it ain't ever going to happen. A North American Pope would split the church in half IMO.

[Scott Bails]

I read speculation earlier that there is a French Canadian who might be considered, but I agree with you, Peter. I can't see a NA Pope in our lifetimes.

[PeterG]

I know there's a Brazilian cardinal who is very well thought of in the Vatican.

[JKL2000]

I'm hoping for the first Pope with a vagina.

[Scott Bails]

Uh-oh.

Anyone ever heard of St. Malachy's Prophecy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes) :O

[NogbadTheBad]

There have been 3 Popes from Africa and 8 from Asia.So who are these? I'm kinda interested but can't be bothered to look it up myself.

[Scott Bails]

:lol

[Dave (in MA)]

Dave, in modern times when we say African or Asian pope we mean modern African or Asian.
The first use of the word "modern" in this thread.

[Dave (in MA)]

I'm kinda interested but can't be bothered to look it up myself.
Here you go (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22nationality+of+popes%22).

[PeterG]

The first use of the word "modern" in this thread.

Really Dave? What is this? Anyone who knows even the slightest bit about recent papal discussions knows what is meant by African or Asian pope.

[Dave (in MA)]

Words have specific meanings. I'm just waiting for the first media clown to refer to a possible African candidate as "African-American" instead of "black". I actually heard that usage during one Olympics to refer to an athlete from Africa. Maybe it'll be the same ditz on CNN who asked the other day if the big asteroid that's coming on Friday was caused by global warming.

[Jefferson James]

Carry on my wayward pope.....

[Vic2012]

Cracking up at JKL's post.....:lol

[mozo-pg]

It's all because...The Pope Smokes Dope!

[Dave (in MA)]

Holy smoke, somebody blew up the pope!

[Duncan Glenday]

(I'm not a Catholic, so feel free to ignore...)

Seems to me that the Pope ought to be fairly representative of the Catholic population. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine there's a huge Catholic population in Asia or Africa (no matter how you define those) compared to Latin America, or even North America.

So if he isn't going to be a European, I'd guess a Central/South American would be a logical choice.

This all assumes there are qualified candidate from those areas! There might not be.

[meimjustalawnmower]

Two weeks notice. That should give the company enough time to fill the position.

[NogbadTheBad]

(I'm not a Catholic, so feel free to ignore...)

Seems to me that the Pope ought to be fairly representative of the Catholic population. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine there's a huge Catholic population in Asia or Africa (no matter how you define those) compared to Latin America, or even North America.

So if he isn't going to be a European, I'd guess a Central/South American would be a logical choice.

This all assumes there are qualified candidate from those areas! There might not be.

According to Wikipedia

Number of Catholics

North America - 173MM (16%)
South America - 300MM (28%)
Asia - 120MM (11%)
Africa - 135MM (13%)
Europe - 284MM (26%)

Guess South America should get the nod.

[mozo-pg]

Guess South America should get the nod.

Just like hockey, Canada has one of the leads!

[Dave (in MA)]

I heard somewhere that Africa is the only region where the Catholic population is increasing to any great degree.

[NogbadTheBad]

From Vatican Insider

Catholics in the world are just under 1,196 million, while they were about 1,181 million in 2009. That is, an absolute increase of 15 million faithful, representing 1.3 percent. Moreover, over the past two years the presence of baptized Catholics worldwide has remained stable at 17.5 percent. As regards geographical distribution, Catholics have decreased in South American and especially in Europe.

Instead they have increased in Africa and South East Asia.

[Yanks2014]

Yanks, we were talking about just that today, and the consensus was that it ain't ever going to happen. A North American Pope would split the church in half IMO.

I don't know, I'd say there already is a big divide between the NA church and Europe. I'd never say never, as maybe the Vatican would want a stronger US presence.

[Yanks2014]

I heard somewhere that Africa is the only region where the Catholic population is increasing to any great degree.

Thanks to a large number of missionaries, India has seen quite an increase the past couple decades. Yesterday at my church they had a member speak, inviting people to a men's group seminar type of thing. The speaker was Indian and I'm assuming converted back in the 80's. And he's been at our church 20 years now. Terrific speaker actually, I'd love to hear his story.

[Yanks2014]

I'm hoping for the first Pope with a vagina.

Be nice. This thread has been surprisingly civil, would be nice to keep it that way. I look at today as quite the historical event, considering a Pope has not resigned like this in 600 years. Its difficult for any event to be the first of its kind in over 6 centuries.

[Scott Bails]

I don't know, I'd say there already is a big divide between the NA church and Europe. I'd never say never, as maybe the Vatican would want a stronger US presence.

I don't think the Vatican has any interest at all in a stronger U.S. presence.

[ronmac]

Be nice. This thread has been surprisingly civil, would be nice to keep it that way. I look at today as quite the historical event, considering a Pope has not resigned like this in 600 years. Its difficult for any event to be the first of its kind in over 6 centuries.

Well, a Pope with a vagina would beat that by over 1000 years.

[ronmac]

I don't think the Vatican has any interest at all in a stronger U.S. presence.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out why they would. Maybe it's our exceptionalism. ;)

[JKL2000]

Guess who's gonna have more time for PE soon?


"Why the hell was this moved to Off-Topic!?"
http://media.themalaysianinsider.com/images/uploads/2012/december2012/21/2112pope.jpg

[NogbadTheBad]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out why they would. Maybe it's our exceptionalism. ;)Well exceptionalism fits right in with the Vatican credo.

[ronmac]

Well exceptionalism fits right in with the Vatican credo.

Or is it exception?

[Oreb]

Seems to me that the Pope ought to be fairly representative of the Catholic population. Not at all: the Pope's not a popularly elected leader or meant as in some way "representative" of Catholics. He's a guide, a shepherd if you will, and consequently almost by definition atypical of the flock he shepherds.


I can't imagine there's a huge Catholic population in Asia or Africa The numbers are less significant than the rate of growth. Increasing vocations to the priesthood seem to be coming from those continents.

[PeterG]

I don't think the Vatican has any interest at all in a stronger U.S. presence.

I agree. MY view is that a US Pope would alienate not only Roman Catholics in much of Asia and Africa but also many of the Eastern Rite Catholics in the Middle East and North Africa. What many people forget is that the Roman in Roman Catholic is there for a reason, as there are dozens of Eastern Catholic churches in full communion with Rome often from countries that are not that friendly with the USA.

[walt]

Father Guido Sarducci would be a fine candidate to head the Holy See.


(disclaimer:lapsed Jew here.)

[NogbadTheBad]

Father Guido Sarducci would be a fine candidate to head the Holy See.


(disclaimer:lapsed Jew here.)You probably have the same input as a Militant Athiest.

[walt]

You probably have the same input as a Militant Athiest.

Ya think?

[PeterG]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/25688/peter-turkson-of-ghana-the-favorite-to-be-next-pope

[Lino]

Just the fact that there is geo-political considerations in choosing the next pope is proof of how little it is about religeon and how much it is about politics/power. The only consideration should be who is holiest man with the best vision to serve all Catholics around the world, no? What should it really matter where he comes from...unless there are other agendas.

[NogbadTheBad]

Just the fact that there is geo-political considerations in choosing the next pope is proof of how little it is about religeon and how much it is about politics/power. Sorry, you've lost me, I thought religion was all about politics and power?

[Progmatic]

Number of Cardinals per nation (sorry about Italian country names)

ITALIA -49
STATI UNITI -19
SPAGNA -10
BRASILE -9
FRANCIA -9
REPUBBLICA FEDERALE DI GERMANIA -9
INDIA -7
POLONIA -7
ARGENTINA -4
MESSICO -4
SVIZZERA -4
AUSTRALIA -3
CANADA -3
COLOMBIA -3
FILIPPINE -3
NIGERIA -3
PORTOGALLO -3
BELGIO -2
CILE -2
CINA -2
GRAN BRETAGNA -2
IRLANDA -2
LIBANO -2
PAESI BASSI -2
REPUBBLICA CECA -2
SLOVACCHIA -2
UCRAINA -2
UNGHERIA -2
ANGOLA -1
AUSTRIA -1
BOLIVIA -1
BOSNIA-ERZEGOVINA -1
CAMEROUN -1
COREA -1
COSTA D’AVORIO -1
CROAZIA -1
CUBA -1
ECUADOR -1
EGITTO -1
GHANA -1
GUINEA -1
HONDURAS -1
INDONESIA -1
IRAQ -1
KENYA -1
LETTONIA -1
LITUANIA -1
MALTA -1
MOZAMBICO -1
NICARAGUA -1
NUOVA ZELANDA -1
PERÚ -1
REPUBBLICA DEMOCRATICA DEL CONGO -1
REPUBBLICA DOMINICANA -1
ROMANIA -1
SENEGAL -1
SLOVENIA -1
SRI LANKA -1
SUD AFRICA -1
SUDAN -1
TANZANIA -1
THAILANDIA -1
UGANDA -1
VENEZUELA -1
VIÊT NAM -1
ZAMBIA -1

[Scott Bails]

The only consideration should be who is holiest man with the best vision to serve all Catholics around the world, no?

You're so cute. ;):p

[Lino]

I went to a Catholic highschool and we had several priests working as teachers, librarians, whatever. About 2 years after I got out, I was working part time at a local fitness club. One of the members was a priest who was a teacher/librarian at our hs. Real handsome dude, but gay looking as heck. lol So we would chat it up, it was fascinating to me at that time more just from a perspective of being out of school and being able to talk to a former teacher just as an acquaintance. So I would take the opportunity to ask him questions that I've always wanted to ask people of the cloth, but was too afraid in school. lol I remember one conversation and it was about the choosing of the pope. I asked him " so tell me father, do they really sit in a room and wait from some sign from God and all that stuff we are told?" He did the biggest eye roll you'd ever see in your life and said "it's ALLLL politics Lino, there's more wheeling and dealing going on than you can imagine" :)

[Scott Bails]

Personally, I think one of the St. Louis Cardinals should do it. In fact, I'm surprised Brian Griffin hasn't showed up in here to nominate Tony LaRussa.


But not the Arizona Cardinals - they suck. :D

[Casey]

Speaking as a "former" Catholic, my take is this: the next pope will be chosen to serve the institution's 2 interdependent goals of maintaining a subserviant flock & keeping strong in the face of ever-present & ever-increasing secularism. JPII was a perfect fit for the time. The choice has always been political; the sphere of potential interest changes.

I always found it odd that the Roman Catholic church & Communism, sworn enemies of each other, seem to have their most fervent growth in poor, overcrowded, & disenfranchised populations.

[ronmac]

I think it's about who would serve the Church, not who would serve the Catholics. I realize that might be splitting hairs, but...

[Scott Bails]

I think it's about who would serve the Church, not who would serve the Catholics. I realize that might be splitting hairs, but...

Not really. I see a clear distinction. *coughpedophilepriestscough*

[enpdllp]

Number of Cardinals per nation (sorry about Italian country names)

ITALIA -49
STATI UNITI -19
SPAGNA -10
BRASILE -9
FRANCIA -9
REPUBBLICA FEDERALE DI GERMANIA -9
INDIA -7
POLONIA -7
ARGENTINA -4
MESSICO -4
SVIZZERA -4
AUSTRALIA -3
CANADA -3
COLOMBIA -3
FILIPPINE -3
NIGERIA -3
PORTOGALLO -3
BELGIO -2
CILE -2
CINA -2
GRAN BRETAGNA -2
IRLANDA -2
LIBANO -2
PAESI BASSI -2
REPUBBLICA CECA -2
SLOVACCHIA -2
UCRAINA -2
UNGHERIA -2
ANGOLA -1
AUSTRIA -1
BOLIVIA -1
BOSNIA-ERZEGOVINA -1
CAMEROUN -1
COREA -1
COSTA D’AVORIO -1
CROAZIA -1
CUBA -1
ECUADOR -1
EGITTO -1
GHANA -1
GUINEA -1
HONDURAS -1
INDONESIA -1
IRAQ -1
KENYA -1
LETTONIA -1
LITUANIA -1
MALTA -1
MOZAMBICO -1
NICARAGUA -1
NUOVA ZELANDA -1
PERÚ -1
REPUBBLICA DEMOCRATICA DEL CONGO -1
REPUBBLICA DOMINICANA -1
ROMANIA -1
SENEGAL -1
SLOVENIA -1
SRI LANKA -1
SUD AFRICA -1
SUDAN -1
TANZANIA -1
THAILANDIA -1
UGANDA -1
VENEZUELA -1
VIÊT NAM -1
ZAMBIA -1

Do the numbers above include all cardinals or just the ones that can vote for the next pope (Under 80 years of age)?

Just a quick browse on the list and it appears that the cardinal representation is not proportional to the population of Catholics on each particular country.

[NogbadTheBad]

I always found it odd that the Roman Catholic church & Communism, sworn enemies of each other, seem to have their most fervent growth in poor, overcrowded, & disenfranchised populations.That's because they are both chasing support from the same population, it's about political power.

[Casey]

I think it's about who would serve the Church, not who would serve the Catholics.

Yes. Growing up during Vatican 2, we were taught that the "church" actually means "the people" & not the "institution." Bollocks. The institution & it's web of bureaucracy is paramount. Always was & always will be.

I'm no longer a believer in god, miracles, etc., but I believe that if Jesus came back & saw the businesses that were spawned in his name, he'd have a fit.

[Scott Bails]

I believe that if Jesus came back & saw the businesses that were spawned in his name, he'd have a fit.

http://www.shotinthedarkmysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/Jesus-300x261.jpg

[Chain]

First he joins Twitter and now he has no time for Popeing.

Twitter is evil !!!

[Garion81]

Maybe they will elect a woman. ;)

[Scott Bails]

I think they'd elect a Muslim first. ;)

[Dave (in MA)]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/25688/peter-turkson-of-ghana-the-favorite-to-be-next-pope
My first thought was that he didn't seem Popey enough, but then I pictured him in the beanie and the pointed hat and figured he'd do just fine. The only problem is he's almost as old as Pope John "William Henry Harrison" Paul I, and they probably want a guy who's gonna be around for a while--as long as they don't go too young: Benedict IX was 11, and served three terms as Pope, even though it's a lifetime position. He got kicked out of being Pope once by Sylvester III because he was such a screw-up, but then his posse threw out the other dude and he took over again, only to sell off the Papacy to Gregory VI less than a year later. Then he got seller's remorse and took back the throne like a big Indian Giver. I hope he gave the guy a refund. At this point there were 3 guys claiming to be Popes, so the king of Germany said screw you guys and stuck his own Pope in there, only to have him croak less than a year later. Not to be outdone, the next Pope lasted 3 weeks before supposedly dying of malaria. Maybe they should have a Vice Pope...

[Lino]

...a heartbeat away from the papacy!!! nahhhhh, they can't do that. Imagine the assasinations if they had VPs?? :P

[JKL2000]

Apparently the pope was actually visiting Boston when we had the snow, and he said that Nemo pounded him with twelve inches.

[Baribrotzer]

To speak halfway seriously, there were a couple of op-eds in the NY Times this morning. One of them said that if Benedict could do one final service to the Church, it would be to demand the resignation of a particular powerful figure, who I believe may be the Dean of the College of Cardinals. The man is even older than he is, and was one of the chief architects of the Church's cover-up policy in dealing with pedophiles. Apparently Benedict tried to do a serious job of cleaning house back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, and the old man - his superior at the time - turned a heavy thumbs-down on that.

[Scott Bails]

Well then FUCK that guy.

[Casey]

Question: Where was Phil Collins in all of this? I wonder...

[meimjustalawnmower]

Question: Where was Phil Collins in all of this? I wonder...
The are some powers that are even higher than his.

[PeterG]

Speaking as a "former" Catholic

You know what they say, there's no such thing as a "former" or ex-catholic unless of course you are now Jewish! ;) Once a Catholic always a Catholic even when you start going to a protestant church.

Factoid: most converts to Judaism (in the West) are Catholics; most converts to Catholicism are protestants.

[Oreb]

I prefer James Joyce's (or Stpehen Dedalus') take on it.

When asked whether he'd become a Protestant: "I said that I had lost my faith, not that I had lost my self-respect."

[Progmatic]

You know what they say, there's no such thing as a "former" or ex-catholic unless of cGourse you are now Jewish! ;) Once a Catholic always a Catholic even when you start going to a protestant church.

Factoid: most converts to Judaism (in the West) are Catholics; most converts to Catholicism are protestants.

And then we will become all Mormons. As soon as someone will baptise you in Utah:p

Btw this is one of my biggest issue against church. The fact that the church allegiance is forced upon you while you are kid through the will of your parents. You as individual are just a tool

[Vic2012]

most converts to Catholicism are protestants.

That's an interesting factoid. In my experience, growing up evangelical, it seemed like about 90 percent of the people who went to those churches were all cradle Catholics. Well, count me among those protestants (I hate that stupid, fucking word), or evangelicals that converted to the RCC. I don't do Catholicism or religion anymore though.

btw, I'm shocked this thread has survived as long as it has. When I saw the thread title I instantly thought, "oh man this thread is so closed" ... :lol

[PeterG]

Vic, I think we've shown before that we can discuss Catholicism on this forum without a flame war starting.

[PeterG]

I prefer James Joyce's (or Stpehen Dedalus') take on it.

When asked whether he'd become a Protestant: "I said that I had lost my faith, not that I had lost my self-respect."

Yes, that is a good one.

[ronmac]

...Once a Catholic always a Catholic...

Another myth.

[Trane]

So I would take the opportunity to ask him questions that I've always wanted to ask people of the cloth, but was too afraid in school. lol I remember one conversation and it was about the choosing of the pope. I asked him " so tell me father, do they really sit in a room and wait from some sign from God and all that stuff we are told?" He did the biggest eye roll you'd ever see in your life and said "it's ALLLL politics Lino, there's more wheeling and dealing going on than you can imagine" :)


At one point, it was all about poison and knifing in the back (literally and politically)... Maybe the poison part is passé now, but not the other...

[Progmatic]

At one point, it was all about poison and knifing in the back (literally and politically)... Maybe the poison part is passé now, but not the other...

you cannot blame them for that...it is old Roman tradition...:D

[Scott Bails]

Btw this is one of my biggest issue against church. The fact that the church allegiance is forced upon you while you are kid through the will of your parents. You as individual are just a tool

This has nothing to do with the church itself and everything to do with your parents, IMO. Your parents have the freewill to raise you as they please. They may feel pressure or guilt from the church, but when all's said and done, you're their responsibility, not the church's.

[Progmatic]

This has nothing to do with the church itself and everything to do with your parents, IMO. Your parents have the freewill to raise you as they please. They may feel pressure or guilt from the church, but when all's said and done, you're their responsibility, not the church's.

Are you saying that the church does not put the "pressure" on their people to baptise, and go though first communion and confirmation ? You obviously never pay attention to the sermons at the church!

[PeterG]

Are you saying that the church does not put the "pressure" on their people to baptise, and go though first communion and confirmation ? You obviously never pay attention to the sermons at the church!

Neither did you quite obviously ;) because the Catholic Church doesn't have sermons, it has homilies. And homilies deal with interpretations of scripture, they are not used to issue instructions to the congregation, that is the demesne of protestant sermons.

[Scott Bails]

Are you saying that the church does not put the "pressure" on their people to baptise, and go though first communion and confirmation ? You obviously never pay attention to the sermons at the church!

Um..you quoted me, but obviously didn't read it, as I clearly said:


They may feel pressure or guilt from the church, but when all's said and done, you're their responsibility, not the church's.

[Scott Bails]

Neither did you quite obviously ;) because the Catholic Church doesn't have sermons, it has homilies. And homilies deal with interpretations of scripture, they are not used to issue instructions to the congregation, that is the demesne of protestant sermons.

I've attended countless services where the sermon/homily/whatever is used to issue instructions to the congregation.

That may not be what was originally intended, but to say that it doesn't occur is just incorrect.

[ronmac]

This has nothing to do with the church itself and everything to do with your parents, IMO. Your parents have the freewill to raise you as they please. They may feel pressure or guilt from the church, but when all's said and done, you're their responsibility, not the church's.

I'm guessing it's from the parents' parents applying the same pressure. They just might not have known any better. We were forced to go every Sunday, as though it was a chore. We attended Sunday School and learned NOTHING about the meaning behind the scripture. We were told that unbelievers went to Hell and that the Jews were the bad guys.

Fear was always the motivating factor. How can anything positive come from that?

I learned much more from one viewing of "Jesus Christ Superstar" than I learned in all those years of church.

[Progmatic]

Neither did you quite obviously ;) because the Catholic Church doesn't have sermons, it has homilies. And homilies deal with interpretations of scripture, they are not used to issue instructions to the congregation, that is the demesne of protestant sermons.

The word does not matter...I never practiced Catholism in English language, so there :p
...however my first experience is that Catholic priest put the pressure on the people to get children completely integrated to church...and not only personally but also through interpretation of scriptures...does "original sin" or "bring the young ones to me" interpretation of scripture sounds familiar?

[Scott Bails]

I'm guessing it's from the parents' parents applying the same pressure. They just might not have known any better. We were forced to go every Sunday, as though it was a chore. We attended Sunday School and learned NOTHING about the meaning behind the scripture. We were told that unbelievers went to Hell and that the Jews were the bad guys.

Fear was always the motivating factor. How can anything positive come from that?

I learned much more from one viewing of "Jesus Christ Superstar" than I learned in all those years of church.

Yeah, that's fine. I don't dispute anything you're saying here.

But, ultimately, it's still the parents' responsibility to raise their children, not the church's. So, if the church dictates something that the parents disagree with, it's their duty to go against the church and raise their kids as they see fit.

This is probably why I can't be Catholic anymore - a priest to me is just a man who has been trained in the religion, not some absolute authority on how to live my life. If I have a religious question, I'll go to a priest. Marriage counseling from a priest just doesn't make sense.

[Progmatic]

But, ultimately, it's still the parents' responsibility to raise their children, not the church's. So, if the church dictates something that the parents disagree with, it's their duty to go against the church and raise their kids as they see fit.


Surely not...how can you disagree with Church instructions (e.g.http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a4.htm) if you are man of faith...it is not considered optional...

[Scott Bails]

Well, again, that's why I can't be a Catholic.

I know what's best for my children much, much more than the church does.

[ronmac]

Well, again, that's why I can't be a Catholic.

I know what's best for my children much, much more than the church does.

Yet, you use a snowflake as your profile picture. One of god's miracles right there.

Heathen.

[Scott Bails]

I have one foot in Christianity and one in Agnosticism. :)

[Progmatic]

Yet, you use a snowflake as your profile picture. One of god's miracles right there.
.

two problems with the intent of the statement

God does not equate to church
Basic Physics and Chemistry can explain how snowflake is created

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

But not how basic Chemistry and Physics are created...

[NogbadTheBad]

But not how basic Chemistry and Physics are created...
My guess is it wasn't due to an invisible tyrant who refuses to prove his existence but needs your money

[PeterG]

I've attended countless services where the sermon/homily/whatever is used to issue instructions to the congregation.

That may not be what was originally intended, but to say that it doesn't occur is just incorrect.

Are you talking about Protestant or Catholic services?

[Scott Bails]

Are you talking about Protestant or Catholic services?

Catholic.

[Progmatic]

But not how basic Chemistry and Physics are created...

I am certain we both have no answer to it...

but for fun...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIn3T6nDAo

[Duncan Glenday]

...
btw, I'm shocked this thread has survived as long as it has. When I saw the thread title I instantly thought, "oh man this thread is so closed" ... :lol

Been watching closely. So far, despite the fact that it discusses the politics of religion, it has not (yet?) descended into actual religious or political discussion ... and it must not.


Vic, I think we've shown before that we can discuss Catholicism on this forum without a flame war starting.

I hope you're right.

[Iszil]

I sent my resume; they rejected it because of my lack of experience with children.

[Iszil]

But not how basic Chemistry and Physics are created...

That's a mere consequence of the Big Bag. That cluster of matter and energy exploded and it had to arrange itself in some way; that's how chemistry and physics appeared.

Of course, one can say someone created the universe since, in the end, there are two possibilities: it was created by a "big architect" (won't use "god" since it can be attached to certain beliefs) or it has always existed. I have nothing against theism in its purest manner; it's religions that annoy me. If you believe someone created the universe that's fine, but why making up a whole story of how and when he did it, and then trying to shove it up the arses of others?

And talking about the Big Bang I'll leave you with a quote: "Asking what's before the Big Bang is like asking what's North the North Pole".

[PeterG]

That's a mere consequence of the Big Bag. That cluster of matter and energy exploded and it had to arrange itself in some way; that's how chemistry and physics appeared.



Okay, now the thread has descended into science, which is that group of clearly illusory theories for very clever people who think too much and who seem to change the same theories every week, so I'm out. ;)

[Poisoned Youth]

As this was a major news story, I can see the temptation of discussing it on a prog forum was just too strong to ignore.

But I think the news has run its course, and I feel like it's not considerate to the mods and those who respect the terms of service to insist on posting threads about religion and/or politics on this site.

We have private groups on PE for subjects like politics and religion and the OP even has a Catholic group - so it seems to me that system is a more appropriate forum for that discussion.