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View Full Version : New Bill Simmons Column on PEDs: Must Read!



JeffCarney
02-03-2013, 02:19 AM
As someone who has been moaning about the NFL and NBA getting somewhat of a "free pass" as MLB has taken the majority of the negative press about this, I found the latest from Bill Simmons to be an absolute breath of fresh air:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8904906/daring-ask-ped-question

moecurlythanu
02-03-2013, 09:45 AM
Excellent article. Thanks for posting.

Jerjo
02-03-2013, 11:44 AM
Damn, he nailed it.

JeffCarney
02-05-2013, 12:34 PM
Damn, he nailed it.

He sure did. I hope this opens up discussion in the mainstream press. I can understand how some people get sick of hearing about this stuff but until we really tackle the subject as sports fans and demand better, it isn't looking like it will change.

One also has to remember the "trickle down" factor and how this cheating impacts youth althletes who are striving to be as good as their "heroes."

Jerjo
02-05-2013, 01:01 PM
It's too bad Keith Olbermann is out of a job (unless the rumors of a CNN show have some meat) because he'd tear into this like a starving wolf. But Simmons is pretty widely read so hopefully it will get some traction and we can clean up professional sports.

enpdllp
02-08-2013, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the link Jeff.

Some interesting information, although I found the whole Sports Fan Me/ESPN Me kind of gimmicky and disingenuous. Hopefully this will serve as a lesson to Simmons and other sports writers to not buy the hype or serve as a PR agent for the athletes.

I am no boxing expert or enthusiast, but was kind of surprised when Simmons mentioned Juan Manuel Márquez fight with Pacquiao as an example of PED use. Simmons conveniently forgot to mention that Pacquiao has not such a clean record. Pacquiao did not want to take Olympic-style drug testing (Random blood testing) before his fight with Floyd Mayweather in 2010. Because of Pacquiao's reluctance with the random drug testing requested by Mayweather's camp, the parties could not reach an agreement and Pacquiao's camp decided not to proceed with fight. BTW, each fighter had a guaranteed paycheck of at least 25 million dollars if they would have gone with the fight.

Here is a link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130204/alex-rodriguez-ped-regiment-anthony-bosch-miami-new-times/?xid=ob_siwriters) with some interesting information on A-Rod's PED use latest findings.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 01:37 PM
He sure did. I hope this opens up discussion in the mainstream press. I can understand how some people get sick of hearing about this stuff but until we really tackle the subject as sports fans and demand better, it isn't looking like it will change.


It's not going to change, anyway.

You probably had the most outrage when all of this talk began years ago with Canseco's book, and nothing has changed.

Professional sports have weathered the storm, so you'll only see this stuff increase now, with each league paying lip service to the "self-righteous," as Vic likes to call anyone who actually cares about integrity in athletics. :roll

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 02:02 PM
It's not going to change, anyway.



Not sure I agree, and one big reason is lawsuits.

The NFL is obviously about to go through the ringer from lawsuits related to "concussion syndrome."

Just wait until some Attorney thinks to himself: Wait a minute, if the NFL's PED testing is out of date, and we can prove that their testing has been inferior to other leagues or even just the Olympic model, and if guys were that much bigger and stronger (even "superhaman") when making these "hits" that caused these concussions ...

You can see it coming, IMO.

The NBA might become a big story at some point due to their own attitude. David Stern's "It doesn't seem like something that would help in our sport ..." approach and their general brand model whereby they are selling their guys almost like Hollywood sells action movies might come back to bite them, because it just might offend enough people as arrogant enough to deserve real attention if it ever comes out that any of their "stars" are users.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Maybe. I don't see that concussion lawsuit going anywhere.

And now there's a pushback from fans saying that they don't care. They're fatigued by the story and have accepted that the leagues don't care enough about it.

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 02:14 PM
I don't see that concussion lawsuit going anywhere.


Why?

And is the question really that it "goes somewhere" or that being a big enough pain in their side, the NFL decides to clean things up quite a bit?

spellbound
02-08-2013, 02:17 PM
Someone once stated that baseball is the only sport that you don't have to be in good physical shape to play. Amazing, then, that professional baseball has so much steroid use. It must be for setting personal performance records, and therefore defies the spirit of sport by putting the individual above the team. And at some point, it ceases to be a sport and just becomes a show. Looks like the NFL and NBA are stinking up their sports, too. Although, as the article points out, they get a lot less press on the subject of PEDs. The casual fan like me, who likes to watch games but does not care to follow sports news of trades, injuries, corruption and criminal activity, might not even hear about it. But a fan loses more than his faith in athletes when he learns many of them have been caught cheating. When the sport itself loses its own spirit of fair competition on which it is based, the fan loses interest. It has to be more than just the Ray Lewis show, or the Adrian Peterson show, or the Barry Bonds show, or the Mark McGuire show. It has to be a team sport. Who wants the money they pay for tickets to a game, to go in a player's vein? Who wants their kid to look up to these PED sucking clowns?


It's not going to change, anyway.

Probably true. But we could all find some other way to spend our money. Rather than buying a ticket to a game or buying an official NFL or MLB or NBA t-shirt or cap, go spend your money on a prog concert instead. When a team wants your tax money to build a new stadium in your city, tell them to fuck off. I'd rather my money go to buying my favorite musical artist a beer or some weed than to have some millionaire sports figure spend it on PEDs.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 02:19 PM
Honestly, I don't think they have a case.

These guys were football players, who were paid to hit each other as hard as they possibly could. They knew what they were getting into - they weren't doing ballet.

And nothing will be a "pain in the NFL's side" until it hits their wallet. Goodell is obviously trying to balance America's love of the ferocious hits and violence of the game with the safety of the players. When things tip in one direction, he reacts.

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 02:28 PM
Honestly, I don't think they have a case.

These guys were football players, who were paid to hit each other as hard as they possibly could. They knew what they were getting into - they weren't doing ballet.


Well, get serious, they have a case. It's already way past that.

I just gave you another factor that could help them to make it a good case.

If the NFL was negligent and there are guys who can claim they were never on PEDs but suffered hits that caused permanent damage in a league that had guys flying around on superhuman drugs partially as a result of testing that can be shown by WADA to be a complete joke, it's going to make that case even better.

The NFL will have blood testing through within 2 years. Book it.

Not saying this would stop the problem, but it would be a small sign of porgress.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 02:44 PM
Well, we disagree.

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 03:20 PM
Well, we disagree.

I made several points, so I take it this applies across the board?

Common, of course.

Anyway ... here's a recent story that both the NBA and NFL expect blood testing within the next year. I have given them another as I know they'll try to sake around this for every last drop they can, but the pressure is growing so they might have to cave. My guess is that the excuse that the Unions and Leagues can't agree on this will run dry within two years:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/06/stern-says-he-expects-hgh-blood-tests-in-nba-in-year/

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 03:26 PM
I disagree with your fundamental premise that the leagues actually care about this. I disagree with your fundamental premise that they're moved by how some fans feel.

It's all about money, Jeff. If people stop watching and attending because of PED use, then you'll see change. Until then, you'll have the baseball model: "We test, but then you're still going to find out that the biggest stars were using well after the fact."

enpdllp
02-08-2013, 03:27 PM
Well, get serious, they have a case. It's already way past that.

I just gave you another factor that could help them to make it a good case.

If the NFL was negligent and there are guys who can claim they were never on PEDs but suffered hits that caused permanent damage in a league that had guys flying around on superhuman drugs partially as a result of testing that can be shown by WADA to be a complete joke, it's going to make that case even better.

The NFL will have blood testing through within 2 years. Book it.

Not saying this would stop the problem, but it would be a small sign of porgress.

If the NFL gets serious on PEDs, the size of the players will decrease and that will reduce the amount and intensity of the hits that could cause permanent damage to players.

The progress will depend on the type and frequency of the testing done and if the players association will allow a biological passport program implemented on the players. As it is right now, it is very easy to fly under the radar. Depending on what Armstrong will confess to USADA and/or WADA, there might be a possibility to develop newer tests to catch the cheaters using sophisticated methods to avoid being caught.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 03:34 PM
If the NFL gets serious on PEDs, the size of the players will decrease and that will reduce the amount and intensity of the hits that could cause permanent damage to players.


And fans will complain.


Ergo, this won't happen.

enpdllp
02-08-2013, 03:37 PM
And fans will complain.


Ergo, this won't happen.

If enough players start suing the league and winning their cases, the NFL might get serious.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 03:40 PM
We're going around in circles.


Suffice to say that the four major American professional sports leagues don't have the balls that the WADA has, and aren't willing to take the risk of getting serious about PEDs.

If they did, it would have happened by now. If they did, you'd see a more common-sense approach to this. But, we haven't seen that. We get lip-service and half-assed gestures to make fans think they care about the issue.

enpdllp
02-08-2013, 04:01 PM
We're going around in circles.


Suffice to say that the four major American professional sports leagues don't have the balls that the WADA has, and aren't willing to take the risk of getting serious about PEDs.

If they did, it would have happened by now. If they did, you'd see a more common-sense approach to this. But, we haven't seen that. We get lip-service and half-assed gestures to make fans think they care about the issue.

They might not have the balls, but they will do whatever is in their best interest ($$$) to reduce or eliminate potential lawsuits. The league did not have the issues they are having right now with the "concussion syndrome" lawsuits. Implementing a serious anti-PED program on the NFL will be a step in the right direction and will avoid future lawsuits from players. If the players start winning lawsuits against the league, you will see a change in their anti-PED program.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 04:16 PM
Again, I don't think the NFL will be losing any lawsuits anytime soon.

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 04:25 PM
I disagree with your fundamental premise that the leagues actually care about this. I disagree with your fundamental premise that they're moved by how some fans feel..


I see. Well then actually we do agree. My premise wasn't meant to be anything of the kind.

The leagues DON'T care. The only thing making them care is some public pressure, and that should be a thousand times what it is, IMO.

But what public pressure there is does seem to be gaining a little steam in terms of the NFL and NBA being "called out." That might help, a little. But it isn't anything to do with the leagues "caring."




It's all about money, Jeff. If people stop watching and attending because of PED use, then you'll see change. Until then, you'll have the baseball model: "We test, but then you're still going to find out that the biggest stars were using well after the fact."

100% agreed.

I've no idea why you felt we were disagreeing on this. I must not be expressing myself well today. Or what I have sometimes suspected with you is true, and that is that you tend to sort of automatically disagree with me.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 04:31 PM
Oh, I hope I don't come off that way. Let's say that I misunderstood what you said.

I do disagree with you and enpdllp about the lawsuit, however. Every player knows what they're getting into when they sign that NFL contract. They may not be taking PEDs, but they're in the locker rooms, training rooms, and training camps with all of their teammates who are taking them, so they can't claim ignorance.

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Oh, I hope I don't come off that way. Let's say that I misunderstood what you said.

I do disagree with you and enpdllp about the lawsuit, however. Every player knows what they're getting into when they sign that NFL contract. They may not be taking PEDs, but they're in the locker rooms, training rooms, and training camps with all of their teammates who are taking them, so they can't claim ignorance.

Was every player told about the possibility of concussions that could cause permanent damage and life-threatening disorders?

Were they given detailed, scientific information and studies discussing this?

Were they advised that the helmets used might not protect them from this?

If so, then you are probably right.

I'm not saying I don't follow your point; I do.

But lawsuits don't always follow such "this should have been obvious" logic. And maybe in this case it isn't that simple anyway.

enpdllp
02-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Again, I don't think the NFL will be losing any lawsuits anytime soon.

Maybe you are right that they would not be losing any lawsuits. They will be settling out of court.:p

JeffCarney
02-08-2013, 04:47 PM
Maybe you are right that they would not be losing any lawsuits. They will be settling out of court.:p

There are about 140 lawsuits involving 3300 ex-NFL players ...

Let me go out on a limb and bet that all 140 of those lawsuits won't be dismissed.

Also, since 2007, the NFL has distributed close to 20 million gettings ex-players to enroll in the "88 Plan." They get 100k a year coverage in medical expenses if hospitalized and 88k if living at home.

Scott Bails
02-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Maybe you guys are right. I probably have too much faith in our justice system. They did rule in favor of that idiot old lady a settlement when she spilled hot coffee, right?

Vic2012
02-09-2013, 07:33 AM
with each league paying lip service to the "self-righteous," as Vic likes to call anyone who actually cares about integrity in athletics.

Scott, I don't remember what we were talking about on that other thread when I called you guys a bunch of self-righteous phonies, but I don't think it was about PEDs. But either way, you're entitled to your opinions. You (and a couple others) just come off very judgemental sometimes. Maybe it's my issue and my perception is all screwed up, but I just sense a superior attitude sometimes and it burns my butt. Maybe I'm just older and more cynical. I shouldn't let it rankle me so much but it does. From here on out I'll avoid these topics with you. If I've been antagnositic, I apologize. You have a right to your opinions without some member always picking a fight with you.

I've stated my opinion about PEDs and sports on other threads so I don't have anything to add here. I'll just say my 2 cents worth as always. All sports are dirty. All competitive sports, professional, amature, etc. are dirty. There is no integrity in competitive sports today (and probably never). It's not just the NFL, NBA, MLB, it also includes the Olympics, the World Cup, etc. The world would a better place without PEDs (and guns, poverty, crime, etc.) but PEDs aren't going away. So my thinking is, if I call myself a man of integrity then I should stop watching all big league professional sports altogether and just watch women's collegiate softball, basketball and soccer (or Pee Wee leagues). Or, just look at it as pure entertainment. It's nothing important to me. I don't buy tickets to go see NBA games or NFL games, so I'm not enabling anyone. I just watch the games on TV and that's it.

Where we agree Scott, is that $$$$$$$ is what's driving highly competitive sports leagues. I just don't ever see PEDs going away. Even if all sports were somehow cleaned up there'd always be some mad scientist in some lab cooking up some new substance that won't be detected, and atheletes will take it to get an edge, or just to stay competitive. There is no integrity in sports (imo), it's just pure entertainment to me. We haven't even gotten into the gambling aspect of all this either. So PEDs + gambling in sports = no integrity.

A couple years ago I tried to get into UFC/MMA. It seemed to be the new rage in boxing for a while so I started watching it. After a couple months I couldn't stand it anymore. I tried watching a match at a sportsbar last weekend and I could barely watch it (there was nothing else on). I'm amazed that there haven't been groups of people organizing protests to have that sport banned. It is, without a doubt, the most barbaric sport I've ever seen that is so popular in this country. Where is the integrity in MMA? I say none. And you gotta know that these fighters are on all sorts of drugs. I'm amazed that there aren't people dying regularly from roundhouse kicks to the face, and being pounded into a lump of raw hamburger.

There's a lot more I could say about "integrity" in sports and all that but I just don't want to get into all this negative shit. I'd rather talk about music.

polmico
02-09-2013, 09:32 AM
Great article.

A couple of things really stood out. This:
"Anyone with a public forum should feel a certain responsibility to the greater good, whether you have a blog, a column, a podcast, a radio show or a steady TV gig."

We accept all sorts of things now that we shouldn't. Everyone can express themselves to millions of people in seconds. No consideration to grammar, spelling, racial or sexual or gender sensitivity--just whatever stupid thing enters a person's mind is instantly available for everyone to see. That's a scary thing.

And this:
"What's the difference between taking HGH and Toradol, anyway? What does the word "performance enhancer" really mean? It's OK to borrow a dead person's ligament to regain your 95-mph fastball, but it's not OK to boost your testosterone for those same results? It's OK to travel to Germany to inject stem cells into your damaged knee to stimulate recovery and regeneration, but it's not OK to replace your blood with better blood to increase your stamina?"

In the baseball thread, I argued that greenies (amphetamines) were just as much a PED as steroids and HGH. I still believe that, and I believe that Toradol needs to be put right up there too. I saw a piece on Real Sports last year documenting its use, and everyone uses it in the NFL. Numbed, 'roided up, oxygenated and overinflated, today's NFL players are hurtling themselves head first at each other because they can't feel anything.

This was the first Super Bowl in a long time that I didn't watch. I'm starting to feel apathetic about the NFL. Of course, it's stupid to think that NHL and MLB players are any cleaner.

Scott is right. The sports won't be clean as long as $$$ is involved.

Bill Simmons is right. We are collectively sticking our heads into the sand to ignore it.

polmico
02-09-2013, 09:34 AM
I just don't ever see PEDs going away.

They've always been there. Dozens of players in the HOF in the NFL were 'roided up in the '70s. Dozens of baseball players are in the HOF who were taking speed every day during the '60s and '70s.

Vic2012
02-09-2013, 10:16 AM
They've always been there. .

Of course they have. It doesn't make it right, but they ain't going away. That's why I keep saying, you either decide not to watch sports at all, or just take it as pure entertainment and you keep your integrity.

JeffCarney
02-09-2013, 01:57 PM
They've always been there. Dozens of players in the HOF in the NFL were 'roided up in the '70s. Dozens of baseball players are in the HOF who were taking speed every day during the '60s and '70s.

"Speed" has very little place in the conversation, IMO. I'm always surprised that people equate taking "greenies" with PEDs. There aren't even in the same ballpark. Taking an Amphetamine may be "wrong" or even argued to "enhance performance," but to compare guys taking that stuff in the 60s with guys taking stuff to put on 20 pounds of muscle mass in six months is just not logic I can follow.

polmico
02-09-2013, 02:41 PM
^But that was Simmons' point. Where does the performance enhancing line get drawn? And if it's illegal performance enhancing, then what does it matter the extent to which the performance is enhanced?

JeffCarney
02-11-2013, 12:26 AM
^But that was Simmons' point. Where does the performance enhancing line get drawn? And if it's illegal performance enhancing, then what does it matter the extent to which the performance is enhanced?

Yeah, and I guess the point is that if we talked openly about this stuff we could have some opinions voiced and then discussed about what the "lines" actually are.

But people who defend steroid users in baseball by talking about "greenies" are well of the mark, IMO.

JeffCarney
02-13-2013, 09:07 PM
Oh look, it's David Stern throwing fans a bone after the recent Bill Simmons column. Yeah, I'm sure Turkoglu is juicing but "star" players never touch the stuff.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8944820/hedo-turkoglu-orlando-magic-suspended-20-games-positive-test