Roger Waters ‘Angry’ Over State of Music Industry: ‘It’s Just Stealing!’

[progman1975]

The difficulties that younger musicians are facing in trying to make a living these days have not gone unnoticed by the generations that came before them. In a new interview, Roger Waters lashed out at the people who have created the technology that has resulted in putting less money in the hands of artists.

Speaking to the Times, the former Pink Floyd bassist calls himself “enormously privileged to have been born in 1943 and not 1983, to have been around when there was a music business and the takeover of Silicon Valley hadn’t happened and, in consequence, you could still make a living writing and recording songs and playing them to people.”

And while Waters admits that the diminishing sales of records “doesn’t change my life in any way,” he is still “angry” at “this gallery of rogues and thieves [who interject] themselves between the people who aspire to be creative and their potential audience and steal every f—ing cent anybody ever made and put it in their pockets to buy f—ing huge mega-yachts and Gulfstream Fives with. These…thieves! It’s just stealing! And that they’re allowed to get away with it is just incredible.”

However, Waters also does save some of his ire for the audience, who have taken full advantage of the technology. “I blame the punters as well to some extent,” he continues, “a whole generation that’s grown up who believe that music should be free. I mean why not make everything free? Then you could walk into a shop and say ‘I like that television’ and you walk out with it. No! Somebody made that and you have to buy it! ‘Oh, I’ll just pick up few apples.’ No! Some farmer grew those and brought them here to be sold!”

Waters’ words echo those spoken by Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons of Kiss to Billboard last week. “I think we’re very fortunate to have come out when we did, and to not be relying upon an industry that has basically committed suicide,” Stanley said.

“It’s really sad for the new artists. Where’s the next Elvis [Presley], where’s the next Beatles, where’s the [Led] Zeppelin? They’re out there but they don’t have a chance […] What are they gonna do? Give away their music for free? They’re gonna be living in their mom’s basement, unfortunately, and they’re never gonna get the chance that we did which is the saddest part of all for the new bands because there should always be a new generation of bands.”

[bob_32_116]

^^ No problem, we have ******* Idol! (Insert the nationality of your choice.)

[JKL2000]

Primarily you have to blame the music industry that long before the technology was even a factor, decided it was no longer interested in developing artists that were any good. Once there's no more decent music, who cares if people are paying for it? That problem needs to be fixed first.

[bob_32_116]

Primarily you have to blame the music industry that long before the technology was even a factor, decided it was no longer interested in developing artists that were any good. Once there's no more decent music, who cares if people are paying for it? That problem needs to be fixed first.
which is why we're here, right?

[Splicer]

If the store owner is stealing all the profit, it doesn't matter how many jars of jam the customers break.

[bob_32_116]

Getting serious for a moment, I think some of those early blues and rock'n'roll singers might have something to say about Waters' suggestion that the music business has lost its sense of ethics in the Internet age. Some of those performers were exploited to within an inch of their lives. People like Chuck Berry might be financially secure now, but they paid their dues - literally and figuratively.

What Waters says is true, but it's not the whole story. It wasn't really until the mid-60s that artists began to exert any real control over their careers. The Beatles were probably the pioneers of that, and that was basically because they could. By the time people like Pink Floyd, Genesis and Yes came along, it was becoming the norm for artists to take creative control over their own recordings. Moreover, the volume of sales was such that a band in the UK or the USA could make a comfortable living even if they were in a niche market like the new-fangled "progressive rock", and were experimenting and taking chances. Someone like Elton John, who was swindled out of untold amounts of money until he woke up to the fact that he was being taken for a ride, could still manage to bank so much that he could afford to play wherever he wanted and take whatever risks he wanted with his albums.

Not to sound over-dramatic, but I think we have lived through a comparatively brief golden era of musical creativity, whose like we may not see again.

[Dana5140]

To me, Roger is simply stating the obvious. Maybe the only place I would disagree is that the technology itself is agnostic here; it is the people who profit off of it that he is upset about. And he is upset that this has led so many people to believe they can simply take the creative efforts of others.

As a person who wrote textbooks I can say I won't do it any more. Students no longer buy them, thinking they can just find the assigned reading somewhere, and who want only that assigned reading and nothing more. I put 4 years into my first book, but now, it is not worth it since it is impossible to \prevent the theft of the effort.

[Jerjo]

The rich get richer, the artists get poorer. Looks like Apple is tired of people streaming their music for free when they should be buying or streaming it from iTunes

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/05/04/apple_beats_relaunch_the_company_wants_record_labe ls_to_kill_spotify_s_free.html

[Splicer]

5330

[Skullhead]

It's been a steady decline since the dawn of the digital age.
A lot of great music, and my opinion is that the music was better before all the Protools and sampling, looping, fixing madness.
Sure, musicians could punch in the studio, but they still had to play it. Now kids are making songs and albums without even lifting an instrument.

It's been a era of lifeless, sterile nonsense for way too long. Prog artists are just as guilty of endlessly over producing their work also.

It's no different than painters being shoved under the bus for digital posers pretending to be the real deal. Techo music is the digital version of poster art.

Computers have not made music better. It's lowered the bar and created a generation of pretenders who amuse themselves to death.

[Jeremy Bender]

I think a distinction needs to be made between

a) Performers who willingly sign horrible contracts and get snookered out of money
b) Performers who are swindled and/or lead in to bad decisions by their managers
c) Jimi Hendrix, who would apparently sign anything put in from of him

a) is a lot of people, there simply wasn't a choice for an unsigned band for a lot of the record industry's existence. Elton John had the standard seven seven album > two albums a year > four stand-alone singles contract with Dick James Music (MCA in the US) until he formed his own Rocket Records in 1976 with Bernie Taupin and others. It's amazing how many managers were/are "a friend of the band who decided to be our manager even though he knew squat about the music business" types, the record companies ate/eat those people for breakfast. Then there's Led Zeppelin and Peter Grant. From the Zep Wikipedia entry, bold mine:

In November 1968, Grant secured a $143,000 [$915,000 in today's money] advance contract from Atlantic Records, which was then the biggest deal of its kind for a new band. Atlantic were a label with a catalogue of mainly blues, soul, and jazz artists, but in the late 1960s they began to take an interest in British progressive rock acts. Record executives signed Led Zeppelin without having ever seen them. Under the terms of their contract, the band had autonomy in deciding when they would release albums and tour, and had the final say over the contents and design of each album. They would also decide how to promote each release and which tracks to release as singles. They formed their own company, Superhype, to handle all publishing rights.

That's how you do it, kids. Also, the record company wanted to put them on their lesser Atco label, but Zeppelin insisted on being on the same label as Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles and others.

b) is a long and depressing list. There's the out-and-out theft of people like the scumbag Mike Jeffery, who ripped off both The Animals and Jimi Hendrix or Allen Klein, stupidly hired by both the Rolling Stones and The Beatles.

c) The Band of Gypsys album exists largely because Hendrix signed a contract in 1966 and the people who owned the contract demanded he fulfill it. All those horrible albums released after he died with session musician overdubs are a direct result of his business affairs being a disaster.

Sure, record companies are largely soul-destroying leeches, but there's more than enough dumb people in bands and their management to help the record companies make fortunes.

[trurl]

Geeze, the next thing you know Waters will be a Capitalist.

[firth5th]

Stopped reading after "Roger Waters angry"

[bob_32_116]

This thread is so depressing, I expect it to be the inspiration for Steven Wilson's next "concept album".

[bob_32_116]

Computers have not made music better. It's lowered the bar and created a generation of pretenders who amuse themselves to death.

Indeed. It's enough to drive anyone up the wall.

[bob_32_116]

Computers have not made music better. It's lowered the bar and created a generation of pretenders who amuse themselves to death.

Indeed. It's enough to drive anyone up the wall.

[Skullhead]

Indeed. It's enough to drive anyone up the wall.

They act like Animals.

[Facelift]

Hopefully this will make Waters angry enough to make a new concept album. He seems to need to be angry about stuff in order to make new albums.

[GuitarGeek]

Getting serious for a moment, I think some of those early blues and rock'n'roll singers might have something to say about Waters' suggestion that the music business has lost its sense of ethics in the Internet age. Some of those performers were exploited to within an inch of their lives. People like Chuck Berry might be financially secure now, but they paid their dues - literally and figuratively.


Hence, Frank Banali's wisecrack about how "there are blues artists laughing at us", when discussing Quiet Riot's "greatest bad record deal of all time".

And I still say people have been borrowing records, either from the library or from friends or whatever, and copying them onto cassette for decades. They've been recording TV shows, concerts, videos, etc off TV since VCR's were first introduced. I couldn't have been the only person doing that dren back in the 80's. It's not like the idea of "getting something for free" was suddenly invented by that turkey who came up with Napster.

[GuitarGeek]

c) The Band of Gypsys album exists largely because Hendrix signed a contract in 1966 and the people who owned the contract demanded he fulfill it. All those horrible albums released after he died with session musician overdubs are a direct result of his business affairs being a disaster.
.

I wonder what Jimi would have done in 69-70 if he hadn't a contractual obligation to fulfill. Maybe the way the album was put together (ie a quickie live recording) was dictated by legal matters, but I suspect that music would have happened one way or another. Jimi wanted to prove he hadn't "sold out to whitey", and Band Of Gypsys was part of making that point.

As far as the "I'm dead but I'm still making new records" thing, that wasn't exclusive to Jimi. Buddy Holly's record label was still releasing "new" music" from him a decade after he made the mistake of trying to fly out of Clear Lake, Iowa in a snowstorm. Ditto for John Coltrane. The Village Vanguard and classic quartet studio recording boxes both had a gaggle of recordings that had never been released, and those came out 30 years after Trane went home!

[Trane]

no time to read now, but just in case this goes to private ;)

yup, old habits die hard
;)

[Scrotum Scissor]

I think we have lived through a comparatively brief golden era of musical creativity, whose like we may not see again.

Wow. Being someone who collects, writes about, plays and performs fairly 'progressive' rock since I was in my teens, I can tell you that some of the most exciting, innovative and creative music I've heard these past 30 years (including stuff from 20 years before that) - is actually being made right now. The fact that artists are no longer earning any money from their craft is a wholly different matter, and a severely problematic one at that - meaning that the music is no longer "brought out" but must be seeked out; through word, knowledge and sheer enthusiasm and curiosity on the part of the listener/consumer. Why are people even expecting former "stars" to produce interesting art when these are in their 60s/70s?

[BarryLI]

Gotta admit I was shocked the word "Jews" didn't make it onto his blame list.

[Oreb]

Gotta admit I was shocked the word "Jews" didn't make it onto his blame list. Like all good Eurolefties Rog uses the codeword "Israel" to mask his antisemitism.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Like all good Eurolefties Rog uses the codeword "Israel" to mask his antisemitism.

Or "zionist". Since "cosmopolitan" doesn't serve its duty any longer.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

it is sad indeed that musicians can not make a living doing what they love these days

[Brian Griffin]

I'm disappointed, as I expected he was referring to Progression magazine

BG

[Plasmatopia]

It's been a steady decline since the dawn of the digital age.
A lot of great music, and my opinion is that the music was better before all the Protools and sampling, looping, fixing madness.


I'm intrigued. I've never heard that before. Can you elaborate?

[bob_32_116]

Gotta admit I was shocked the word "Jews" didn't make it onto his blame list.
What, if anything, does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

[moecurlythanu]

I'm intrigued. I've never heard that before. Can you elaborate?

You naughty boy you.

[Casey]

I'm amazed everyone missed the most jarring note of the OP: "Waters' words echo those spoken by Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons of Kiss." Reminds me of the time Frank Zappa & Donny Osmond teamed up to go toe-to-toe against Tipper Gore.


:up

[Scrotum Scissor]

^

:lol

[BarryLI]

What, if anything, does this have to do with the topic of this thread? Well, when Roger gets cranky nowadays it's usually over the ME, was a tad surprised is all.

[smackiepipe]

When I read the threat title I could only picture this:

5332

[Vic2012]

c) The Band of Gypsys album exists largely because Hendrix signed a contract in 1966 and the people who owned the contract demanded he fulfill it. All those horrible albums released after he died with session musician overdubs are a direct result of his business affairs being a disaster.

Bad for Jimi, I guess but good for his legions of fans. We'd never have "Machine Gun" (that particular live version) if it wasn't for the contractual obligation. I've never been a big fan of live albums but BOG is my favorite live record of all time. At one time it was my favorite Hendrix album. Don't read this as if I'm defending those scum-sucking, corporate swine (the record bizz), I'm just saying that for an album that was a quicky, live, contractual obligation, Jimi produced one HELL of a live record.

[Classic Progressive]

Yeah what could he know about it.

[Drake]

Amazing music is being made right now all over the world.

[izz_brian]

I don't want to come across as negative, especially because I am at peace with the fact that I will not ever be making a living from music. However, it occurs to me that the "lucky" artists who did so well in their own eras either show no concern for current artists' plight, or (like Roger Waters and the KISS gents) lament the current state but offer no alternative models. The only artists with $$$ that I see trying to "fix the system" are only addressing their own revenue streams (e.g., Jay-Z et al's Tidal), with no mechanism to support the yet-to-be established artists. It's like saying, "Glad I'M not homeless," as you walk past a starving man while you chomp down on a footlong hoagie.

[GuitarGeek]

Like all good Eurolefties Rog uses the codeword "Israel" to mask his antisemitism.

Oh yes, I keep forgetting that anyone who criticizes Israel government is immediately branded antisemitic. :roll I guess there's no chance anyone could have a legitimate beef with the Israeli government, huh?

[at least 100 dead]

So typical of Roger – he’s always looking for things to complain about. Why doesn’t he take comfort in the fact that PewDiePie earns $4 million dollars a year with his youtube channel instead?

If you’re any good, you’ll make your millions. Look at Katy Perry. Find a positive role-model. If those Cuneiform “artist” (translation: losers) got off their asses and bothered to write actual songs with real melodies and decent beats, they’d be partying on a yacht too. Complain’ ain’t changin’

[Phlakaton]

The writing has been on the wall for a long time. I think a lot of the artists getting boned over their cut of things have some responsibility to recognize that it isnt like it used to be. I dont think you can rely on a label in the same way now - and you need to be independent to an extent with your craft. There are lots of ways to market yourself and your music now (free too!). Its why I use bandcamp more than any other site for discovering and buying music now. The artists (as I understand it) at least get a decent cut of the money. Trying to fit a square into a round paradigm now is basically gonna strangle you. Roger can be a good mouthpiece and people will notice because he is a large scale figure in this business... if he sheds light on an obvious problem - more power to him and people to take it in. The shift is happening now and tech is driving a huge pile of crazy at the moment.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

last month I saw Billy Cobham and he mentioned the CDs that they had for sale after the show saying 'On the CDs is just us 4 you see right here. We are now the record company'

I thought it was cool and bought a CD, but I sure hope he's making more than just the money from the 25-50 CDs he sells each night on the tour

[Scrotum Scissor]

Oh yes, I keep forgetting that anyone who criticizes Israel government is immediately branded antisemitic. :roll I guess there's no chance anyone could have a legitimate beef with the Israeli government, huh?

I won't get into this - but just who exactly said anything of the sort?

[Skullhead]

Wow. Being someone who collects, writes about, plays and performs fairly 'progressive' rock since I was in my teens, I can tell you that some of the most exciting, innovative and creative music I've heard these past 30 years (including stuff from 20 years before that) - is actually being made right now. The fact that artists are no longer earning any money from their craft is a wholly different matter, and a severely problematic one at that - meaning that the music is no longer "brought out" but must be seeked out; through word, knowledge and sheer enthusiasm and curiosity on the part of the listener/consumer. Why are people even expecting former "stars" to produce interesting art when these are in their 60s/70s?

Don't you think the bar has been lowered though?
One can make insanely complex music now without even picking up an instrument and have it sound perfect to untrained ears. So therefore, no one cares anymore because it's a given now. 30 or 40 years ago, you could impress people with great music, now it's a yawn.

[Skullhead]

last month I saw Billy Cobham and he mentioned the CDs that they had for sale after the show saying 'On the CDs is just us 4 you see right here. We are now the record company'

I thought it was cool and bought a CD, but I sure hope he's making more than just the money from the 25-50 CDs he sells each night on the tour

Recording music professionally used to be a real art in and of itself. Just because you are Billy Cobham, doesn't mean you know how to make a recording that can really move a person emotionally. All the modern gizmos make editing and fixing things a breeze, but there is more to it than that. A lot of great music was made before computers got involved.

[Gruno]

It's no different than painters being shoved under the bus for digital posers pretending to be the real deal. Techo music is the digital version of poster art.


MitM…. Paging MitM!

[at least 100 dead]

Don't you think the bar has been lowered though?
One can make insanely complex music now without even picking up an instrument and have it sound perfect to untrained ears.

I doubt that. Can you give one example?

[Skullhead]

So typical of Roger – he’s always looking for things to complain about. Why doesn’t he take comfort in the fact that PewDiePie earns $4 million dollars a year with his youtube channel instead?

If you’re any good, you’ll make your millions. Look at Katy Perry. Find a positive role-model. If those Cuneiform “artist” (translation: losers) got off their asses and bothered to write actual songs with real melodies and decent beats, they’d be partying on a yacht too. Complain’ ain’t changin’

Cuneiform is more of a role model than Katy Perry. There is something called quality.

[Skullhead]

I doubt that. Can you give one example?

Just listen to some of the new techo music. 100's of tracks blended into a sonic web of complex sounds where no one plays anything.

The kids love it because it sounds so amazing to them.. just like Tales from Topographic Oceans did in 74.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Cuneiform is more of a role model than Katy Perry. There is something called quality.

There's som'tn called big breasts as well, and for that we'd take Katy.

But yeah - Cuneiform's easily the best and greatest damn music label in the whole friggin' world, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

[at least 100 dead]

Just listen to some of the new techo music. 100's of tracks blended into a sonic web of complex sounds where no one plays anything.



Can you post a specific example?

[Skullhead]

I'm intrigued. I've never heard that before. Can you elaborate?

You're kidding, right?

[battema]

You're kidding, right?

I'm not. Examples, please.

[Skullhead]

Can you post a specific example?

I can't even stand to listen to the stuff, yet alone waste my time trying to find a link for you..
just go on youtube and type in EDM 2014.

[at least 100 dead]

Hmmm….that stuff does not sound particularly complex. Some parts just have a bass drum with some lead and bass synth going. (Admittedly, I just had a cursory listen.)

The virtuoso aspect so often fetishized in certain prog circles does not appear to be the aim of those tracks at all. It’s not like they’re trying to fool us into believing that there are real musician delivering humanly impossible performances. It's rather deliberately artificial.

[Facelift]

If you’re any good, you’ll make your millions.

I couldn't possibly disagree more, and this has nothing to do with prog vs. pop or anything like that.

If you make music that has mass appeal *and* qualify on several non-musical criteria *and* get a bit lucky, you can make your millions.

But first and foremost, the music has to have commercial potential. Music without a lot of commercial potential isn't going to make millions no matter what else is gotten right. I would think that the people making it (though they still want to get paid for what they do sell, obviously) are pretty well aware of this.

[Scott Bails]

Recording music professionally used to be a real art in and of itself. Just because you are Billy Cobham, doesn't mean you know how to make a recording that can really move a person emotionally. All the modern gizmos make editing and fixing things a breeze, but there is more to it than that. A lot of great music was made before computers got involved.


Just listen to some of the new techo music. 100's of tracks blended into a sonic web of complex sounds where no one plays anything.

The kids love it because it sounds so amazing to them.. just like Tales from Topographic Oceans did in 74.

I don't understand your argument.

Computers make it easier for some people to make music. So what? That has no relation whatsoever to the quality of music that is available today.

[at least 100 dead]

I couldn't possibly disagree more, and this has nothing to do with prog vs. pop or anything like that.


^^ I was being facetious with the "only good ones make millions" - of course, that's not true. If it was, Cardiacs and Wyatt and Thinking Plague (and so many others we don’t even know about) would be swimming in cash.

[Facelift]

I don't understand your argument.

Computers make it easier for some people to make music. So what? That has no relation whatsoever to the quality of music that is available today.

He hates computers. He has made this pretty clear over the past months.

His hell must be an IDM party.

[at least 100 dead]

I don't understand your argument.

Computers make it easier for some people to make music. So what? That has no relation whatsoever to the quality of music that is available today.

^^ This.

[Facelift]

^^ I was being facetious with the "only good ones make millions" - of course, that's not true. If it was, Cardiacs and Wyatt and Thinking Plague (and so many others we don’t even know about) would be swimming in cash.

Sorry - I totally missed the sarcasm.

[Plasmatopia]

You're kidding, right?

Dead serious, as are all my posts.

[Scott Bails]

He hates computers. He has made this pretty clear over the past months.


Yeah, I gathered that, too.

And that's fine. But his argument is silly.

[at least 100 dead]

Sorry - I totally missed the sarcasm.

Sorry about that. Sarcasm doesn’t always translate into zeros and ones.

I blame computers! :p

[progeezer]

Oh yes, I keep forgetting that anyone who criticizes Israel government is immediately branded antisemitic. :roll I guess there's no chance anyone could have a legitimate beef with the Israeli government, huh?I have a legitimate beef with not necessarily the Israeli government, but with Netanyahu's agenda. You can't call the Palestinians and other Arab nations terrorists as long as you equally participate in the same kinds of shit.

For the few who don't know it, I'm a Jew.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I have a legitimate beef with not necessarily the Israeli government, but with Netanyahu's agenda. You can't call the Palestinians and other Arab nations terrorists as long as you equally participate in the same kinds of shit.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Scott Bails]

I have a legitimate beef with not necessarily the Israeli government, but with Netanyahu's agenda. You can't call the Palestinians and other Arab nations terrorists as long as you equally participate in the same kinds of shit.


:up

[GuitarGeek]

I have a legitimate beef with not necessarily the Israeli government, but with Netanyahu's agenda. You can't call the Palestinians and other Arab nations terrorists as long as you equally participate in the same kinds of shit.

Well, I don't think shifty behaviour in the Israeli government began with Netanyahu as such. But I do agree with you're saying here.



For the few who don't know it, I'm a Jew.

And you're not the only Jewish person I've seen make such comments. Can it still be "antisemitic" if it's a Jew making said ciriticism?

[BarryLI]

I wholeheartedly agree. Making a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas is ridiculous so I'll disagree. X gets the square.

[BarryLI]

Well, I don't think shifty behaviour in the Israeli government began with Netanyahu as such. But I do agree with you're saying here.



And you're not the only Jewish person I've seen make such comments. Can it still be "antisemitic" if it's a Jew making said ciriticism? "Shifty behavior" in a thread discussing Jews? You win the thread.

[Facelift]

I have a feeling that if we don't start talking about the record industry soon, we *all* will lose the thread. :)

[Scrotum Scissor]

Making a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas is ridiculous so I'll disagree.

I didn't do that. So you're effectively "disagreeing" with something else than the quote implies.

[Scott Bails]

"If you're not with us, you're against us."

[progeezer]

Making a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas is ridiculous so I'll disagree. X gets the square.I'd bet the farm that Ben-Gurion, Golda & Rabin are spinning in their graves over Big Bad Benjamin's vision. Peres (who's still breathing) has voiced his negative opinion at the current Israeli state of affairs for quite a while.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Can it still be "antisemitic" if it's a Jew making said ciriticism?

Yes it can, and don't bother about applying too many quotation marks around the general term itself - because it exists, it is real when it is true. Believe me; being a hardline leftist for all my grownup life and writing my university thesis on this exact subject made me want to puke at the overall bigotry that rules the game of positions in the field. The fact that there's completely legitimate ground for criticizing a state and its policies does NOT mean that all such apparent criticism is legitimate - depending on context, incitament, motive.

[BarryLI]

I'd bet the farm that Ben-Gurion, Golda & Rabin are spinning in their graves over Big Bad Benjamin's vision. Peres (who's still breathing) has voiced his negative opinion at the current Israeli state of affairs for quite a while. For those cheesed at Israel for their West Bank policies I always like to ask a question: Your next door neighbor wants to kill you, and is quite vocal about it, too, so, what's your solution? I'd love to hear it, and so would Mr Netanyahu I'd wager.

[Jerjo]

I would definitely join a PE group that would discuss Middle East politics, provided the discussion is measured and reasoned.

On second thought, "measured and reasoned" discussion of that topic is probably impossible.

[Scott Bails]

I would definitely join a PE group that would discuss Middle East politics, provided the discussion is measured and reasoned.


I'm in.

[BarryLI]

I would definitely join a PE group that would discuss Middle East politics, provided the discussion is measured and reasoned.

On second thought, "measured and reasoned" discussion of that topic is probably impossible. Probably.

[progeezer]

I'm sorry, but I'd stay out to avoid being labeled an anti-Semite.:D

[BarryLI]

I'm sorry, but I'd stay out to avoid being labeled an anti-Semite.:D One could certainly disagree with Israeli government policies and not be an anti-Semite, it is a Democracy and dissent is surely welcome. However, when it comes to Roger it seems a lot more than just dissent, at least to me it does.

[Mister Triscuits]

I would definitely join a PE group that would discuss Middle East politics

Ha, at first I thought this was a response to the question in the post above yours! :lol

[bob_32_116]

How does a thread about musicians trying to make a living in the digital era transmogrify into a political discussion about the Middle East? :down

Time to close the thread I think - in any case I'm out of here.

[BarryLI]

How does a thread about musicians trying to make a living in the digital era transmogrify into a political discussion about the Middle East? :down

Time to close the thread I think - in any case I'm out of here. I love that I'm a member of a website where someone would use the word "transmogrify", carry on.

[Classic Progressive]

I get political views shoveled at me in the real world..... I come here for music discussion and at times this site actually has some good discussions about prog.

Some of you seem to live your lives in front of your computer screens and your ability to post your unwelcome diatribe in various websites each day. If your posting 40 times a day here I bet your posting 60 times somewhere else.

Get a life... Let people who just want to come here for safe and friendly discussion about prog enjoy this place. Seems like only a few who post here anymore, most people stay quiet. I guess this is typical though.. Same sorts of people with views they can't keep in their pants all over other sites as well. Bet its the same people. Who knows? Who cares!

[BarryLI]

I get political views shoveled at me in the real world..... I come here for music discussion and at times this site actually has some good discussions about prog.

Some of you seem to live your lives in front of your computer screens and your ability to post your unwelcome diatribe in various websites each day. If your posting 40 times a day here I bet your posting 60 times somewhere else.

Get a life... Let people who just want to come here for safe and friendly discussion about prog enjoy this place. Seems like only a few who post here anymore, most people stay quiet. I guess this is typical though.. Same sorts of people with views they can't keep in their pants all over other sites as well. Bet its the same people. Who knows? Who cares!OK, we'll run whatever we want to say through you first so you can edit/re-write since you're apparently Master of the Universe. Oh, and BTW I doubt I have 40 posts here let alone 40 in a day.

[Gruno]

I do believe the moderators here have made it clear that threads that devolve into religious or political mumbo-jumbo will get closed/deleted.

[Gruno]

I doubt I have 40 posts here let alone 40 in a day.

You only have 319 posts total.

[BarryLI]

You only have 319 posts total.Math was never my strong suit.

[zravkapt]

This is good popcorn. Yum.

[Yodelgoat]

Anyway, Back on subject... I have lamented releasing "music for free" and so have avoided it since Contra Mantra (my 2005 release, for those who care), which basically was released for free, if you paid for it, you should know that as the artist, I never saw a penny for it. I am still writing the music I love, I'm just not releasing it. One day, when its viable to release music in a world of new technology that doesnt have a cartoon pirate flipping me the bird (pirate bay) 10 days after the album is released, Perhaps my kids, kids will release it. Its decent stuff - not particularly groundbreaking, but I dont particularly write groundbreaking stuff. For me its more like rototilling old soil and trying to get some additional mileage out of something that sounds like a combination of 3 or 4 well known bands. And I'd probably get 5 minutes of positive press out of it, who knows. creating music is always its own reward. People have been doing that since the beginning of time, and the technology has been a great assistant in getting the music thats in my head on to the platter.

So, new musicians cant be rich, I say big deal. It was only for a very short time that they could(maybe 40 years?), and now we're back to the way it was before the phonograph. Well, not quite, I bet those musicians from the 16th dynasty would have killed to have the musical toys we have now. You have to be happy with what you have been given. And I am. I like showing people my studio, and playing them stuff I've done recently, and have them (mostly) tell me how amazing it is. Its not like having millions of dollars or fans, but the feeling that I have something that no one else can have unless I give it to them is pretty rewarding. I do it to pleasure myself, but its nice to surprise people who are into music, who appreciate what I've done. I recently met a drummer who has played with some pretty big names, and he was emphatic that I needed to get the music out NOW! I told him it isnt going to happen, He went nuts, but after he calmed down, he said " I get what you're doing..." And I think he did. We're now good friends - but he wants to record some of my stuff and release it, but I think, "why? - its all just going to piss me off"

By the way, He was really impressed by Contra Mantra too. Thinks it should have sold a ton, - with the right backing. I close my case. There is no "right backing" anymore - how could there be unless you are willing to go out and hold people hostage and get yourself shot or some other stupid "stunt"? Selling fresh air to mountain men is not a winning sales approach. There isnt one, so why not just do what you love and enjoy it with a few friends?

(Apologize for the self plug - its been quite a few years so I figure I'm entitled)

[Facelift]

I told him it isnt going to happen, He went nuts, but after he calmed down, he said " I get what you're doing..." And I think he did. We're now good friends - but he wants to record some of my stuff and release it, but I think, "why? - its all just going to piss me off"


Why wouldn't you want him to cover some of your stuff?

[Yodelgoat]

He's more of a session or gun for hire kind of guy, so he doesnt have a band to release it, he's well connected though, which is something I'm not totally oblivious to. We're going to get together and jam a bit, maybe something will come of that, but he's not likely to release anything prog (which is where my heart truly is), so its a bit of a misfit, he knows guys like Steve Miller, Billy Gibbons... I'm in my 50's so I'm not exactly someone they would take up as a protege. Which is really what guys like Roger Waters should really do, if they really want to bring up new artists. They should re-invest some of their bling into the less well known. Like Kansas is doing, where they are trying to keep the Kansas music alive, by infusing newer musicians into the band. A brilliant thing that all really successful bands ought to do (but not with 50 something year olds as protege's)

[Oreb]

It's not rocket science. You discuss a region if the world and single out for your criticisms and boycott campaigns the one country where there are free elections, where Gays and Lesbians are not up for the death penalty and where women are unlikely to be stoned to death for having sex - if THAT'S the country for which you reserve your spleen - then you deserve to be called by your true name.

[Plasmatopia]

I reserve the right to criticize any country in any region for anything they do that I don't agree with in spite of any freedoms or benefits they may offer. I'm not sure why I should discriminate. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of room for improvement in every corner of humanity.

[Facelift]

Which is really what guys like Roger Waters should really do, if they really want to bring up new artists. They should re-invest some of their bling into the less well known. Like Kansas is doing, where they are trying to keep the Kansas music alive, by infusing newer musicians into the band. A brilliant thing that all really successful bands ought to do (but not with 50 something year olds as protege's)

Some people successful in popular music, who consider themselves to be "of the arts" give back in ways; if not necessarily by having proteges then by helping with funding and exposure (Peter Gabriel comes to mind here). It would be nice if more did this. Everything's just changed so much, though.

On the subject of the new recording industry, I thought this was interesting:

http://blog.sonicbids.com/4-red-flags-that-new-artists-should-negotiate-out-of-their-recording-contracts

[Yodelgoat]

http://blog.sonicbids.com/4-red-flags-that-new-artists-should-negotiate-out-of-their-recording-contracts

Wow, I would tell anyone considering this as an option to run like hell from it. Just quit music and become a drug addict instead, it saves time.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I would definitely join a PE group that would discuss Middle East politics, provided the discussion is measured and reasoned.

bonus points for doing it in a thread about the music industry :roll

[Jerjo]

bonus points for doing it in a thread about the music industry :roll

Bonus points for not understanding that my attempt was to move a political discussion away from a thread about the music industry. :roll

[sergio]

he better concentrate on writing music, sort of what others are doing. Stop complaining etc. Make something worth paying for (eg Hand.Cannot.Erase special edition or something). The Wall was written over 30 years back now...

[Patelena396]

he better concentrate on writing music, sort of what others are doing. Stop complaining etc. Make something worth paying for (eg Hand.Cannot.Erase special edition or something). The Wall was written over 30 years back now...

He isn't complaining about it for himself as he states that he made his money. He is referencing the young musicians of today who don't have the opportunity to earn the living that he did. I have to laugh a little when people get so defensive about this subject or throw out what assholes the record execs were in the glory days when everyone was buying their music. That is a moot point as far as I am concerned.

The fact is that if you were a musician putting your time, talent and money into recording music today, there is a strong likelihood that it would piss you off to no end that many more people were taking your music for free than paying for it. It is what it is at this point and artists need to work around it, but it doesn't mean that it is fair or right. The home taping logos from the 80s don't mean a lot either as it wasn't an epidemic at that point.

Personally, I feel it is entirely fair to have a platform for music such as progstreaming where you can hear something before you buy it. I have spent thousands of dollars over the last 30 years on albums that I ultimately didn't like and don't listen to. I pretty much sunk my kids college funds into buying CDs. 😀 At this point, I do like to hear at least some soundbytes of an unknown artist's album before I pay for it because I don't want to buy any more music that I just don't like. That said, it is pretty amazing what has happened to the music industry. Music is like any other product. If you want it to listen to whenever you like, you should pay for it.

[sergio]

He isn't complaining about it for himself as he states that he made his money. He is referencing the young musicians of today who don't have the opportunity to earn the living that he did. I have to laugh a little when people get so defensive about this subject or throw out what assholes the record execs were in the glory days when everyone was buying their music. That is a moot point as far as I am concerned.

The fact is that if you were a musician putting your time, talent and money into recording music today, there is a strong likelihood that it would piss you off to no end that many more people were taking your music for free than paying for it. It is what it is at this point and artists need to work around it, but it doesn't mean that it is fair or right. The home taping logos from the 80s don't mean a lot either as it wasn't an epidemic at that point.

Personally, I feel it is entirely fair to have a platform for music such as progstreaming where you can hear something before you buy it. I have spent thousands of dollars over the last 30 years on albums that I ultimately didn't like and don't listen to. I pretty much sunk my kids college funds into buying CDs. �� At this point, I do like to hear at least some soundbytes of an unknown artist's album before I pay for it because I don't want to buy any more music that I just don't like. That said, it is pretty amazing what has happened to the music industry. Music is like any other product. If you want it to listen to whenever you like, you should pay for it.

agreed, totally. However, there is no way one can reverse the current state of things with digital rips, downloads etc etc. Do it smart way. Offer something more than just a CD in a box. DVD recording diary, 65 pages of booklet, special edition package worth $200, bluray, 96/24, 5.1... And people will buy it. And I'd like to think that artists don't always think about making money. It's always a bonus, of course! And they still recording album after album after album no matter what streaming, downloading etc going on.

[bob_32_116]

he better concentrate on writing music, sort of what others are doing. Stop complaining etc. Make something worth paying for (eg Hand.Cannot.Erase special edition or something). The Wall was written over 30 years back now...
I've been dismissive of Roger Waters' post-Floyd output for a long time now, and have said so many times - but I do believe in credit where credit is due, and if he can do something to help out the next generation of musicians, good for him. Recognising and stating the problem is a start. Of course now he needs to propose solutions.

[Patelena396]

agreed, totally. However, there is no way one can reverse the current state of things with digital rips, downloads etc etc. Do it smart way. Offer something more than just a CD in a box. DVD recording diary, 65 pages of booklet, special edition package worth $200, bluray, 96/24, 5.1... And people will buy it. And I'd like to think that artists don't always think about making money. It's always a bonus, of course! And they still recording album after album after album no matter what streaming, downloading etc going on.

I agree and love those special editions.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Bonus points for not understanding that my attempt was to move a political discussion away from a thread about the music industry. :roll

bro, I understood... I was just riding your coat-tails... sheesh

[Splicer]

I get political views shoveled at me in the real world...(all this middle stuff snipped)...Who knows? Who cares!

So let me get this straight. You don't like diatribes, but then go on a diatribe. You clearly have a strong opinion, but you get annoyed at the strong opinion of other people if they don't conform to your own guidelines about acceptable subjects. Everyone's entitled to their wrong opinion.

[JKL2000]

They act like Animals.

It's as if they hear music from the body.

[at least 100 dead]

It's as if they hear music from the body.

Bet they even piddle in perspex and give birth to smiles.

[Ken Baird]

It's been a steady decline since the dawn of the digital age.
A lot of great music, and my opinion is that the music was better before all the Protools and sampling, looping, fixing madness.
Sure, musicians could punch in the studio, but they still had to play it. Now kids are making songs and albums without even lifting an instrument.

It's been a era of lifeless, sterile nonsense for way too long. Prog artists are just as guilty of endlessly over producing their work also.

It's no different than painters being shoved under the bus for digital posers pretending to be the real deal. Techo music is the digital version of poster art.

Computers have not made music better. It's lowered the bar and created a generation of pretenders who amuse themselves to death.

Hi Skullhead, I don't want to derail this thread here to a different topic, but I've read this opinion from you before re: Protools and "prog artists are just as guilty as others for over-editing etc"

Every time I read this, I think "who, me?" because I actually don't edit much at all. I pretty much punch in and out, but have never fixed or changed much at all from the recording of tracks. In other words, what is played is what you get. I rarely even use sequencers (I'm a keyboard player, but I mostly play!)--I think I've done it three times on album over the years, but that's it. I actually wouldn't mind using them a bit more often, for the type of mechanical effects you can get, but so far, I usually play everything. So, my point is that you can still make recordings as real as you want to.

At the same time, I have no real issue with bands that use a lot of editing--and I can't think of too many in the Prog world that do actually, I just choose to do much less of that. I actually enjoy playing as much as I can and doing as little editing as possible (again, pretty much ends up being a few punch-ins)

Ok, back to the Waters thread.

[at least 100 dead]

At the same time, I have no real issue with bands that use a lot of editing--and I can't think of too many in the Prog world that do actually

Close to the Edge (apparently *the* gold standard for prog) was the result of heavy editing.

[Ken Baird]

Close to the Edge (apparently *the* gold standard for prog) was the result of heavy editing.

That's true-a very good example of what editing can do! I have a lot of respect for what they did with the structure because of that. But, tape splicing (and of course today would be just to move the whole track around/much easier) still involves the band playing those actual 30 second bits or 1 minute bits. I think what Skullhead is talking about is moving individual notes around the place/fixing vocals with their tuning etc. At least, I think that's what he means. Ah, here it is, the "Protools and sampling, looping, fixing madness" are his exact words, which is a different thing (although I suppose you could argue that looping isn't that different from moving edits around)

In any case, editing has always been around and will continue to be. How much you use it is up to you. Glenn Gould did it a lot as well, but he could certainly play! He just fixed a few notes.

[Facelift]

In any case, editing has always been around and will continue to be. How much you use it is up to you. Glenn Gould did it a lot as well, but he could certainly play! He just fixed a few notes.

And Bill Evans and Miles Davis too.

[BravadoNJ]

maybe he can channel that anger into a new concept album about the music industry's downfall.

Roger Waters.... Swinging From The Tree a new 8cd concept.. also available on cassette & 8 track.

[Scott Bails]

maybe he can channel that anger into a new concept album about the music industry's downfall.

Roger Waters.... Swinging From The Tree a new 8cd concept.. also available on cassette & 8 track.


"Daddy got killed in the war
And I don't make new records anymore
Margaret Thatcher is a bitch
And new musicians can't get rich"



Hmm...yeah. It has potential. :)

[Jerjo]

"Daddy got killed in the war
And I don't make new records anymore
Margaret Thatcher is a bitch
And new musicians can't get rich"



Hmm...yeah. It has potential. :)

Insert bridge regarding Syd losing his marbles.

[Leibowitz]

RW has more or less made a career out of complaining.

[Classic Progressive]

So let me get this straight. You don't like diatribes, but then go on a diatribe. You clearly have a strong opinion, but you get annoyed at the strong opinion of other people if they don't conform to your own guidelines about acceptable subjects. Everyone's entitled to their wrong opinion.

Well I guess that was a bit pointed... hit some nerves I guess.. but if the time that I took to be an ass about being an ass has helped to keep this thread opened long enough for you to now convey your entitlement. Then it was all worth the effort and I am glad you were able to state your wrong opinion, just as I was.

Staying on topic....; Roger is just stating his frustrations for the next generations. The digital age and worldwide access to communication from your home has done many great things but it has also devastated the music industry (as many from his era knew it and with all it's flaws) and has curtailed creativity as much as it has opened up new avenues.

Joe Walsh and many of the heyday of rock have stated this same sentiment. I tend to agree that the damage far outweighs the benefits.

[Skullhead]

I don't understand your argument.

Computers make it easier for some people to make music. So what? That has no relation whatsoever to the quality of music that is available today.

Of course it does... people use computers because they need them. If they didn't, they would record things without them. If an artist does any kind of manipulation on the computer, pro tools, quatization, pitch shifting etc...even compression, it's the artist pretending they did it right. It's pretentious. Pretending.

Most everyone is just pretending these days.

The bar has been lowered no doubt, therefore the output has been lowered. If the band isn't as good as their recording, they are pretending. People sense this... even if subconsciously.

[Scott Bails]

Of course it does... people use computers because they need them. If they didn't, they would record things without them.

No, not necessarily. Jordan Rudess uses a computer, and I think he's quite the capable musician. Computers are just another tool.



If an artist does any kind of manipulation on the computer, pro tools, quatization, pitch shifting etc...even compression, it's the artist pretending they did it right. It's pretentious. Pretending.

No, not necessarily. It could be done for effect, like AutoTune is used on Cher's "Believe."


Most everyone is just pretending these days.

A generalization and assumption on your part.


The bar has been lowered no doubt, therefore the output has been lowered. If the band isn't as good as their recording, they are pretending. People sense this... even if subconsciously.

You apparently have a very limited scope in your listening.

[Skullhead]

Hi Skullhead, I don't want to derail this thread here to a different topic, but I've read this opinion from you before re: Protools and "prog artists are just as guilty as others for over-editing etc"

Every time I read this, I think "who, me?" because I actually don't edit much at all. I pretty much punch in and out, but have never fixed or changed much at all from the recording of tracks. In other words, what is played is what you get. I rarely even use sequencers (I'm a keyboard player, but I mostly play!)--I think I've done it three times on album over the years, but that's it. I actually wouldn't mind using them a bit more often, for the type of mechanical effects you can get, but so far, I usually play everything. So, my point is that you can still make recordings as real as you want to.

At the same time, I have no real issue with bands that use a lot of editing--and I can't think of too many in the Prog world that do actually, I just choose to do much less of that. I actually enjoy playing as much as I can and doing as little editing as possible (again, pretty much ends up being a few punch-ins)

Ok, back to the Waters thread.

That is great what you are doing. The problem is however... who would know? You are doing the hard work and making music that I am sure sounds tight and well put together... but to the average listener, they will not be able to tell it from some lower rung artist who is pretending to make a recording using perfect samples they are just downloading etc.. or they are fixing their music up to death.. amusing themselves to death. So while in the past.. your music would probably sound amazing to most compared to other artists, now it's just in the pile of sterile nonsense that everyone is listening to and they can't tell the difference. Lost in the shuffle.

[Skullhead]

No, not necessarily. Jordan Rudess uses a computer, and I think he's quite the capable musician. Computers are just another tool.




No, not necessarily. It could be done for effect, like AutoTune is used on Cher's "Believe."



A generalization and assumption on your part.



You apparently have a very limited scope in your listening.

Not here to argue. You are a computer guy.. "Ok Computer"

I'm not a fan. I stand supported by all the great albums that were made without the use of computers and ALSO what the ENTIRE process entails. If one records the old way onto a quality tape machine, there are limitations, but those limitations can produce exceptional results as we all know. There was a lot of great music made before computers got involved. They are not instruments.. tools, maybe, but so is my sledgehammer. I might take it to my computer soon.

The Great Pyramids at Giza were constructed "the old way" and they still stand there looking at us from the past. We wonder in amazement as to how they did this without modern "technology". I suppose the great music from the era before computers will eventually have the same effect upon future generations. At some point, I am sure a proper distinction will be made.

[Scott Bails]

Not here to argue. You are a computer guy.. "Ok Computer"

No, I'm not a computer guy at all. I just think you're grossly overstating the issue. You're obsessed.


I'm not a fan.

Hadn't noticed.


I stand supported by all the great albums that were made without the use of computers and ALSO what the ENTIRE process entails. If one records the old way onto a quality tape machine, there are limitations, but those limitations can produce exceptional results as we all know. There was a lot of great music made before computers got involved. They are not instruments.. tools, maybe, but so is my sledgehammer. I might take it to my computer soon.

Honestly, wouldn't it be more productive to just enjoy the music you enjoy instead of trying to figure out how it was made to see if it fits into your narrow little view of how music should be made first?


The Great Pyramids at Giza were constructed "the old way" and they still stand there looking at us from the past. We wonder in amazement as to how they did this without modern "technology". I suppose the great music from the era before computers will eventually have the same effect upon future generations. At some point, I am sure a proper distinction will be made.

The Great Pyramids at Giza are the only one of the Seven Wonders of the World still standing - that's not a great track record, if you ask me.

[Skullhead]

Roger Waters points are well taken here. If music was performed, distributed and recorded on records as they were in the past, bands would be touring, selling higher quality recordings, and this would motivate people to purchase better phonographs, speakers etc.

Bands would be a special thing.. they would practice more together in the same room and learn their craft better.. learn to interplay and listen to one another. Not tracking over the web etc.

Cassette tapes were always a disaster. That was the low end of music listening experience. 1/8 inch tape running stereo in two directions. That equates to 1/32 of an inch for each of the individual stereo side tracks. Then the tape is moving at very slow speak so the signal to noise ratio is huge. It's bad. This is why CD's came about really. To replace low end listening (cassettes) CD did not come about to replace true audiophile music experiences. Roger Waters would be the first to agree I am sure. DSOTM would be best to be heard off master tapes, then vinyl then high def blue ray or 5.1. Then any of the remastered "CD" versions.

[Scott Bails]

Forgive me, Skullhead. I believed I stepped on your lawn. Won't happen again.

[Gruno]

tools, maybe, but so is my sledgehammer. I might take it to my computer soon..

I believe you would get a standing ovation here at PE if you did such a thing. I'm all for it! :up

Based on your posts, if I were to guess at what your cell phone looks like...

http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad308/goblynzgroove/pe/phone_zpslbyc06vy.jpg

[Yodelgoat]

Having recorded in the Old days - Produced actual Vinyl (2 records) I can say that I love the new technology for recording music. Home recording has given people who would have never had the resources to go into a commercial studio and turn their ideas into real music. Having Money to piss away used to be the key to anyone producing a recording, now its not an issue at all. I still think you have to have a certain amount of talent to produce music in this environment. Sure there are people who stick a few beats together in Acid Pro, Protools (or whatever it is these days) and they can pretend they've written something, but I can tell, and I prefer real musicians to the software based ones, but I am in the minority - people dont care. Its terribly frustrating, but they dont. We do and thats why we're here.

I released one CD with canned drums, and will never do so again. Instead now I play the things myself. I used to play in High school and I have never gotten back to that level of skill, but I'm not terrible. I do like being able to tweak a snare drop or something that doesnt quite sound right, but I'm not trying to sell anything anymore. Music for the sake of music is rewarding. I'll never come close to earning a living with what I do, but I dont have to, and because of that I'll be producing prog oriented music as long as I want. I love it and it loves back. The worst thing that could have happened to me is to have become really successful in my 20's and then struggled for 30 years to try to get that back. People who have come to rely on music for their living are mostly destined for bitterness. Not everyone, but for a majority its inevitable. Some do have that privilege of being a RUSH, or a YES, But the vast majority will never get that. I took the shot, had a little success, had to put it in its place, and I struggled with that, But now I just love where I'm at. No pressure to produce something my heart isnt in. No playing bars and county fairs for a handful of people and 50 bucks a show... Yuck Occasionally (like once a year) I get together with friends and play. Before the PA is set up, i'm already ready for it to be over. The next day I'm ready to go in to my studio and lay down tracks. No one to tell me what to do. Its the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.

[progeezer]

Just curious, Scott (otherwise I'm definitely on your side of the fence), when did they tear the Taj Mahal (one of the 7 Wonders) down?:)

[Scott Bails]

Just curious, Scott (otherwise I'm definitely on your side of the fence), when did they tear the Taj Mahal (one of the 7 Wonders) down?:)

Semantics, I suppose. I was referring to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, or the "Classic" Seven Wonders - I misspoke. ;)

The Taj Mahal is considered to be one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World. :)

[BarryLI]

I believe you would get a standing ovation here at PE if you did such a thing. I'm all for it! :up

Based on your posts, if I were to guess at what your cell phone looks like...

http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad308/goblynzgroove/pe/phone_zpslbyc06vy.jpgOK, now you're making me jealous.

[Plasmatopia]

That's true-a very good example of what editing can do! I have a lot of respect for what they did with the structure because of that. But, tape splicing (and of course today would be just to move the whole track around/much easier) still involves the band playing those actual 30 second bits or 1 minute bits. I think what Skullhead is talking about is moving individual notes around the place/fixing vocals with their tuning etc. At least, I think that's what he means. Ah, here it is, the "Protools and sampling, looping, fixing madness" are his exact words, which is a different thing (although I suppose you could argue that looping isn't that different from moving edits around)

In any case, editing has always been around and will continue to be. How much you use it is up to you. Glenn Gould did it a lot as well, but he could certainly play! He just fixed a few notes.

It's no use getting specific. Any discussion involving the Analog Propagandist will never get beyond the repetition of a few well-worn generalities.

[Skullhead]

It's no use getting specific. Any discussion involving the Analog Propagandist will never get beyond the repetition of a few well-worn generalities.

I suppose it is a generality that any serious top ten list of the greatest progressive rock albums of all time will include at least 10 albums from the analog era of recorded music.

[Plasmatopia]

Look up "argumentum ad populum".

[JKL2000]

I'm disappointed, as I expected he was referring to Progression magazine

BG

He's never had any issues with their publishing schedule. He's a long-time subscriber, and he "gets it."

[JKL2000]

Progression is printed on Hemp.

[JKL2000]

Semantics, I suppose. I was referring to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, or the "Classic" Seven Wonders - I misspoke. ;)

The Taj Mahal is considered to be one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World. :)

The Seven Wonders are ELP, GG, Rush, KC, Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis.

[bob_32_116]

The Great Pyramids at Giza were constructed "the old way" and they still stand there looking at us from the past. We wonder in amazement as to how they did this without modern "technology". I suppose the great music from the era before computers will eventually have the same effect upon future generations. At some point, I am sure a proper distinction will be made.Pyramids? I just don't see the point.

[trurl]

I think the point is you can make better albums if you command a nation of slave labor.

[Skullhead]

The Seven Wonders are ELP, GG, Rush, KC, Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis.

Just my point.

All bands that recorded their greatest stuff in the ancient analog world. It was a different process of doing things than what goes on now, and if you look at the final output, I put my money on the above bands over anything that has come out since the advent of computers getting involved in the music.

[Gruno]

All bands that recorded their greatest stuff in the ancient analog world. It was a different process of doing things than what goes on now, and if you look at the final output, I put my money on the above bands over anything that has come out since the advent of computers getting involved in the music.

Would you repeat that again? I didn't hear you...

[Skullhead]

I think the point is you can make better albums if you command a nation of slave labor.

Modern musicians are living much more like slaves. They make no money, and have little hope for a better future on the horizon.

Contrary to popular opinion, they are finding out that the workers of the pyramids lived well, and were taken care of. They worked sensible shifts and lived in stylish quarters.

The pyramid analogy is that point that an archaic way of doing things is still interesting to generations thousands of years later.

I can assure you that the great prog of the 1970's will have much more significance than any that has been made in the age of computer manipulation in the years of future musicology.

[WHORG]

SH = You should be on quill pen and parchment old man . . . then courier such messages (by pony) to well deserved recipients !!! That's the old way . . .

[at least 100 dead]

SH = You should be on quill pen and parchment old man . . . then courier such messages (by pony) to well deserved recipients !!! That's the old way . . .

Not bad, but still too hi-tech and since most anyone can write, it's too egalitarian.

Chisel & stone's the way to go! Henceforth, only stonemasons shall communicate...

[Plasmatopia]

Smoke signals proved to be a just a passing fad. Anyone could do those. The resulting messages just didn't hold up over time.

[Ken Baird]

That is great what you are doing. The problem is however... who would know? You are doing the hard work and making music that I am sure sounds tight and well put together... but to the average listener, they will not be able to tell it from some lower rung artist who is pretending to make a recording using perfect samples they are just downloading etc.. or they are fixing their music up to death.. amusing themselves to death. So while in the past.. your music would probably sound amazing to most compared to other artists, now it's just in the pile of sterile nonsense that everyone is listening to and they can't tell the difference. Lost in the shuffle.

Thanks Skullhead, I think you make a good point here with "who would know" and getting "lost in the shuffle". Because listeners really often don't know how much manipulation was done or not in most cases---but the I'd say the "sound of the record" at the end of the day is the important thing, regardless of recording philosophies or choices.

Although I've done quite well with the last album (likely because of the band approach) I think it IS is easy to get lost in the shuffle, but not of "sterile nonsense" but what I feel is lots of really good music out there! I think there are tons of new bands today that range from good to great to GREAT and there are so many that you can get lost in the shuffle--but it's a GOOD shuffle! At least, to my ears.

I think if you look hard enough, you'll hear some bands today that are probably about as real-sounding as you can come by. Try Traumhaus or Anima Mundi for example. While computers were no doubt used for recording, I don't detect that they used too many fix-its. I think most bands don't overdo that sort of thing unless you're in pop music where quite often these days, there were no musicians playing on the record at all! Except for the singer I guess.

[moecurlythanu]

I remember reading an article in a magazine in the 70s, probably Circus, where the journo interviewed some fans at a Genesis concert who were wearing pyramids on their heads. They said it was to take advantage of the heightened level of mystical "pyramid power" at Genesis concerts. Circa 1975, I think.

I kid you not.

[Ken Baird]

I remember reading an article in a magazine in the 70s, probably Circus, where the journo interviewed some fans at a Genesis concert who were wearing pyramids on their heads. They said it was to take advantage of the heightened level of mystical "pyramid power" at Genesis concerts. Circa 1975, I think.

I kid you not.

Influenced by that weird red thing that Gabriel wore on his head during Supper's Ready? It was sort of "pyramid-like"? Or is there something in the Lamb lyrics...More likely just some typical 70's stuff going on :)

[Ken Baird]

Having recorded in the Old days - Produced actual Vinyl (2 records) I can say that I love the new technology for recording music. Home recording has given people who would have never had the resources to go into a commercial studio and turn their ideas into real music. Having Money to piss away used to be the key to anyone producing a recording, now its not an issue at all. I still think you have to have a certain amount of talent to produce music in this environment. Sure there are people who stick a few beats together in Acid Pro, Protools (or whatever it is these days) and they can pretend they've written something, but I can tell, and I prefer real musicians to the software based ones, but I am in the minority - people dont care. Its terribly frustrating, but they dont. We do and thats why we're here.

I released one CD with canned drums, and will never do so again. Instead now I play the things myself. I used to play in High school and I have never gotten back to that level of skill, but I'm not terrible. I do like being able to tweak a snare drop or something that doesnt quite sound right, but I'm not trying to sell anything anymore. Music for the sake of music is rewarding. I'll never come close to earning a living with what I do, but I dont have to, and because of that I'll be producing prog oriented music as long as I want. I love it and it loves back. The worst thing that could have happened to me is to have become really successful in my 20's and then struggled for 30 years to try to get that back. People who have come to rely on music for their living are mostly destined for bitterness. Not everyone, but for a majority its inevitable. Some do have that privilege of being a RUSH, or a YES, But the vast majority will never get that. I took the shot, had a little success, had to put it in its place, and I struggled with that, But now I just love where I'm at. No pressure to produce something my heart isnt in. No playing bars and county fairs for a handful of people and 50 bucks a show... Yuck Occasionally (like once a year) I get together with friends and play. Before the PA is set up, i'm already ready for it to be over. The next day I'm ready to go in to my studio and lay down tracks. No one to tell me what to do. Its the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.

Quoted for truth, and the bit "people don't care, but we do and that's why we're here". The point is that there are still discerning listeners out there---some are almost TOO discerning! But, that's a prog audience for you :) And then there are those that are only there for the pyramid power :)

[Classic Progressive]

Quoted for truth, and the bit "people don't care, but we do and that's why we're here". The point is that there are still discerning listeners out there---some are almost TOO discerning! But, that's a prog audience for you :) And then there are those that are only there for the pyramid power :)


Yep there's about 600 discerning listeners out there. All kinds of fantastic Prog bands out there keepin the craft alive. Only "a very few" who can support their craft from the music they write anymore. Meanwhile back at Country Music Central, they are just beginning the concert season and already had thirty sold out shows! Rap is selling tickets so fast they can't count the money fast enough in the inner cities. I am not complaining, just cryin in my coffee.

[BigSixFan]

I think the point is you can make better albums if you command a nation of slave labor.

This has been well known. The Red Guards of Hong Lake released their diamond-record hit, "“Looking Forward to the Liberation of the Working People of the World." Sold records in the tens of millions...

Bob

[BigSixFan]

I remember reading an article in a magazine in the 70s, probably Circus, where the journo interviewed some fans at a Genesis concert who were wearing pyramids on their heads. They said it was to take advantage of the heightened level of mystical "pyramid power" at Genesis concerts. Circa 1975, I think.

I kid you not.

Many people attached this mystic property to the obelisk on Led Zeppelin's Presence album as well...

Bob

[Ken Baird]

Yep there's about 600 discerning listeners out there. All kinds of fantastic Prog bands out there keepin the craft alive. Only "a very few" who can support their craft from the music they write anymore. Meanwhile back at Country Music Central, they are just beginning the concert season and already had thirty sold out shows! Rap is selling tickets so fast they can't count the money fast enough in the inner cities. I am not complaining, just cryin in my coffee.

Aww, cheer up! I was in Quebec to see IQ a few weeks ago and there were plenty of prog fans about the place, not to mention record shops in Montreal that said "Rock, Prog, Metal" right on the sign and another store with Steven Wilson's latest right in the front window. Prog is in pretty good shape, even if it smells funny.

[moecurlythanu]

Many people attached this mystic property to the obelisk on Led Zeppelin's Presence album as well...

Bob

I have "The Object" on a table in my living room. So far, the table hasn't levitated.

[Camelogue]

Prog will die, most religions do....

[trurl]

I have "The Object" on a table in my living room. So far, the table hasn't levitated.

Well not when you're looking at it, duh.

:D

Try pouring chicken blood on it or something.

[2steves]

Prog will die, most religions do....

So true lol---lucky for us it;s a long drawn out death.

[Yodelgoat]

I dont think it will die in my lifetime. When younger people hear some of the prog I play them they say - "This is amazing! - If popular music was all like this, it would be huge!" Then they walk away, put on their headphones and listen to something they just downloaded free from some Japanese dj. Its that people today are about convenience - they will listen to what is right in front of them, few will take the time to find something they really want to listen to. "prog is just an overwhelming responsibility". Think how classical music fans must feel. Getting something new performed and recorded must be just an unbelievable task, and for the reward of just a few? You cant shortcut a symphony with MIDI - or at least, I doubt you'd get away with it with serious classical music fans. But I do think there will always be someone to keep just about every style of music alive.

[Classic Progressive]

I dont think it will die in my lifetime. When younger people hear some of the prog I play them they say - "This is amazing! - If popular music was all like this, it would be huge!" Then they walk away, put on their headphones and listen to something they just downloaded free from some Japanese dj. Its that people today are about convenience - they will listen to what is right in front of them, few will take the time to find something they really want to listen to. "prog is just an overwhelming responsibility". Think how classical music fans must feel. Getting something new performed and recorded must be just an unbelievable task, and for the reward of just a few? You cant shortcut a symphony with MIDI - or at least, I doubt you'd get away with it with serious classical music fans. But I do think there will always be someone to keep just about every style of music alive.

I wonder if they will have the ability to know who the very last prog fan is someday in the not to far future. Perhaps they will do an interview with the old bastard. (Sorry, but I have to assume it will be a guy!) They will find him alone and he'll look very much like Ian Anderson doing his best Aqualung impersonation. Bearded and baggy clothed, wild eyed and confused. Holding an old Ipod that has not worked in years, twitching, chanting and babbling a mix of lyrics from Peter Gabriel, Derek Shulman, Jon Anderson and Ace Frehley? He'll be a horder... and they will find him in his home that is filled to the ceiling with priceless albums and analog recordinging equipment, piles of prog tour shirts, boxes and boxes of MacDonalds happy meal toys old french fries and about a million plastic pyramids.

Hey this guy could be half this forum in twenty years!

[profusion]

Hey this guy could be half this forum in twenty years!

You think it'll take that long?

[Classic Progressive]

You think it'll take that long?
I was being nice to three guy's I know who fit this description now except for the beards.

[NogbadTheBad]

And I thought I was a luddite.

Yodel, if you have any stuff out there I'd like to listen to it.

[Classic Progressive]

No the only protests today are roadies complaining about labor wages as most bands can only afford 1 and the union is just not helping anymore. The technology they actually embrace. The lighting rigs are lighter and generate less heat, and the GPS makes finding the next gig easy.

got nothin otherwise

[Gruno]

No the only protests today are roadies complaining about labor wages as most bands can only afford 1 and the union is just not helping anymore. The technology they actually embrace. The lighting rigs are lighter and generate less heat, and the GPS makes finding the next gig easy.

got nothin otherwise


What Union are roadies in? All the ones I know are either working for the company (artist/band) or they are contracted per tour leg. Also, what level of touring are you referring to? I know many, many roadies who make more per week than some of the musicians they tech for.

[Classic Progressive]

What Union are roadies in? All the ones I know are either working for the company (artist/band) or they are contracted per tour leg. Also, what level of touring are you referring to? I know many, many roadies who make more per week than some of the musicians they tech for.
Ahhhhhh I forgot the little smilly thingy. or the up arrow thingy. This whole message was for Nogbad.

You are quite right about the roadies making more than the musians at times.

[moecurlythanu]

Try pouring chicken blood on it or something.

I'm afraid it would attract ants.

[Magic Mountain]

I have "The Object" on a table in my living room. So far, the table hasn't levitated.

But have you carried it around for days and days, playing little games, like not looking at it for a whole day, And then... looking at it!...to see if you still liked it.

[Casey]

Hey this guy could be half this forum in twenty years!


For some, it's now...


Posters... Don't forget the wall posters.


And maybe a lava lamp.

[Koreabruce]

But have you carried it around for days and days, playing little games, like not looking at it for a whole day, And then... looking at it!...to see if you still liked it.

I DID!

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I DID!

well played sir

[thos]

I remember reading an article in a magazine in the 70s, probably Circus, where the journo interviewed some fans at a Genesis concert who were wearing pyramids on their heads. They said it was to take advantage of the heightened level of mystical "pyramid power" at Genesis concerts. Circa 1975, I think.

I kid you not.
Probably "purple pyramid" ;)

[Sunlight Caller]

I have "The Object" on a table in my living room. So far, the table hasn't levitated.

I went to a lecture given by Storm Thorgerson and the subject of the LZ obelisk came up. He told us there wasn't one actually, it was just a shape which was cut out of each picture, so for presence read absence... If you have one on your table I suggest it may be a portal to another galaxy or dimension... it's certainly worth an explore, because perhaps prog sells over there ;)

[Halmyre]

I went to a lecture given by Storm Thorgerson and the subject of the LZ obelisk came up. He told us there wasn't one actually, it was just a shape which was cut out of each picture, so for presence read absence... If you have one on your table I suggest it may be a portal to another galaxy or dimension... it's certainly worth an explore, because perhaps prog sells over there ;)

This has always seemed blindingly obvious to me, but it doesn't seem to have stopped people depicting it as a solid object.