Egg

[zombywoof]

I know next to nothing about this band, but I own The Polite Force, which I dig out now and then and enjoy tremendously. Any other fans out here? I love Dave Stewart's distorted organ.

[NogbadTheBad]

They are very raw & very excellent. Really complex stuff.

[adewolf]

They are very raw & very excellent. Really complex stuff.
What he said. All their releases have merit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_%28band%29

[progman1975]

Their first two records are awesome....Th Civil Surface which is praised here is just noise to me...Fisrt post on the new website...Do i Get a Guinness

[progman1975]

Prog

[presdoug]

I love the first two records, with The Polite Force being the best one. I really like Dave Stewart's style of playing. The Civil Surface is all right, but not essential for me.

[Sunhillow]

I like all three. Actually, I think they're masterpieces, all three of them. A lot of people think "The Civil Surface" is unessential, but they forget the fact that if this was their sole release, it would have been heralded as a classic, in Canterbury and beyond. I couldn't say which I like most.

[Steve F.]

for many years, one of my favorite bands ever.

[Progbear]

What Sunhillow said, all three are worthy. Actually, when I first got them, the debut was my favourite, but it’s faded in my esteem; it seems “immature” compared to the others. The Polite Force is my fave these days, it’s definitely their most “difficult” album but very much worth the listener’s effort. The Civil Surface definitely has a slicker, more “produced” sound but I think that actually suits them. I would definitely not want to be without “Enneagram.”

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"That's my purse! I don't know you!" --Bobby Hill

N.P.:“Welcome”-Streetmark/Dry

[rcarlberg]

I love Dave Stewart's distorted organ.I'll take your word for it. :)

If you like TPF then S/T and ACS are essential, as is Metronomical Society if you can find it. Beyond that there are dozens of cool examples of Stewart's crooked organwork, just ask if you're not familiar.

[itserik]

I was first turned on to Dave Stewart through Bruford's One of a Kind lp. Loved his sound and wanted more but it wasn't until 2 decades later that I discovered Egg and Hatfields. Polite Force is my favorite.

[rcarlberg]

The Civil Surface which is praised here is just noise to me...It *does* have the advantage/disadvantage (depending on your viewpoint) of Mont Campbell's French horn quartets. It took me a while to warm to them, but now they're an essential part of the album for me, and I couldn't imagine TCS without them.

They led me into Mont's solo albums eventually, which was a whole 'nother journey of discovery!

[NogbadTheBad]

I'll take your word for it. :)

If you like TPF then S/T and ACS are essential, as is Metronomical Society if you can find it. Beyond that there are dozens of cool examples of Stewart's crooked organwork, just ask if you're not familiar.The metronomical society is an excellent release

[spacefreak]

Essential listen, all three! I find The Polite Force album slightly better than their debut. Having said that, I cannot help myself by not referring to "Symphony No. 2" (from the debut) as the most overplayed EGG track on my turntable.

I've got The Civil Surface in the early 90s, more than 10 years after owning the first two and it didn't instantly impress me. There was something with the loud mixing of the drums that I considered somewhat unsuitable to their style. However, consecutive listens unravelled its qualities to my ears and now it ranks equally intricate and stimulating. And I like the way Mont Campbell matured as a musician, with all that french horn experimentism.

[ljubaspriest]

One of fave early prog bands.Actually,every band that involves Dave Stewart is fave(Arzachel,Khan,Hatfields,National Health,Bruford,Am I missing any?)!!!

[NogbadTheBad]

And I like the way Mont Campbell matured as a musician, with all that french horn experimentism.He has two excellent solo albums that are very different, World Music, using lots of ethnic instruments, very zen very mellow, love them

[adewolf]

Excellent stuff.

[Reid]

One of fave early prog bands.Actually,every band that involves Dave Stewart is fave(Arzachel,Khan,Hatfields,National Health,Bruford,Am I missing any?)!!!

:up Considering how young these musicians were at the time of the Egg band, it's truly a mind blower!

[polmico]

One of fave early prog bands.Actually,every band that involves Dave Stewart is fave(Arzachel,Khan,Hatfields,National Health,Bruford,Am I missing any?)!!!

He is on Robert Wyatt's live album.

[Yanks2014]

Still have not heard this band, I've been meaning to check out there music for ages.

[Dave (in MA)]

Their first two records are awesome....Th Civil Surface which is praised here is just noise to me...Fisrt post on the new website...Do i Get a GuinnessDidn't you read the site by-laws? New guy buys everybody a round.

[nosebone]

I love me Egg!

[NogbadTheBad]

Didn't you read the site by-laws? New guy buys everybody a round.That's why I mad sure I was in for Beta testing :)

[Rand Kelly]

I'll take your word for it. :)

If you like TPF then S/T and ACS are essential, as is Metronomical Society if you can find it. Beyond that there are dozens of cool examples of Stewart's crooked organwork, just ask if you're not familiar.

the metronomical society is very easy to find. I just received mine last week and it's phenomenal. Unreleased and live tracks minus audience noise. get it new here: www.burningshed.com

[yogibear]

i have the first two and they are both eggcellent.

[JKL2000]

I can't really decide if Egg is a great name or a lame name. In a way it's great - I'll bet it didn't take them long to come up with.

[Mister Triscuits]

I can't really decide if Egg is a great name or a lame name. In a way it's great - I'll bet it didn't take them long to come up with.

Well, they wanted a short name so it would be in big letters on the poster. I like the story that there was once a triple bill of :


YES
EGG
IF

[Trane]

They are very raw & very excellent. Really complex stuff.

Sometimes/often a bit too complex for my liking... Still like what they did, but....

They seemed to want to go an extra step further than ELP did...
Not sure it was their intention, but it just seems that way to me

[Paulrus]

Still have not heard this band, I've been meaning to check out there music for ages.

How can anyone not love a band that came up with what must be considered *the* prog rock anthem?


http://youtu.be/Mre73P342zc

:lol

[Progulike]

The band was originally called Uriel - they had the name 'Egg' foisted on them by two idiot managers who were offering them regular live work.

The studio albums are musically good but don't quite do justice to Egg's live performances - there's some wild live stuff on The Metronomical Society www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/ (https://www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/) (scroll down for the Egg / Uriel releases).

[Rand Kelly]

I was first turned on to Dave Stewart through Bruford's One of a Kind lp. Loved his sound and wanted more but it wasn't until 2 decades later that I discovered Egg and Hatfields. Polite Force is my favorite.

You need the National Health albums now:

1.National Health
2.Of Queues and Cures
3.D.S. Al Coda
Missing Pieces(Bruford's all over this one.)
Or,the better way would be to seek and find,Complete(all 3 studio albums on 2 discs). and make sure you get Missing Pieces,because most of those have Bruford and Hillage,a treasured first and sad last.

Also, the album,Khan-Space Shanty is riddled with Stewart's amazing keyboard expertise.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Sometimes/often a bit too complex for my liking... Still like what they did, but.... They seemed to want to go an extra step further than ELP did... Not sure it was their intention

Stewart was highly influenced by Ratledge, Crane and Nice-era Emerson to start with, but I could never really see the Egg/ELP parable myself. To me they were two wholly different musical concepts, at least from Egg's second album and on. Very formalist and "serious" (yes, despite those intendedly pedestrian lyrics), partly even academic in their approach to experimentalism - and nothing like the circussy mannerisms of ELP (whom I still like, I just think they were about completely other perspectives on artistry).

I love The Polite Force and The Civil Surface, as well as some of the wilder and more "proto'ish" stuff from their debut.

[alanterrill]

To that list I'd add :
Steve Hillage - Fish Rising
Hugh Hopper -Hopper Tunity Box

Both of these have a significant amount of Stewart's input
and personally I'd rate them above DS Al Coda and Missing Pieces


You need the National Health albums now:

1.National Health
2.Of Queues and Cures
3.D.S. Al Coda
Missing Pieces(Bruford's all over this one.)
Or,the better way would be to seek and find,Complete(all 3 studio albums on 2 discs). and make sure you get Missing Pieces,because most of those have Bruford and Hillage,a treasured first and sad last.

Also, the album,Khan-Space Shanty is riddled with Stewart's amazing keyboard expertise.

[Rand Kelly]

To that list I'd add :
Steve Hillage - Fish Rising
Hugh Hopper -Hopper Tunity Box

Both of these have a significant amount of Stewart's input
and personally I'd rate them above DS Al Coda and Missing Pieces

I didn't know about the Hugh Hopper.thanks!

[ItalProgRules]

What I like best about EGG is that I find them to have a terrific combination of the challenging and accessible. I do kind of get the "Canterbury ELP" tag. In their rockier moments, I do catch a whiff of ELP. but EGG were their own, unique, idiosyncratic group.

I pull their albums out a LOT, very entertaining stuff.

[calyx]

To define Egg's musical aims based those of ELP is complete chronological nonsense, since ELP were barely just getting ready to rehearse by the time Egg recorded their 2nd album, "The Polite Force", in May 1970. Surely, in retrospect, as a former big fan of The Nice, Dave Stewart for one has commented that Emerson went in the wrong direction with ELP, but this had no bearing on what Egg were doing.

Emerson was an influence on Egg in a general way - because of his contribution to "classical rock", and because The Nice featured the organ as main instrument (in both cases, earlier incarnations of both bands had a guitarist, when they then had to learn to function without). But in terms of musical content, Egg were far more advanced at that stage, with main composer Mont Campbell having digested his influences (Stravinsky first and foremost) in a way Emerson hadn't. On the first ELP album, Emerson was progressing from making rock adaptations of Bach and Beethoven to making rock adaptations of Bartok and Mussorgsky. He still didn't have a strong compositional voice of his own - this began with "Tarkus" and only fully blossomed with "Brain Salad Surgery". But if you listen to the stuff of Egg's "Civil Surface" (composed in 1971-72), this is still more advanced (and consistently so) as "rock keyboard trio" music than much of "Karn Evil 9" for instance. imho.

[Paulrus]

To define Egg's musical aims based those of ELP is complete chronological nonsense, since ELP were barely just getting ready to rehearse by the time Egg recorded their 2nd album, "The Polite Force", in May 1970...

That's an interesting perspective, Aymeric. I might add that KE isn't totally to blame for the direction ELP took relative to Egg (not that it totally sucked!) and for that you could look at the differences between Emo and Dave Sinclair's compositional partners. I don't think you could find two more different singing bassists than Greg Lake and Mont Campbell, and surely they had a huge part in the way each band developed.

[Lopez]

I, too, enjoy Egg/Uriel very much. When I was in London in 1971 on a high-school trip, I saw a poster on a pole advertising an Egg show in which they were to be joined by Lol Coxhill. Not allowed out alone at night on that trip, I would have killed to have been at that show.

[Scrotum Scissor]

To define Egg's musical aims based those of ELP is complete chronological nonsense, since ELP were barely just getting ready to rehearse by the time Egg recorded their 2nd album, "The Polite Force", in May 1970. [...]
Emerson was an influence on Egg in a general way - because of his contribution to "classical rock", and because The Nice featured the organ as main instrument (in both cases, earlier incarnations of both bands had a guitarist, when they then had to learn to function without). But in terms of musical content, Egg were far more advanced at that stage, with main composer Mont Campbell having digested his influences (Stravinsky first and foremost) in a way Emerson hadn't. [...] if you listen to the stuff of Egg's "Civil Surface" (composed in 1971-72), this is still more advanced (and consistently so) as "rock keyboard trio" music than much of "Karn Evil 9" for instance. imho.

Thx for that; I agree absolutely wholeheartedly. There's a completely different angle to the compositional approach with Stewart and Emerson, in that the first quite obviously at a very early stage seemed to free himself from the "outer" cultural concept of the "rock group" and its limitations. Already on The Polite Force - which was probably the most formally advanced "rock" record released in Britain up 'til then - you can hear that they are aiming for something all of their own, and highly transgressing as far as the hitherto possibilities of rock/pop are concerned. One of the most interesting aspects lies in the way many "prog fans" in retrospect appear to not "get" the "Boilk" montage, seeing how it somehow doesn't seem to fit the exhibitionist performance aesthetic usually denoting "complex rock" - somewhat ignorantly towards the fact that the piece itself was a more or less groundbreaking piece of "rock" musique concrete for its time (check S. Stapleton for that asessment).

And the same goes for Marian Varga/Collegium Musicum; a declared post-modernist dwelling mostly on noise textures and free improv - yet they were apparently expected to come across "like ELP" due to their instrumentation.

[calyx]

There's a completely different angle to the compositional approach with Stewart and Emerson...

Be aware that the composer in Egg was Mont Campbell, the bass player, not Dave Stewart. Stewart only wrote bits and pieces for Egg, and very little of their most ambitious pieces. His main contribution to the 1st two albums, apart from a couple of classical lifts on the 1st LP, was the bulk of "A Visit To Newport Hospital" on the 2nd - not bad at all, btw. But he only began composing in earnest in 1971-72 with "Losbter In Cleavage Probe" then "Homerton", both of which turned up on the first Hatfield LP. These pieces, incidentally, were written under heavy influence from Campbell's own Stravinsky-influenced writing, a trait which persisted throughout Stewart's "prog" period (see National Health's "The Collapso", which briefly quotes from "The Rite Of Spring" [as well as from VdGG's cover of George Martin's "Theme One"]).

As for "Boilk", to not like it doesn't necessarily equate not "getting" it. I think I "get" it, but I would concur with many of those who'd rather have another chunk of metrically-obsessed ultra-complex Campbellisms to end side 1 of "The Polite Force" than this...

[Scrotum Scissor]

Be aware that the composer in Egg was Mont Campbell, the bass player, not Dave Stewart. Stewart only wrote bits and pieces for Egg, and very little of their most ambitious pieces. [...] These pieces, incidentally, were written under heavy influence from Campbell's own Stravinsky-influenced writing, a trait which persisted throughout Stewart's "prog" period (see National Health's "The Collapso", which briefly quotes from "The Rite Of Spring" [as well as from VdGG's cover of George Martin's "Theme One"]).

As for "Boilk", to not like it doesn't necessarily equate not "getting" it. I think I "get" it, but I would concur with many of those who'd rather have another chunk of metrically-obsessed ultra-complex Campbellisms to end side 1 of "The Polite Force" than this...

Yes, I seem to remember an earlier elaboration from your hand on the Stewart/Campbell split role as far as compositions go. And I also remember Stewart at some point stating that Campbell in fact was one of his own main influences; this later gets quite apparent with some of the early NHealth works (as found on the Missing Pieces CD). But as for "Boilk", I'm not equalling disliking to "not getting" - I'm referring to several examples I've read testifying to the notion that the piece is bad or unworthy seeing how it essentially doesn't qualify as "prog", totally disregarding the fact that the "prog" cultural construction didn't exist in November 1970. I actually think it's quite cool myself. But not because it is or isn't "prog".

[ItalProgRules]

I like "Boilk." I also like Can's "Unfinished." I'm funny that way. :)

[Watanabe]

I love Stewart's organ playing on it's own merits, but i've always felt Campbell's compositional approach in Egg would have benefited greatly from a lead keyboardist who had a much stronger left-hand and more balanced left-right contrapuntal playing style.

[gregory]

Civil Surface for me is great album. Of The Polite Force I like only Visit To The Hospital. The second side is full of boring riffs. Their debut I don't remember, though I have it.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Of The Polite Force I like only Visit To The Hospital. The second side is full of boring riffs.

"Long Piece no. 3"? Oh man, to me this is one of the greatest things done in the early era of "prog". I absolutely love the way in which they throw out everything thought to be superfluous and just cut right to the bare bone of essential ideas - and then run through it with death-defying vigour. I also think some of those "riffs" and themes are so elegantly constructed in terms of dynamic and harmony that they work perfectly all of their own. But the band was probably working at their most formalist note with this piece; I don't think it's supposed to be anything like "Tarkus" or a pseudo-symphonic "rock opus" - it's just a separate entity of experimental form all by itself. But each to his own, I guess.

[ItalProgRules]

"Long Piece no. 3"? Oh man, to me this is one of the greatest things done in the early era of "prog". I absolutely love the way in which they throw out everything thought to be superfluous and just cut right to the bare bone of essential ideas - and then run through it with death-defying vigour. I also think some of those "riffs" and themes are so elegantly constructed in terms of dynamic and harmony that they work perfectly all of their own. But the band was probably working at their most formalist note with this piece; I don't think it's supposed to be anything like "Tarkus" or a pseudo-symphonic "rock opus" - it's just a separate entity of experimental form all by itself. But each to his own, I guess.

I'm with you, Long Piece #3 just kills. :up

[gregory]

"Long Piece no. 3"? Oh man, to me this is one of the greatest things done in the early era of "prog". I absolutely love the way in which they throw out everything thought to be superfluous and just cut right to the bare bone of essential ideas - and then run through it with death-defying vigour.
I see your point, but those ideas appeared idiomatic to me, so the whole trick escapes me..


I also think some of those "riffs" and themes are so elegantly constructed in terms of dynamic and harmony that they work perfectly all of their own. But the band was probably working at their most formalist note with this piece; I don't think it's supposed to be anything like "Tarkus" or a pseudo-symphonic "rock opus" - it's just a separate entity of experimental form all by itself. But each to his own, I guess.
That''s interesting description, thank you. I'll give another spin to Long Piece. I agree it has nothing in common with Tarkus, they're different bands solving different tasks. I'd rather compare Egg to Hatfield and the North..which is more meaningful for me.

[ItalProgRules]

I see your point, but those ideas appeared idiomatic to me, so the whole trick escapes me..

So, rather than being a side-long instrumental, "Long Piece #3" is a phrase where the words together have a meaning that is different from the dictionary definitions of the individual words?

I am not following.

[Romerovm]

You need the National Health albums now:

1.National Health
2.Of Queues and Cures
3.D.S. Al Coda
Missing Pieces(Bruford's all over this one.)
Or,the better way would be to seek and find,Complete(all 3 studio albums on 2 discs). and make sure you get Missing Pieces,because most of those have Bruford and Hillage,a treasured first and sad last.

Also, the album,Khan-Space Shanty is riddled with Stewart's amazing keyboard expertise.


National Health is amazing indeed.

I have an extra copy in MINT condition of Of Queues and Cures on the Esoteric label. If anyone is interested PM me.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

considering the recording date of the debut, this was some *extremely* advanced stuff!

[calyx]

considering the recording date of the debut, this was some *extremely* advanced stuff!

All the more so if you consider the two leading members of the band were then both 18 years old...

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

All the more so if you consider the two leading members of the band were then both 18 years old...quite honestly... I prefer it to ITCOCK, Bitches Brew, Soft Machine and Tony Williams Emergency which were all the most Progressive (with a capital P) Rock (combined with other things) recordings through the year 1970

[Akustika]

Are there any legitimate sites for downloading Egg albums? The usual places don’t seem to carry them…

[JKL2000]

I heartily recommend this little book about Egg, Copious Notes:

https://www.burningshed.com/store/books/product/365/717/

It's very funny and interesting - it's one of the music-related books I reread fairly often, like Julian Cope's Krautrocksampler. It's written by the band members and edited by Dave Stewart, or something like that. I've been predicting for a long time that when it's OOP there will be some disappointed people.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I heartily recommend this little book about Egg, Copious Notes:

It's very funny and interesting - it's one of the music-related books I reread fairly often

If it's anywhere near the level of fun and sheer lingual brilliance of Deke Leonard's book on Man (the legendary Walisian band), then I'd definitely like to have a go at this.

[Progulike]

Definitely a good read - it supplements the sleeve notes in the two archive CDs released by the band.

www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/ (http://www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/)

[PROGMONSTER]

First 2 are cool. The bonus tracks on the first are quality also. Civil surface is strong on Side 1. Side 2 seems unfinished really

[JKL2000]

If it's anywhere near the level of fun and sheer lingual brilliance of Deke Leonard's book on Man (the legendary Walisian band), then I'd definitely like to have a go at this.

Not sure I'd say brilliant, but it has a lot of fun and interesting stories and observations about the band's trials and travails playing gigs around England back in the day. And it *is* well written and literate, but more fun than brilliant. If, like me, you're interested in what the life of working musicians was like back then in the UK, a good read.

[Dave (in MA)]

Definitely a good read - it supplements the sleeve notes in the two archive CDs released by the band.Are they counting the Arzachel release as one of the Egg archival CDs, or am I missing something?

[Progulike]

Are they counting the Arzachel release as one of the Egg archival CDs, or am I missing something?

You're not missing anything. The two archival CDs are Arzachel Collectors Edition by Uriel (the three Egg guys with guitarist Steve Hillage) and The Metronomical Society by Egg.

[happytheman]

You're not missing anything. The two archival CDs are Arzachel Collectors Edition by Uriel (the three Egg guys with guitarist Steve Hillage) and The Metronomical Society by Egg.

Just did a search for this release because of the Wikipedia article.. I can only find the original Arzachel release w/out the bonus tracks... pricey at that.. do you know of any other places that might list this release in the USA?

[Dave (in MA)]

Just did a search for this release because of the Wikipedia article.. I can only find the original Arzachel release w/out the bonus tracks... pricey at that.. do you know of any other places that might list this release in the USA?Hit JKL2000's link, choose USA in the right sidebar, buy ($17.55 USD).

[Digital_Man]

Still have not heard this band, I've been meaning to check out there music for ages.


Me neither although I have heard bits and pieces here and there. Usually they are recommended to not only Canterbury fans but to those who like ELP, The Nice, Le Orme or Atomic Rooster.

[happytheman]

Hit JKL2000's link, choose USA in the right sidebar, buy ($17.55 USD).
I went there shortly after posting my question.. did not however realize there was a USA option.. I will revisit.. Thanks!

[Scrotum Scissor]

Me neither although I have heard bits and pieces here and there. Usually they are recommended to not only Canterbury fans but to those who like ELP, The Nice, Le Orme or Atomic Rooster.



Start with The Polite Force - one of the most amazing displays of actually *composed* "keyboard rock" ever made.

[Progulike]

Just did a search for this release because of the Wikipedia article.. I can only find the original Arzachel release w/out the bonus tracks... pricey at that.. do you know of any other places that might list this release in the USA?

Most Arzachel CDs are bootlegs. The only official band release is the Arzachel Collectors Edition CD, available worldwide at www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/ (https://www.burningshed.com/store/eggarchive/). US buyers should select the 'USA' option. If you buy this version, the musicians *actually get paid* (gasp). Burning Shed (the distributor) is very reliable and has a great reputaion for ethical trading.

The album (recorded when the members were very young) is psychedelic rather than prog, but it shows where Egg evolved from. The sleeve notes of this album, The Metronomical Society CD by Egg and the Copious Notes booklet, written by the band and their friends, explains the group's history in detail with some great period photos.

[Phlakaton]

I heard the Civil Surface first and it just floored me. So awesome. That was a bitch to find on cd back in the mid 90s too. Was that the Virgin label?

I bought a sweet copy of The Polite Force on vinyl and holy smokes... think about this - could you imagine trying to actually compose something that sounds like that? What a forward thinking and progressive album for the time. Heavy duty and thick! Metronomical Society is great and I got the signed copy. Love the little book they turned out on that period from Burning Shed too. Almost as funny as the book that came with National Health Complete - Dave is hilarious.

[Yves]

Weren't there members of this band also in the band Chicken? Which came first?

[Progbear]

I heard the Civil Surface first and it just floored me. So awesome. That was a bitch to find on cd back in the mid 90s too. Was that the Virgin label?

I bought a sweet copy of The Polite Force on vinyl and holy smokes... think about this - could you imagine trying to actually compose something that sounds like that? What a forward thinking and progressive album for the time. Heavy duty and thick! Metronomical Society is great and I got the signed copy. Love the little book they turned out on that period from Burning Shed too. Almost as funny as the book that came with National Health Complete - Dave is hilarious.

I believe Civil Surface was a Caroline Blue Plate release. I really need Metronomical Society to complete my Egg collection. Probably the liner notes alone, if Dave’s on National Health Complete (now a somewhat ironic title, as this pre-dated both Missing Pieces and Play Time) are anything to go by, will make this worth the price of admission.

Lastly, people keep telling me the title to The Polite Force is a “pun.” Clearly I’m dense, but even after twenty-ish years of owning this album, I still don’t get it. :huh

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria

N.P.:“Ice Cream Phoenix”-Jefferson Airplane/Crown of Creation

[itserik]

Lastly, people keep telling me the title to The Polite Force is a “pun.” Clearly I’m dense, but even after twenty-ish years of owning this album, I still don’t get it. :huh

its a play on Police Force.

[alanterrill]

[QUOTE=Progbear;132148]

Lastly, people keep telling me the title to The Polite Force is a “pun.” Clearly I’m dense, but even after twenty-ish years of owning this album, I still don’t get it. :huh

-------------

Try changing the t for a c. The Police Force, the Civil Service, the National Health Service, all very English institutions but probably meaningless in the US. National Health is not a pun but there used to be a style of glasses that you got if you couldn't afford private frames -there was just one style of round wire framed glasses that became known as 'National Health specs'. Dave Stewart used to wear them (the type on the first National Health LP).

[Progbear]

Start with The Polite Force - one of the most amazing displays of actually *composed* "keyboard rock" ever made.

It’s probably their most “difficult” album (the debut is a far easier listen) but, in the end, I find it to be their most rewarding. It’s some extremely sophisticated (rhythmically, melodically and harmonically, a rather rare combination altogether) composition. “Long Piece No. 3” is definitely rough going the first few times through, but now that it’s had plenty of chances to sink in, it’s one of my most beloved extended prog tracks.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria

N.P.:“Fall of the Leaf”-Gryphon/Treason

[JIF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzyi2U6BUAoHeard this song on Progression where I used to have a Sirius subscription. It floored me, but I have not gotten an Egg CD yet.

[Polypet]

Weren't there members of this band also in the band Chicken? Which came first?

HA! :lol

Kim

[rcarlberg]

Actually,every band that involves Dave Stewart is fave(Arzachel,Khan,Hatfields,National Health,Bruford,Am I missing any?)!!!Yep, you are. There's a funny little recording called "Neil's Heavy Concept Record" which has Dave Stewart (and Barbara Gaskin!) all over it, not only playing organ but also synths, bass and guitar(!) Hilarious liner notes, some REALLY good covers, & lots of happy Eggish moments. Well worth searching out.

[JeffCarney]

All three albums plus Metronomical Society plus Copious Notes as a companion piece for reading.

It's hard to think of many things more essential in my collection.

I still feel a bit sad every time I listen to The Civil Surface because it is basically a drum solo with backing from a bass and guitar, but fortunately Metronomical Society solves that to some extent with even better versions of that material culled from BBC recordings and featuring a more balanced sound

[Joe F.]

Me neither although I have heard bits and pieces here and there. Usually they are recommended to not only Canterbury fans but to those who like ELP, The Nice, Le Orme or Atomic Rooster.

Ceratinly for fans of Canterbury.

To a lesser extent ELP, etc..

However, I personally don't think there is any common ground for fans of Atomic Rooster (who I love). AR were much more of a keyboard driven hard rock band, more in common with Purple but blazing their own take on that sound.

[polmico]

Yep, you are.

Also missing the Robert Wyatt live album Live at the Drury Hall. Not a lot of Stewart soloing on it, but a lot of really nice Stewart playing.

Oh. It's also got Robert Wyatt. So there's that.

[Dave (in MA)]

I definitely hear some similarity to the Farlowe-era Atomic Rooster.

[JeffCarney]

I definitely hear some similarity to the Farlowe-era Atomic Rooster.

I think the Crane similarities are more derived from early Arthur Brown.

Egg was disbanded by the time Farlowe even joined AR. Unless you're talking about "similarities" the other way around.

[Joe F.]

I definitely hear some similarity to the Farlowe-era Atomic Rooster.

That's cool.

We all hear things differently.

[Dave (in MA)]

I think the Crane similarities are more derived from early Arthur Brown.

Egg was disbanded by the time Farlowe even joined AR. Unless you're talking about "similarities" the other way around.
I'm talking about "similarities" in terms of "reminds me of" regardless of what years they were active.

[Kavus Torabi]

Don't wish to derail this wonderful thread but after seeing Neil's Heavy Concept Album get mentioned I can't help myself...
For non-British folk, 'Neil' was the hippy character from the early 80s UK sitcom, The Young Ones.
For my generation it was probably the closest thing we had to the previous generation's Monty Python, in that EVERYBODY of our age watched it, it seemed subversive and most parents hated it.
As a boy, for reasons that would become clear over the next few decades, I totally identified with Neil.
The popularity of the show and particularly the Neil character meant there were spin off books and records. Neil even had chart success.
Growing up with no older siblings in the cultural wasteland of Plymouth, Neil's Heavy Concept Album (and to a lesser extent Neil's Book Of The Dead, which featured a 'Homage to Hillage page) was so much more than a comedy album. For my pre-adolescent self it became a go-to guide for music.
Through this album I discovered Syd era Floyd, Traffic, The Incredible String Band, Caravan, Tomorrow, Egg, Hatfields, psychedelia etc etc.
This single 'novelty' album started out my journey into what I like to call 'funny music' (not funny ha-ha, mind) that endures to this day.

Plus, as much as I love The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter, Neil's version of The Amoeba Song will ALWAYS be the definitive one to my ears.

[polmico]

^ If it contains any lentil recipes, I'm in!

[Kavus Torabi]

It does have the epic 'Lentil Nightmare'.

[Progbear]

Don't wish to derail this wonderful thread but after seeing Neil's Heavy Concept Album get mentioned I can't help myself...
For non-British folk, 'Neil' was the hippy character from the early 80s UK sitcom, The Young Ones.
For my generation it was probably the closest thing we had to the previous generation's Monty Python, in that EVERYBODY of our age watched it, it seemed subversive and most parents hated it.
As a boy, for reasons that would become clear over the next few decades, I totally identified with Neil.
The popularity of the show and particularly the Neil character meant there were spin off books and records. Neil even had chart success.
Growing up with no older siblings in the cultural wasteland of Plymouth, Neil's Heavy Concept Album (and to a lesser extent Neil's Book Of The Dead, which featured a 'Homage to Hillage page) was so much more than a comedy album. For my pre-adolescent self it became a go-to guide for music.
Through this album I discovered Syd era Floyd, Traffic, The Incredible String Band, Caravan, Tomorrow, Egg, Hatfields, psychedelia etc etc.
This single 'novelty' album started out my journey into what I like to call 'funny music' (not funny ha-ha, mind) that endures to this day.

Plus, as much as I love The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter, Neil's version of The Amoeba Song will ALWAYS be the definitive one to my ears.

The Young Ones will definitely be familiar to Americans of a certain age, as it aired in tandem with Monty Python on MTV back in their early 80s heyday. It became quite popular and remains a cult favourite in the USA. I remember when my local PBS station finally caved in to demand and added The Young Ones to their “British Night,” how apologetic they were about it every time the announcers had to announce the lead-in. I guess that’s because a lot of their audience was...well...remember the episode of TYO where Vyvian goes on a lengthy rant about The Good Life*? Well, that was the sort of show that was their cash cow; their audience full of Anglophilic little old ladies fantasizing about travelling to England one day and have it be exactly like To the Manor Born. One of their most popular shows, inexplicably, was the “why do people think this is funny again?” waste of talent known as Keeping Up Appearances. My parents loved that show, and I never understood them.

*retitled Good Neighbors [sic] here because, hilariously, they didn’t want people to confuse it with a short-lived sitcom of the same name starring Larry Hagman and Donna Mills!

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

“It doesn't get any more...like this. Than this.” --Anders Lundquist

N.P.:“Paradise Blue”-A Band Called “O”/Within Reach

[alanterrill]

One of fave early prog bands.Actually,every band that involves Dave Stewart is fave(Arzachel,Khan,Hatfields,National Health,Bruford,Am I missing any?)!!!
Just remembered one more -Ghoulies had an album called Dogged by Dogma which featured Dave Stewart and Pip Pyle on several tracks. Not essential but a nice little album with some good Stewart parts here and there. Never issued on CD though.

[PROGMONSTER]

I noticed Monts vocals sounded weaker after each album.

[Udi Koomran]

TOne of the most interesting aspects lies in the way many "prog fans" in retrospect appear to not "get" the "Boilk" montage, seeing how it somehow doesn't seem to fit the exhibitionist performance aesthetic usually denoting "complex rock" - somewhat ignorantly towards the fact that the piece itself was a more or less groundbreaking piece of "rock" musique concrete for its time (check S. Stapleton for that asessment).
.

Reading these pages left me with nothing to add until I read this
Yes this reminded me how much I adore this track and how many times this has been dismissed by all those "prog" reviewers as garbage or filler
Probably the same writers who came up with the ELP comparison
This is still fresh and relevant for me
Not too far from Die Trip Computer Die actually !

[Kai]

The Young Ones will definitely be familiar to Americans of a certain age, as it aired in tandem with Monty Python on MTV back in their early 80s heyday. It became quite popular and remains a cult favourite in the USA. I remember when my local PBS station finally caved in to demand and added The Young Ones to their “British Night,” how apologetic they were about it every time the announcers had to announce the lead-in. I guess that’s because a lot of their audience was...well...remember the episode of TYO where Vyvian goes on a lengthy rant about The Good Life*? Well, that was the sort of show that was their cash cow; their audience full of Anglophilic little old ladies fantasizing about travelling to England one day and have it be exactly like To the Manor Born. One of their most popular shows, inexplicably, was the “why do people think this is funny again?” waste of talent known as Keeping Up Appearances. My parents loved that show, and I never understood them.


Well, I love both The Young Ones and Keeping Up Appearances, so I suppose that's my credibility down the pan either way. Here in Finland, The Young Ones was first shown in 1986 - 87, and has only had one or two full re-runs since, even though it was popular with the "young ones" and had a domestic DVD release eight years ago. Keeping Up Appearances, on the other hand, was first shown in 1997 - 1999, and just yesterday began its ninth re-run (with at least one or two rounds in some of the cable channels over the years). I thought that bit of info might cheer you up. |)

I've not heard Neil's Heavy Concept Album, but I did take Neil's musical advice from "Summer Holiday", when I was first exploring progressive music. Alas, I only liked one of the two bands he recommended. But fifty per cent is still pretty good.

Sorry for any further derailing this post may have caused. Back to Egg.

[Progbear]

Keeping Up Appearances is one of those shows like Are You Being Served? that is just reran forever and never dies. And while both of them have the same repetitive jokes in every episode, at least the characters in AYBS are somewhat likeable/relatable. With KUA it’s just Shrill Grating Obnoxious Annoying Lead Character and everyone else trying to avoid her. And the running gags aren’t even very funny. The saddest part of all is the talented cast wasted on this repetitious drivel.

MTV actually ran a TV ad for Neil’s Heavy Concept Album. Since it was a TV offer only, I guess it didn’t get a proper US release and they were just re-selling stock of British import LPs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCLr2H8Oz1M

The only copy of it I ever saw was in an import bin.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"It is not an obscenity to be free. It is a divine right." --Annette Peacock

N.P.:nothing

[Progulike]

One of the most interesting aspects lies in the way many "prog fans" in retrospect appear to not "get" the "Boilk" montage, seeing how it somehow doesn't seem to fit the exhibitionist performance aesthetic usually denoting "complex rock" - somewhat ignorantly towards the fact that the piece itself was a more or less groundbreaking piece of "rock" musique concrete for its time (check S. Stapleton for that asessment).

Good point Mr. Scissor. I reckon the sound collage titled Boilk :) makes more sense when you consider the psychedelic background of the Uriel musicians. In the sleeve notes of Arzachel Collectors Edition, Stewart lists Syd Barrett's Pink Floyd as an important early influence. Boilk (love that title) is a trippy, slowly-evolving musical episode which explores the possibilities of multitracked studio sound - a complete contrast to Egg's usual intricate note-based compositions, but an important part of the band's musical character nonetheless.

You can hear Stewart attempting a live, one-man version of this kind of sonic exploration on Blane Over Camden on the Metronomical Society CD. This was recorded at Egg's last Roundhouse gig - man, I wish I'd been there that night!

[Progbear]

I totally get “Boilk,” both the one-minute version and the “long” version on TPF. They’re essentially the same piece, going through the same passages, the longer version just explores these passages more thoroughly. Of course, the short version lacks the Bach lead-out but it would be really dull if every version of a piece were completely uniform and predictable.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

N.P.:“Transmotude”-Blast/A Sophisticated Face

[ribors]

Thanks guys, my wallet is a lot lighter from this thread ;). I just ordered Metronomical Society, Arzachel collectors edition, plus Copious Notes (and for good measure Hattitude--I already have Hatwise Choice) from Burning Shed.

[Dave (in MA)]

Thanks guys, my wallet is a lot lighter from this thread ;). I just ordered Metronomical Society, Arzachel collectors edition, plus Copious Notes (and for good measure Hattitude--I already have Hatwise Choice) from Burning Shed. I'm afraid that's going to happen to me, too (except I already have the Hatfield).

[Watanabe]

It seems a bit forward to suggest a lot of people don't like Boilk because it doesn't fit a pre-conceived notion of progressive rock and they don't get it.

That might be true for some, but i prefer to assume most listeners will have had sufficient intellect to judge it on it's own merits.

[Udi Koomran]

"Then comes the really tragic thing about this otherwise superb album: 9 minutes of completely pointless noise and sound effects in "Boilk". If these 9 minutes instead had been filled up with a track of the same quality as the rest of the album, then "The Polite Force" would have been one of the true keyboard-progressive rock classics of the 70's, in league with "Brain Salad Surgery" and "Spartacus"." .vintageprog.com

[Progulike]

9 minutes of completely pointless noise and sound effects

One listener's opinion. Here's another (posted on the Head Heritage site under the monicker of Venus Willendorf):


Boilk... 9 minutes 23 seconds of warped genius.

One man's meat, etc.

[zombywoof]

There's something to be said for an artist who not only harnesses musical tones, but also non musical tones to make a coherent piece of music.

Isn't music, at it's core, the manipulation of sound? Music existed before conventional musical instruments, afterall...

[Zeuhlmate]

^^#87
Dogged By Dogma


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEnJk0X_uF8
Jake Bowie (fretless bass), Elaine Morgan (lead-backing vocals), Pip Pyle (drums), Dave Stewart (Keyboards), Charlie Summers (guitars, vocals), James Driscoll Junior (vocal).

Who is Jake Bowie ?? He is good !

[Scrotum Scissor]

Yes this reminded me how much I adore this track and how many times this has been dismissed by all those "prog" reviewers as garbage or filler
Probably the same writers who came up with the ELP comparison
This is still fresh and relevant for me
Not too far from Die Trip Computer Die actually!

Classic Rock Magazine really disliked The Polite Force, and on the exact reason you point to here; "this isn't the way to sound like ELP!"

[Phlakaton]

I dont think anything on any Egg album is to be taken lightly. I'd play Egg before ELP any day of the week. Or ever. They're in my top 5 bands ever. Period.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I dont think anything on any Egg album is to be taken lightly. I'd play Egg before ELP any day of the week. Or ever.

With this I agree. Very, very unique and uniquely interesting "rock" group.

[jkelman]

My review of Esoteric's Civil Surface (http://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-civil-surface-egg-esoteric-recordings-review-by-john-kelman.php) reissue and the self produced Metronomical Society, Uriel and Copious Notes (http://www.allaboutjazz.com/uriel-and-egg-the-road-to-hatfield-and-beyond-by-john-kelman.php)

[Phlakaton]

My review of Esoteric's Civil Surface (http://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-civil-surface-egg-esoteric-recordings-review-by-john-kelman.php) reissue and the self produced Metronomical Society, Uriel and Copious Notes (http://www.allaboutjazz.com/uriel-and-egg-the-road-to-hatfield-and-beyond-by-john-kelman.php)

Very nice write-up jkelman. I jumped at the chance to get the signed copy of Metronomical Society and the Copious Notes. A great day it was receiving that package!

Back in I think 1992 I sent a letter to Dave Stewart through email - I think it was email... anyway - I got a nice hand written note on a catalog he sent to me about latest cds he was selling with Barbara Gaskin. Such a nice thing to get! I was floored. He's one of my musical heros.

[Polypet]

Thanks for the review there John! Although i don't have the Esoteric reissue, i've always had all of the Egg albums (first on vinyl when they originally came out, and then later on CD as i could find them). I got one of the hand signed copies of Metronomic and think it's just fabulous.

Egg were one of my biggest influences, personally. The intersection with Henry Cow and that whole "RIO" universe as well as the influences we shared
(Zappa, modern jazz and classical music, tape composition, etc) made them my favourite of the bunch. I spent many fine hours learning and jamming
along to the Long Pieces on drums. The ending bit was always a sure-fire way of clearing my house of any friends or family.

Good times :lol

Great records and Dave has gone on to create even more wonderful music, of course. I need to check out Mont Campbell's solo things. I'm sad to say,
after all of these years, i still haven't heard much of it. I know it's excellent. He was one of my favourite writers.

You can't go wrong exploring both Egg and any of Dave Stewart's later work. He's quite good. :)

Kim

[JeffCarney]

My review of Esoteric's Civil Surface (http://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-civil-surface-egg-esoteric-recordings-review-by-john-kelman.php)

Nice review. Not sure I can agree with the perceived similarities to the Hatfields, however. Most of the compositions of The Civil Surface had been fully realized and arranged several years prior to its recording. For example, Stewart was using Hohner electric piano in Egg by around late '71, so this additional color was there, but not put into the context of an album proper. Sure, since the album wasn't recorded until HatN was fully underway, there are some dots which connect, but the songs weren't changed a heck of a lot from where they stood originally, and obviously that was well before the existence of HatN.

It's truly a shame that Egg didn't get to release a third album right in the thick of their career. Had stuff like "Enneagram" come out in 1972, I think it would have been put into a somewhat different historical context. And I would also suspect the production problems which plague The Civil Surface might not have reared their head. Had they worked out one more album with Deram, would Robin Black have still been at the controls? Surely the sound he and producer Neil Slaven had attained for Egg on The Polite Force was fairly remarkable and I think has aged quite well. Whereas when Dave Ruffell and John Purdy took over engineering for the Virgin album, Egg tried to produce themselves. They are credited with the same on the debut, which sounded very good but perhaps the engineers (Roy Thomas Baker, Peter Gallen) made the difference? On CS the result is one of the biggest sonic misses of its day. An organ trio where the drums are the lead instrument is not exactly a sound that does those amazing compositions justice. As someone generally disinterested in modern "remixing" of vintage recordings, I must say that this album would be a prime candidate for such an endeavor.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I need to check out Mont Campbell's solo things.

I have only heard/got Music From a Round Tower, but it's an almost exceptionally intriguing large-scale work of not-quite-worldmusic, not-quite-contemporary. Absolutely one of a kind.

Just don't expect much "rockin' out".

[NogbadTheBad]

I have only heard/got Music From a Round Tower, but it's an almost exceptionally intriguing large-scale work of not-quite-worldmusic, not-quite-contemporary. Absolutely one of a kind.

Just don't expect much "rockin' out".

His "Music From A Walled Garden" is very similar. I like both a lot, but they certainly don't rock.

[Polypet]

"Not rocking" is, needless to say, not a problem. Thanks for the detail guys :)

[Phlakaton]

So I have the old Virgin Blue Plate cd for The Civil Surface - I know the drums were mixed a little too out front on that - so - the Esoteric release - How different is it? Are the drums pulled back at all? I feel shame that I havent tracked it down already and know this but I love the cd I have so much I havent thought about it.

[JeffCarney]

So I have the old Virgin Blue Plate cd for The Civil Surface - I know the drums were mixed a little too out front on that - so - the Esoteric release - How different is it? Are the drums pulled back at all? I feel shame that I havent tracked it down already and know this but I love the cd I have so much I havent thought about it.

The problem with the old Virgin CD is that the treble is pretty heavily boosted. That's the worst thing you can do for drums even when they are mixed well, so on The Civil Surface it is really problematic since the drums are so high in the mix.

[Steve F.]

So I have the old Virgin Blue Plate cd for The Civil Surface - I know the drums were mixed a little too out front on that - so - the Esoteric release - How different is it? Are the drums pulled back at all? I feel shame that I havent tracked it down already and know this but I love the cd I have so much I havent thought about it.

The 'out front' drums don't bother me (sorry!), but this is a mixing issue and the Esoteric release is not remixed.

So, no!

[Phlakaton]

The 'out front' drums don't bother me (sorry!), but this is a mixing issue and the Esoteric release is not remixed.

So, no!

Thanks for the infos Jeff and Steve. I too love the way it sounds on my cd. No worries now. :)

[rcarlberg]

His "Music From A Walled Garden" is very similar. I like both a lot, but they certainly don't rock.Both are absolutely unique, "ethnic music for English eccentrics" with something new to be heard every time you play them. Two of the very few discs you can play twice or three times in a row and not notice, so involving are they.

i absolutely ADORE them.

[Genital Giant]

I dont think anything on any Egg album is to be taken lightly. I'd play Egg before ELP any day of the week. Or ever. They're in my top 5 bands ever. Period.

Yeah, when I first heard Egg, I thought "this is like a hip version of ELP".

[Kcrimso]

I love both ELP and Egg. Should I consult a doctor?

[Scrotum Scissor]

I love both ELP and Egg. Should I consult a doctor?

I like much ELP. I love most Egg.

But then again I'm already insane.

[Phlakaton]

I like much ELP. I love most Egg.

But then again I'm already insane.

That would be my affliction too. I enjoy a lot of ELP too. Egg though... different beast.

[m0n0mania]

Here's a funny old thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCAb7eYOXNs
May contain Egg.

[JeffCarney]

Yeah, when I first heard Egg, I thought "this is like a hip version of ELP".

Or an "unhip" version of The Nice, Soft Machine and The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown.

But really, much of their material was so highly original that comparisons don't really work. I would think the average fan of early ELP would probably find much to enjoy in Egg.

[JJ88]

^Yes, I agree Jeff. I don't really like the sneering at the popular groups I'm seeing, nor the implication that you are somehow conservative if you think 'Boilk' goes on a bit. (To be clear, I don't hate it/skip past it...but it's not my favourite track.) But the best of those first two albums is amongst the very best music the genre has to offer. 'A Visit To Newport Hospital', I don't think prog gets any better!

I've not heard 'The Civil Surface'...it never had that great a reputation.

[Scrotum Scissor]

^Yes, I agree Jeff. I don't really like the sneering at the popular groups I'm seeing, nor the implication that you are somehow conservative if you think 'Boilk' goes on a bit.

But this is NOT what's been argued here; rather it is the apparent tendency towards stressing an alleged obligation for some relentless "genre-riders" to point out that "Boilk" doesn't belong with the purported set standards evident in the remaining album. It's not that suspected "symph versus avant"-discourse playing.

And I think The Civil Surface has a more than swell reputation with the listeners that actually KNOW the album for what it states musically. Sonically it may be different, although I personally agree with Steve that those (admittedly) overloud percussion tracks have become an integral part of this album's expression.

But I also concur with Jeff in that some or perhaps even many an ELP fan would find much to enjoy with Egg, particularly if they lean towards the debut ELP record (which is perhaps somewhat less stylistically rigid than their following releases).

[JeffCarney]

I've not heard 'The Civil Surface'...it never had that great a reputation.

That's news to me. The mix doesn't have best reputation but the album is absolutely stellar. I cannot imagine anyone enjoying the first two Egg albums and not owning The Civil Surface to complete the trilogy. "Enneagram" is arguably the most brilliant, fully realized and harmonically rich composition in their all too brief career.

[JeffCarney]

But this is NOT what's been argued here; rather it is the apparent tendency towards stressing an alleged obligation for some relentless "genre-riders" to point out that "Boilk" doesn't belong with the purported set standards evident in the remaining album. It's not that suspected "symph versus avant"-discourse playing.

And I think The Civil Surface has a more than swell reputation with the listeners that actually KNOW the album for what it states musically. Sonically it may be different, although I personally agree with Steve that those (admittedly) overloud percussion tracks have become an integral part of this album's expression.

But I also concur with Jeff in that some or perhaps even many an ELP fan would find much to enjoy with Egg, particularly if they lean towards the debut ELP record (which is perhaps somewhat less stylistically rigid than their following releases).

I'm typically of the "mix is finished history" mindset, and I'm not sure this album would ever sound right with the drums brought down.

But I can't say I will ever understand mixing an album where the main harmonic instrument (played by Dave Stewart, no less) takes such a backseat to the drums. Or that the drums will ever sound like a part of the album's "charm." Production-wise, I think this album is one of the biggest misses in Canterbury's history. Easily rivaling Soft Machine's Third. Had a song like "Enneagram" been mixed the way it sounded when originally recorded for the BBC, perhaps it could have made a well deserved dent on "Tarkus."

[Steve F.]

I think this album is one of the biggest misses in Canterbury's history. Easily rivaling Soft Machine's Third. I can't agree personally.

One is a mix decision (a poor decision perhaps, but everything is there and audible, even if not well balanced).

The other is just a shitty recording of very good music and no amount of mixing can fix that.



Had a song like "Enneagram" been mixed the way it sounded when originally recorded for the BBC, perhaps it could have made a well deserved dent on "Tarkus."

What do you mean by this? That it would have been as popular as Tarkus? As 'good' as Tarkus? Something else?

[Scrotum Scissor]

Had a song like "Enneagram" been mixed the way it sounded when originally recorded for the BBC, perhaps it could have made a well deserved dent on "Tarkus."

You may be right, but then again I've never heard that original version and already admire the Civil Surface one to bits. And I never thought "Tarkus" could ever hold even half a candle to "Long Piece no. 3" - and no, JJ88, this has nothing to do with the one being "avant" and the other "mere" "symph". It has to do with the themes and melodies, the arrangements, the performance, the harmonics and dynamics, the sound itself, the conceptual execution and then some.

[JeffCarney]

What do you mean by this? That it would have been as popular as Tarkus? As 'good' as Tarkus? Something else?

Just that I rate it at least as high if not higher than "Tarkus." And perhaps a mix more in line with how it originally sounded in 1971-1972 would have helped to have become better known.

[JeffCarney]

You may be right, but then again I've never heard that original version and already admire the Civil Surface one to bits.

You owe it yourself to own The Metronomical Society, yesterday:

http://www.egg-archive.com/

[Steve F.]

Just that I rate it at least as high if not higher than "Tarkus." And perhaps a mix more in line with how it originally sounded in 1971-1972 would have helped to have become better known.

Ah. OK. I rate many things higher than Tarkus. :lol

[Phlakaton]

That's news to me. The mix doesn't have best reputation but the album is absolutely stellar. I cannot imagine anyone enjoying the first two Egg albums and not owning The Civil Surface to complete the trilogy. "Enneagram" is arguably the most brilliant, fully realized and harmonically rich composition in their all too brief career.

That is the song that hit me square in the face. Enneagram. I dont think you can say you're a fan of Egg without knowing that one. I said to someone the other day --- it might be the most influential and my favorite song of any band - ever. It just has all the gravity and weight I lust over in music. I happen to love the sound of that record. No complaints here.

The other thing about Egg for me - they arent cute. There isnt any sugar in this stuff- it's heavy duty judy man! No playin' around.

[JeffCarney]

Ah. OK. I rate many things higher than Tarkus. :lol

Right, but "Enneagram" has some compositional similarities.

[Scrotum Scissor]

The other thing about Egg for me - they arent cute. There isnt any sugar in this stuff- it's heavy duty judy man!

True. They were one of few from the early bunch of British progressive acts that had my out-experimental music-theory trained bandmates sit up and listen back in the 90s during my years at university. With the usual suspects (except for KC, VdGG and some Yes and GGiant) they would mostly go "meh", but with Wyatt/Softs (up 'til and including Fourth), Magma and Egg they would take notice. I dunno, I suppose it had something to do with the apparent formality of these bands' artistic approach to their craft. The keysman in my band was completely floored by "Long Piece no. 3", immediately drawing the frequent parallell to Stravinsky etc. But it really gets going already on "A Visit to Newport Hospital"; those sludgy opening chords with that saggy yet precise drum pattern, drifting into composed abstraction and the oddest singalong tune - this was quite obviously something else altogether. I still think this is one of the most fascinating kickoffs to any rock album that I know.

You can imagine the guy's reaction on first hearing early Univers Zero! |)

[Luckie]

I agree that both Mont Campbell's solo albums - Music From A Round Tower and Music From A Walled Garden - are excellent, especially the latter which he was moved to write and record as a result of the encouraging correspondence he received from fans after he appeared in the BBC Prog Rock Britannia documentary.

Do also seek out the similar paean to exotic wind instruments and ethnic musical traditions, the album 'Safar' by The World Wind Band (actually just Campbell (as Dirk Campbell) and Jan Hendrickse). It was recorded between Campbell's two solo albums, and has a warmer sound.
CD UK:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Safar-World-Wind-Band/dp/B000HXDHDM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420764890&sr=8-1
Download USA: http://www.amazon.com/Safar-World-Wind-Campbell-Hendrickse/dp/B000QQYDEC/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1420765762&sr=1-1

[Phlakaton]

True. They were one of few from the early bunch of British progressive acts that had my out-experimental music-theory trained bandmates sit up and listen back in the 90s during my years at university. With the usual suspects (except for KC, VdGG and some Yes and GGiant) they would mostly go "meh", but with Wyatt/Softs (up 'til and including Fourth), Magma and Egg they would take notice. I dunno, I suppose it had something to do with the apparent formality of these bands' artistic approach to their craft. The keysman in my band was completely floored by "Long Piece no. 3", immediately drawing the frequent parallell to Stravinsky etc. But it really gets going already on "A Visit to Newport Hospital"; those sludgy opening chords with that saggy yet precise drum pattern, drifting into composed abstraction and the oddest singalong tune - this was quite obviously something else altogether. I still think this is one of the most fascinating kickoffs to any rock album that I know.

You can imagine the guy's reaction on first hearing early Univers Zero! |)

Enneagram was the one I loved the most - but my first time hearing Egg at all was when I got the record in the mail from an auction through Goldmine magazine around 1992... when those thick heavy notes hit the speakers I about shit myself it was so badass. Never had I heard something so perfect for my tastes. Was epic shit and if I was to say something was Lord of the Rings "precious" to me - it would be that record. I lost about a weeks worth of food to buy that bastard too! Worth ever starving moment.

[Polypet]

Ah. OK. I rate many things higher than Tarkus. :lol

Likewise :lol

As a drummer myself, i had no problem with the admittedly overhot mix of the drums. They're not obtrusive really and the album overall was so kickass and the drumming so brilliant... well, you know. The sound of the record is a big part of it's charm for me. Especially given that it was so unique when it first came out. I'd not heard anything quite so wonderful. I've heard far worse recordings where the music saved the record and far better where the music sucked (most modern pop).

As Jeff says, what's done is done. I wouldn't call it a miss either though. I think it's a fantastic album.

That said, i am quite glad to also own the Metronomic set. But the recordings on Civil Surface will always have a fond place in my heart. I still play it often. It's one of my favourite records of all time and Clive's work on it had a lot to do with it :up :up


I agree that both Mont Campbell's solo albums - Music From A Round Tower and Music From A Walled Garden - are excellent, especially the latter which he was moved to write and record as a result of the encouraging correspondence he received from fans after he appeared in the BBC Prog Rock Britannia documentary.

Do also seek out the similar paean to exotic wind instruments and ethnic musical traditions, the album 'Safar' by The World Wind Band (actually just Campbell (as Dirk Campbell) and Jan Hendrickse). It was recorded between Campbell's two solo albums, and has a warmer sound.
CD UK:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Safar-World-Wind-Band/dp/B000HXDHDM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420764890&sr=8-1
Download USA: http://www.amazon.com/Safar-World-Wind-Campbell-Hendrickse/dp/B000QQYDEC/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1420765762&sr=1-1

Ah - thanks for this :)

[Bytor]

Damn you all for speaking highly of The Metronomical Society, I need it now. The only Egg missing in my recipe ;-)

[Calabasas_Trafalgar]

The other thing about Egg for me - they arent cute. There isnt any sugar in this stuff- it's heavy duty judy man! No playin' around.

You need to hear "7 is a jolly good time" and their version of "There's no business like show business". Egg can play the whimsical card quite nicely, thank you very much!

[at least 100 dead]

And I think The Civil Surface has a more than swell reputation with the listeners that actually KNOW the album for what it states musically. Sonically it may be different, although I personally agree with Steve that those (admittedly) overloud percussion tracks have become an integral part of this album's expression.



Just finished listening to The Civil Surface for the first time – really good!

One word about the legendary upfront drums: Actually, the mix is a lot more palatable than I expected it to be. Reading various reviews, I apprehended a 40 minute drum solo, but of course that’s not the case at all. Instead, parts of the album sound like you’re standing behind Brooks in the studio/rehearsal room – there’s a very live feel to some of the tracks. Overall, my vote still goes to The Polite Force as their best, but this is far more than just a nice addition.

Egg pretty much rules (even if you’re vegan).

[Phlakaton]

Just finished listening to The Civil Surface for the first time – really good!

One word about the legendary upfront drums: Actually, the mix is a lot more palatable than I expected it to be. Reading various reviews, I apprehended a 40 minute drum solo, but of course that’s not the case at all. Instead, parts of the album sound like you’re standing behind Brooks in the studio/rehearsal room – there’s a very live feel to some of the tracks. Overall, my vote still goes to The Polite Force as their best, but this is far more than just a nice addition.

Egg pretty much rules (even if you’re vegan).

Woo hoo! I got all excited when I saw this thread pop up again. I feel like you do about the drums in the mix - not as bad as people say - and never a problem for me personally because I never thought about the drums being anything but awesome anyway.

[jkelman]

Nice review. Not sure I can agree with the perceived similarities to the Hatfields, however. Most of the compositions of The Civil Surface had been fully realized and arranged several years prior to its recording. For example, Stewart was using Hohner electric piano in Egg by around late '71, so this additional color was there, but not put into the context of an album proper. Sure, since the album wasn't recorded until HatN was fully underway, there are some dots which connect, but the songs weren't changed a heck of a lot from where they stood originally, and obviously that was well before the existence of HatN.

It's truly a shame that Egg didn't get to release a third album right in the thick of their career. Had stuff like "Enneagram" come out in 1972, I think it would have been put into a somewhat different historical context. And I would also suspect the production problems which plague The Civil Surface might not have reared their head. Had they worked out one more album with Deram, would Robin Black have still been at the controls? Surely the sound he and producer Neil Slaven had attained for Egg on The Polite Force was fairly remarkable and I think has aged quite well. Whereas when Dave Ruffell and John Purdy took over engineering for the Virgin album, Egg tried to produce themselves. They are credited with the same on the debut, which sounded very good but perhaps the engineers (Roy Thomas Baker, Peter Gallen) made the difference? On CS the result is one of the biggest sonic misses of its day. An organ trio where the drums are the lead instrument is not exactly a sound that does those amazing compositions justice. As someone generally disinterested in modern "remixing" of vintage recordings, I must say that this album would be a prime candidate for such an endeavor.
All true, perhaps; my point being, however, that I don't think this album would have sounded the same had it been recorded when Egg were a going concern. I feel the spirit of Hatfield looming, especially in Stewart's playing, which had come a long way in the intervening couple years. And that's why, to me, it's legitimate to draw comparisons. If they'd recorded it right after their second record, with Stewart playing as he was, it would have sounded very, very different, I suspect.

[100423]

Woo hoo! I got all excited when I saw this thread pop up again. I feel like you do about the drums in the mix - not as bad as people say - and never a problem for me personally because I never thought about the drums being anything but awesome anyway.

I definitely don't mind the drums being up front. I like some of the 'imperfections' of mixing back then. It seems that a lot of music these days loses it sense of 'dangerousness' because everything is preciously mixed perfectly to a specific volume and place.

[Pr33t]

All true, perhaps; my point being, however, that I don't think this album would have sounded the same had it been recorded when Egg were a going concern. I feel the spirit of Hatfield looming, especially in Stewart's playing, which had come a long way in the intervening couple years. And that's why, to me, it's legitimate to draw comparisons. If they'd recorded it right after their second record, with Stewart playing as he was, it would have sounded very, very different, I suspect.

Many of the pieces that ended up on The Civil Surface were also played and developed during the brief time of The Ottawa Music Co., so they would have gone through further changes from whatever form they were in before Egg disbanded.

[alanterrill]

True. They were one of few from the early bunch of British progressive acts that had my out-experimental music-theory trained bandmates sit up and listen back in the 90s during my years at university. With the usual suspects (except for KC, VdGG and some Yes and GGiant) they would mostly go "meh", but with Wyatt/Softs (up 'til and including Fourth), Magma and Egg they would take notice. I dunno, I suppose it had something to do with the apparent formality of these bands' artistic approach to their craft. The keysman in my band was completely floored by "Long Piece no. 3", immediately drawing the frequent parallell to Stravinsky etc. But it really gets going already on "A Visit to Newport Hospital"; those sludgy opening chords with that saggy yet precise drum pattern, drifting into composed abstraction and the oddest singalong tune - this was quite obviously something else altogether. I still think this is one of the most fascinating kickoffs to any rock album that I know.

You can imagine the guy's reaction on first hearing early Univers Zero! |)
This is great to hear -that any students of the 90's were listening to any of this stuff let alone being impressed with the likes of Egg, Softs and VDGG. I was at Uni when all this stuff was still happening, (well a bit later than Egg but Hatfield were still gigging) , and yet there was only one guy in my year I could hold a conversation about music with and although he was aware of Soft Machine he really liked more basic rock. To have a conversation about Egg or VDGG would have been wonderful and I was living in London in 1973!

[chalkpie]

Civil is getting the spin on the commute tomorrow - I don't ever recall the drums being a problem before reading about it here. Maybe you guys just ruined it for me :)

[Steve F.]

^ ^

Blame Jeff!

:lol

[chalkpie]

^ ^

Blame Jeff!

:lol

I already did!

[JeffCarney]

Heh. It wasn't until this thread that I knew everybody didn't think the drums were mixed loud on this album. :)

[Romerovm]

Damn you all for speaking highly of The Metronomical Society, I need it now. The only Egg missing in my recipe ;-)

I must be the only one here, but this album didn't do anything for me. I remember the sound was pretty awful as well.

[NogbadTheBad]

The sound quality is a major issue for me on that one as well, I do still enjoy it but have to get my head in the right place.

[Scrotum Scissor]

This is great to hear -that any students of the 90's were listening to any of this stuff let alone being impressed with the likes of Egg, Softs and VDGG.

What's particularly surprising, I'd say, is that we were two or three groups of freaky people in Bergen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen) whose paths would eventually cross mostly BECAUSE we had discovered the wonders of 60s and 70s "alternative" or "underground" rock of various sorts. Of course, Bergen later became a hotbed for creative musics in Norway, but back then things were initially very dry and dire. These WERE the years of "vinyl decay", however, consequently old-timers would sell off their collections and the rather moderate size of the location (Bergen, that is) would ensure that LPs were available and obtainable much cheaper than the level of prices you'd see on the international collector's market. Still, the "circuit" hardly consisted of more than 15-20 people at the most - some of whom were folks like John Hegre (Jazkamer and Kaptein Kaliber, has also played with Merzbow, Lasse Marhaug a.o.) and Jørgen Træen (aka Sir Duperman, producer of countless substantial Norwegian artists in the ensuing days, amongst them Jaga Jazzist).

[Phlakaton]

What's particularly surprising, I'd say, is that we were two or three groups of freaky people in Bergen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen) whose paths would eventually cross mostly BECAUSE we had discovered the wonders of 60s and 70s "alternative" or "underground" rock of various sorts. Of course, Bergen later became a hotbed for creative musics in Norway, but back then things were initially very dry and dire. These WERE the years of "vinyl decay", however, consequently old-timers would sell off their collections and the rather moderate size of the location (Bergen, that is) would ensure that LPs were available and obtainable much cheaper than the level of prices you'd see on the international collector's market. Still, the "circuit" hardly consisted of more than 15-20 people at the most - some of whom were folks like John Hegre (Jazkamer and Kaptein Kaliber, has also played with Merzbow, Lasse Marhaug a.o.) and Jørgen Træen (aka Sir Duperman, producer of countless substantial Norwegian artists in the ensuing days, amongst them Jaga Jazzist).

I graduated from high school in 1992 - and my friends and I were into Soft Machine a ton at that time. We got our major start into all the related music from Pink Floyd though - and Soft Machine was from being associated with them at places like the UFO and that whole scene. I heard about Egg from being introduced to Hatfield and National Health around 1993 - first year of college... man... those were some friggin fantastic days discovering all this stuff. I've had very few years like those since. Good times. The Muffins was a total gamble based on Steve's recommendation in the Wayside mailer... that Muffins description was perfect and when I got that Open City disc I dont think I stopped playing it for a month.

Thanks Steve!

[Scrotum Scissor]

first year of college... man... those were some friggin fantastic days discovering all this stuff. I've had very few years like those since. Good times. The Muffins was a total gamble based on Steve's recommendation in the Wayside mailer... that Muffins description was perfect and when I got that Open City disc I dont think I stopped playing it for a month.

Thanks Steve!

After I moved to CDs in '94 (yup, I stuck to vinyls for a *long* while), Steve F. became a saving grace of discovery. There were a few "retro" outlets by which to contemplate the old "prog" itch (notably Norway's very own, contemporary Colours label who released Thule, Landberk, Änglagård, Anekdoten, Smell of Incense and more), but with the CD medium and Wayside in particular I soon realized the living daylight of actually ongoing progressive rock-and-beyond music in the tradition of 70s virtues more than 70s sound. Revelation is the word. I had U Totem played me by a guy I met when doing my national service back in '94, and that was essentially the paradigmatic point of my "new awakening". Up until then, the "prog" thing was an escapist nostalgia phenomenon (seeing how I never actually experienced much of the 70s) - but from now... Oh boy.

[Steve F.]

The Muffins was a total gamble based on Steve's recommendation in the Wayside mailer... that Muffins description was perfect and when I got that Open City disc I dont think I stopped playing it for a month.

Thanks Steve!

(Big Happy Grin)

You're very welcome!

[interbellum]

Fans of Egg might be interested in Frank Wyatt's Pedal Giant Animals-project (http://pedalgiantanimals.org/). He has written a piece with Dave Stewart and Egg in mind, which will feature Ron Riddle on drums.

Those who are a member of Frank's Crafty Hands Studio (http://craftyhands.net/my-membership-options-page/) can already listen to a demo-version (and a whole lot more...).

[Phlakaton]

Fans of Egg might be interested in Frank Wyatt's Pedal Giant Animals-project (http://pedalgiantanimals.org/). He has written a piece with Dave Stewart and Egg in mind, which will feature Ron Riddle on drums.

Those who are a member of Frank's Crafty Hands Studio (http://craftyhands.net/my-membership-options-page/) can already listen to a demo-version (and a whole lot more...).

I registered... but having trouble sniffin out the song you mentioned on the site. I'm curious as hell now! lol

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

They are very raw & very excellent. Really complex stuff.

what he^^^ said

People tend to knock Egg down a notch, but I really think that Egg is on par with Stewarts 2 subsequent bands

[Enid]

They are excellent! Love all 3 studio albums. A very unique band and especially when being in the mood for them...as they hit the spot and take you somewhere else. I like that about Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom and Egg transcend into the same orbit actually because they make me feel as if I'm taking a journey with Avant-Garde travel guides. They tell a story with their music and they are reminiscent of Zappa sometimes...but still hold their own uniqueness throughout which is musically internal.

[Werbinox]

All three discs are essential! If you like one, you will like (or will learn to like) all 3!

[interbellum]

I registered... but having trouble sniffin out the song you mentioned on the site. I'm curious as hell now! lol

It's in the video "Z" update 7-01-2015 from The Zeitgeist Project-page in the Backstage-section.

[TheH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3645138921&feature=iv&src_vid=x3uoeTtGYQA&v=wp7DdkzJotk

[arabicadabra]

Since getting The Polite Force from this thread a few months ago, I can only play it TWICE at a time - one time through doesn't satisfy. For me, it's something in the composition....

[wakajazz]

Well this thread just cost me $50+. Not sure why Egg was missing from my collection. Oversight corrected.
WJ

[Phlakaton]

Well this thread just cost me $50+. Not sure why Egg was missing from my collection. Oversight corrected.
WJ

Well done sir. Best $50 anyone can spend. Ok... maybe just us here. :)