Genesis "new stereo mixes"

[JJ88]

It's not even that they've been dripping tracks on lots of releases; the Archive boxes was the only time they've really put any of them out.

The Rainbow 1973 show (which is great) only came out in full in that live remix box, and even then, only on the DVD, I think.

There's a terrific double boot CD of the complete BBC sessions from the early 70s. I'd happily shell out for an official release though.

I heard that one of them vetoed that release but apparently one of the sessions wasn't in great sound quality at the time...I think maybe the 'Harold The Barrel'/'Harlequin' one. The versions I've heard are all release quality.

[aith01]

And I agree with everyone dissing the Nick Davis stereo remixes. Just awful. My ears start to hurt just when thinking about those abominations.

Abominations? Really now?

I get that some people don't like them -- and I even get why they don't -- but this is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Progatron]

I heard that one of them vetoed that release but apparently one of the sessions wasn't in great sound quality at the time...I think maybe the 'Harold The Barrel'/'Harlequin' one. The versions I've heard are all release quality.

Yep, I've never had an issue with the sound quality of these. They aren't perfect, of course, but perfectly acceptable - I've heard worse released as bonus tracks on official albums by other bands.

I think a nice 2-disc The Complete BBC Sessions set, maybe with some new throwback artwork from Paul Whitehead, and a nice thick booklet with band reminiscings, photos from the period, etc. would be fantastic. Of course, that would never happen. We'd end up getting an expurgated version with missing tracks, a baffling Nick Davis remix and that hideous modern logo (the lowercase one with the backwards 'e'). Oh, and The Living Years as a bonus track.

[JJ88]

One benefit with the BBC recordings is that multi-tracks probably don't exist, so they can't tinker about with them.

[squonkduke]

This is the vetoed BBC Sessions. Some promo copies eventually slipped away...

twr101_37-BBC Recordings promo.jpg

[JJ88]

^Thanks. I'd never seen that before, didn't realise it got as far as the promo stage. The track selection isn't chronological. I note one missing track- a version of 'The Fountain Of Salmacis', probably from that 1972 studio session (the one with the rarely played 'Harold The Barrel' and 'Harlequin') which was 'lost' at one point but is not now. I remember the re-broadcast of that session on 6Music in 2008.

I think it would have sold pretty well; bear in mind the first Archive box actually made the UK Top 40, a time when boxed sets seldom charted. By contrast the second one barely registered.

[squonkduke]

^Thanks. I'd never seen that before, didn't realise it got as far as the promo stage. The track selection isn't chronological. I note one missing track- a version of 'The Fountain Of Salmacis', probably from that 1972 studio session (the one with the rarely played 'Harold The Barrel' and 'Harlequin') which was 'lost' at one point but is not now. I remember the re-broadcast of that session on 6Music in 2008.

I think it would have sold pretty well; bear in mind the first Archive box actually made the UK Top 40, a time when boxed sets seldom charted. By contrast the second one barely registered.

Yes, everything you're saying is just what i know.
The set starts with the only live performance in front of an actual audience, then it goes chronologically except the last 2 studio sessions which are swapped, probably because the 9th jan 1972 recording was then widely available in very poor sound quality, and missing The Fountain Of Salmacis. That was also ultimately the reason Tony Banks vetoed the commercial release. Virgin simply copied that session from existing bootlegs.
Anyway, both Genesis members and Virgin people were evidently not aware that the BBC had already found the 9th jan 1972 session recording as far as 1995, in fact a DAT clone of the pre-broadcast reel-to-reel tape does indeed exist, dating back from that very period, and it sounds better than the off-air 2008 BBC6 broadcast.

[JJ88]

^The session after that one- the only one they did in front of an audience- I think is around in stereo but I've only heard the mono myself. The mono isn't too great, IMHO. Wonder which was used here.

[squonkduke]

^The session after that one- the only one they did in front of an audience- I think is around in stereo but I've only heard the mono myself. The mono isn't too great, IMHO. Wonder which was used here.

I'll have to check out to be 100% sure, but i remember that session has been recorded in mono originally, and as such it is on the BBC Recordings promo discs.

[Ted]

The Rainbow 1973 show (which is great) only came out in full in that live remix box, and even then, only on the DVD, I think.

There is a CD in addition to the DVD of the Rainbow 1973 show in the Live box - a couple of songs are different in each of them.

[happytheman]

This is the vetoed BBC Sessions. Some promo copies eventually slipped away...

twr101_37-BBC Recordings promo.jpg

I have two different BBC recordings.. been a while since I listened to either but I seem to recall the sound was fine on both
Genesis disc 1.jpgBBC 72.jpg

[JJ88]

There is a CD in addition to the DVD of the Rainbow 1973 show in the Live box - a couple of songs are different in each of them.

I know there was a CD but I think the DVD was the only release of what would have been the full show- the tracks not on the CD were offered as free downloads on their site, or something.

Can anyone confirm whether this version of the Rainbow show had Gabriel's Archive 1967-75 overdubs on 'Supper's Ready'?

[LeFrog]

I know there was a CD but I think the DVD was the only release of what would have been the full show- the tracks not on the CD were offered as free downloads on their site, or something.

Can anyone confirm whether this version of the Rainbow show had Gabriel's Archive 1967-75 overdubs on 'Supper's Ready'?

Yes, the DVD has the full show, Watcher and Musical Box were removed from the CD for space reasons.
Supper's Ready still has Peter's vocal overdubs but less of them compared to the Archive box set, at least that's what was said on the old Genesis forum as I haven't done the comparison myself.

[Tangram]

For me, it would be a complete Trick show. Not sure which one, there are several really good ones - ideally one we've never heard. Likewise with Wind And Wuthering and ATTWT, both great tours. I'd also love a '72, pre-Foxtrot show.

There's a terrific double boot CD of the complete BBC sessions from the early 70s. I'd happily shell out for an official release though.

Count me in as another who thought Genesis never quite got it right. I too would shell out some good cash for what you listed above.

As far as DER remasters are concerned, I started with the ATTW3 album because I had bought 3 copies on vinyl and thought that there was a problem like when you got album from the cheap record clubs, before I realized that while I really like the songs (don't judge) the mix just wasn't that great. Well I hate the DER version worse, so stuck with the vinyls and didn't replace the all the other cds. The only other one I got was the 3 Sides Live because the 4th side was now live also. My Christmas present to myself this year was the dvd/cd version of ATOTT because I wanted the live PG tracks on the video. Of course its not on a cd.

I think Genesis management should ring up Pink Floyd's management to get a hold of the guys who did their boxes. They got live tracks from the late 60's and early 70's that sound better than I could have imagined. Atom Heart Mother, in several different configurations is incredible. Who would have thought The Man and The Journey could sound so good.

Or get Alan Parsons. He's probably not doing much these days. I have the box set of Tales, which comes with a straight remaster, and a version were he remixed, remastered and threw in a couple of new parts too. Its up to you to decide what you like better.

[JJ88]

^You know what, I believe that Genesis and Floyd now have the same management! (Tony Smith)

The original Genesis CDs were well mastered. But yes to have a team like that involved on Genesis' original mixes would be great. Have to say that the most important catalogues in progressive rock for me are indeed Pink Floyd and Genesis.

Yes, the DVD has the full show, Watcher and Musical Box were removed from the CD for space reasons.
Supper's Ready still has Peter's vocal overdubs but less of them compared to the Archive box set, at least that's what was said on the old Genesis forum as I haven't done the comparison myself.

Thanks. From memory it was mainly the earlier sections of the track that he overdubbed in the 90s. Had he not done any of that I'd listen to the box more regularly, as it delivers pretty much all of what a Gabriel-era fan would want, in terms of a 'companion' to the albums. (Bearing in mind things like The Jackson Tapes weren't around at that point.)

Something else they haven't released is the 1972 version of 'Supper's Ready' which didn't make the original live album. In that live box they bizarrely chose to add random Lamb Lies Down... songs from the Shrine 1975 concert.

[jcarr73729]

Something else they haven't released is the 1972 version of 'Supper's Ready' which didn't make the original live album. In that live box they bizarrely chose to add random Lamb Lies Down... songs from the Shrine 1975 concert.

I would not have released it either, or certainly not the version that has circulated as the "best" audio quality in trading/torrent groups.
For me, the mix is all over the place, and that stereo mix is the only version that survives, I believe.

[LeFrog]

I'm not really a bootleg person because I need to have a good sound (multitrack or excellent soundboard), but after 20 years of being a Genesis fan, I felt I knew the band's catalogue backwards and took a dive into the world of bootlegs.

What became obvious to me is that none of the official live albums truly gives an accurate picture of a Genesis gig because they're either incomplete or compiled from different tours, none of them have the full setlist in order (except for Live Over Europe) and the between-song banter is always removed.

There is at least one excellent sounding bootleg for every tour from Foxtrot onward (with the surprising exception of the Mama tour for which there is no complete show of excellent quality for some reason), and in many cases, those bootlegs originate from soundboards that belong to the band, or the band owns multitrack recordings which have never been released officially in full (only a few songs on the Archive boxsets hint at what they own, and they also have some multitracks that are yet to be heard by the public).

So, yes, I would pay for official live releases that would sound at least as good or better than the bootlegs I have, along with a nice packaging, even if those are the same gigs than the ones I already have. The band are definitely sitting on enough good quality sources to do that, but are not interested. I believe they consider that the market for this kind of thing isn't big enough and they may have a point, but it does seem like a missed oppportunity, especially when you see so many bands doing it right who don't even have as much unreleased live material as Genesis seem to have.

[JJ88]

I would not have released it either, or certainly not the version that has circulated as the "best" audio quality in trading/torrent groups.
For me, the mix is all over the place, and that stereo mix is the only version that survives, I believe.

I'm sure I read that they found it with the other multi-tracks of the Live album, when preparing the 5.1 mix. The excuse given was something like, there are already two versions of it in the box.

[zorknapp]

^You know what, I believe that Genesis and Floyd now have the same management! (Tony Smith)

Tony Smith only manages Nick Mason, not PF as a whole.

Mike

[LeFrog]

I'm sure I read that they found it with the other multi-tracks of the Live album, when preparing the 5.1 mix. The excuse given was something like, there are already two versions of it in the box.

I can't remember if they actually found the multitrack for the 1972 version of Supper's Ready, but what is available is the version that was almost released on the Genesis Live album before they decided they didn't want it to be a 3-sided album including the bulk of their latest studio album. If that version was deemed worthy of release back then, it can't be that bad, although I believe this is the version some of you consider is not worth releasing.

[JJ88]

If the master of that mix exists I'd be fine with that; the version which circulates is only from the acetate, I think.

[Top Cat]

Tony Smith only manages Nick Mason, not PF as a whole.

Mike

Mike, I read your comment on Facebook the other day, that TabletopGenesis podcast will be tackling The Lamb Lies Down...this should be a good one!!!!

[squonkduke]

Supper's Ready from the TM Productions edition of the full 'Genesis Live' 2LP acetate is not so bad...

[Progatron]

In that live box they bizarrely chose to add random Lamb Lies Down... songs from the Shrine 1975 concert.

Ugh. Yet another example of the hodgepodge nature of their releases. The aforementioned Floyd boxes are indeed excellent, and I would kill for Genesis ones of the same quality. For studio albums, I can only drool at the thought of the 70s catalogue being released like the Tull boxes over the last several years. New mixing wouldn't even be necessary: a blu-ray in each set could contain the original mixes, the '94 DE remasters, and the 2007 Davis remixes. And, like, the Tull boxes, complete tracks from the period. No head-scratching decisions from one band member or another who doesn't like one of the old b-sides or thinks something should be changed.

after 20 years of being a Genesis fan, I felt I knew the band's catalogue backwards and took a dive into the world of bootlegs.

What became obvious to me is that none of the official live albums truly gives an accurate picture of a Genesis gig because they're either incomplete or compiled from different tours, none of them have the full setlist in order (except for Live Over Europe) and the between-song banter is always removed.

I was a live show collector for many years, and you are absolutely correct. The live albums are all good performances, but are 100% not an accurate picture of a Genesis gig.

So, yes, I would pay for official live releases that would sound at least as good or better than the bootlegs I have, along with a nice packaging, even if those are the same gigs than the ones I already have. The band are definitely sitting on enough good quality sources to do that, but are not interested. I believe they consider that the market for this kind of thing isn't big enough and they may have a point, but it does seem like a missed oppportunity, especially when you see so many bands doing it right who don't even have as much unreleased live material as Genesis seem to have.

Apart from Hackett, they are very out of touch with what the fans truly want. There was an interview with Mike & Phil from a few years back, and one of the questions was something like: "Are you aware of the resurgence of interest in 70s bands like Zeppelin, Floyd, and yourselves?" and both of them said "Nnnnoooo... I've never heard that." Then Phil said "I know there's a lot of interest in the 1980s stuff now though."

I understand that the kind of (proper) archival releases we are imagining would not be million-sellers, but they would sell enough to make them worth a limited run (once again, like the Tull boxes - which mostly sell out quickly)... and like I said before, the band doesn't even have to do any real work, apart from possibly supplying new photos from their attics and a few new interview quotes. Just give us proper, complete packages that have not been doctored. It can't be that hard. I want to look at my collection of my favourite band and not immediately think of how each set I am looking at missed the mark in one way or another.

[JJ88]

If it was down to me I'd get those Davis stereo mixes off the market ASAP and put the originals out again in newly remastered form. The other thing which would be a neat addition to the core catalogue would be a 2-cd set of the non-album tracks, most of which have not been released on CD outside of boxes. (One oddity here is 'Twilight Alehouse' which I don't think has ever been on CD in its original mix!)

Unfortunately I don't get the sense the band is unhappy with these remixes. (Like, for instance, some members of The Stooges did not like Iggy Pop's remix of Raw Power!)

As for the live stuff, put concerts out in limited runs like the Jethro Tull remixes, if need be.