Would Genesis have made it without Gabriel?

[ItalProgRules]

I got all verklempt when Hackett and Phillips worked together.

I just thought it was so cool to hear them play together on a couple tracks on Out of the Tunnel's Mouth.

[Splicer]

I don't understand why Rutherford stopped working with him after he left.

[LeFrog]

I don't understand why Rutherford stopped working with him after he left.

Rutherford's recent memoirs might give you some answers (very interesting read).
But what you say is not entirely true: Rutherford worked with Phillips on his first album The Geese and the Ghost, and Phillips played all the keyboards on Rutherford's own first album Smallcreep's Day.

[-=RTFR666=-]

yup

And 7 pages b y the end of the w-e...

touché

[Rufus]

Rutherford's recent memoirs might give you some answers (very interesting read) and Phillips played all the keyboards on Rutherford's own first album Smallcreep's Day.

Didn't know that Ant played keys on my favourite Genesis solo album! Thanks!

[GuitarGeek]

Rutherford's recent memoirs might give you some answers (very interesting read).
But what you say is not entirely true: Rutherford worked with Phillips on his first album The Geese and the Ghost, and Phillips played all the keyboards on Rutherford's own first album Smallcreep's Day.

I think Ant was asked about the idea of them doing something together again, and I think Ant suggested that they've gone in different directions in what they want to do, so a new collaboration probably wouldn't work as well.

[perpetual strange]

I think Ant was asked about the idea of them doing something together again, and I think Ant suggested that they've gone in different directions in what they want to do, so a new collaboration probably wouldn't work as well.

Yeah, Ant is into acoustic and electronic music, Rutherford into pop. I guess Rutherford went in another direction, Ant seems closer to his roots. I would love a project with Ant, Tony and Steve. But then I'd also love a world without war...

[Trane]

Originally Posted by Trane

yup

And 7 pages b y the end of the w-e...

touché

Well, maybe not... it's definitely not on planning... We should be on page four by now...

[Prog Lives]

You saw how fast the decline was. People only came out to hear Gabriel era songs.

This

[Splicer]

Rutherford's recent memoirs might give you some answers (very interesting read).
But what you say is not entirely true: Rutherford worked with Phillips on his first album The Geese and the Ghost, and Phillips played all the keyboards on Rutherford's own first album Smallcreep's Day.

I should have clarified what I meant. Since Rutherford and Ant were writing partners, why did Rutherford not write with Phillips and bring those ideas to the table?

[GuitarGeek]

I should have clarified what I meant. Since Rutherford and Ant were writing partners, why did Rutherford not write with Phillips and bring those ideas to the table?

How do you know he didn't? We know that the beginning of The Musical Box was a Ant/Mike thing (to the point that Tony has even admitted that Ant should have had a songwriting credit on that one), and there were apparently a number of things they wrote together, some of which ended up being part of the two big pieces on The Geese And The Ghost. So it's quite possible there were a bunch of things the two of them did together, which Mike presented to the band, but only The Musical Box thing escaped veto by the others.

Or, possibly, given that we know that the band has at times "cannibalized" older compositions, there could be another number of things on later records that had their origins in something Mike and Ant worked on together.

[moecurlythanu]

^ iirc, some of those kinds of tracks showed up in Ant's Archive Collection series.

[Scott Bails]

You saw how fast the decline was. People only came out to hear Gabriel era songs.

This

Um...wasn't that a joke?

[jkelman]

Interesting discussion, but I'm a big believer that we're the confluence of our experiences to date, and that things might happen, were things to have played out differently, but it's hard to predict how they would have transpired.

Were the members of Genesis capable enough to have attracted some attention without Gabriel!? Perhaps, but without Gabriel setting the precedent, Ciollins - were he to have emerged as a singer at all - would have been undoubtedly different, given that, for the first two post-Gabriel records, he was doing his level best to sound like Gabriel. How would he have sounded without Gabriel to create the initial context? We'll never know. Plus, shy as he may have been, Gabriel's magical rehearsed song intros, costume changes and overall theatrical antics were also precedent setting. Was the group playing behind him great? Of course. Were they strong writers? Absolutely.

But it was the sum total of all five guys that made early Genesis what it was, and whether or not that group would have made it with a different singer is like asking if pizza would be as good with a sauce that wasn't tomato-based. It sure is possible....but the concept is so different, so foreign, that it is simply a question for which there is no clear answer.

That said, because of all that, my suspicion is no, simply because it was the chemistry of all five together that brought about the early successes (crtiical if not commercially) that led, step by step as changes began to creep in, to the more massive successes the group would ultimately enjoy.

[Jay.Dee]

They actually made it without Gabriel. And most probably they would not have made it, if he had not left.

[revporl]

They actually made it without Gabriel. And most probably they would not have made it, if he had not left.

Yeah that's the most accurate view. The split allowed for both of them to reassess and re-orientate themselves musically in order to keep up with slightly different strands of the musical curve.
If they'd have stayed in the fey Hogweed configuration, the punk rock/New Wave/AOR juggernaut would have made them as relevant to the late 70's as, I dunno, Griffin, and would have finished them completely.

[jkleban]

My 2 cents.... as mentioned, the costumes created the BUZZ about the band, which in hand got them noticed. Back in the day, being a GENESIS fan was in the minority... but us followers were DEEP fans, not many girls went to the concert and I would venture to guess that MANY of the audience here in the states (at least in NYC and north Jersey) were aspiring musicians.

Stands to reason (no matter whose idea it was) that the costumes had a lot to do with getting GEN notices.

Jim

[jkelman]

They actually made it without Gabriel. And most probably they would not have made it, if he had not left.

Yes, but would they have gotten there without having had Gabriel in the band until 1975? Of course they ultimately made it...but it was the inevitable progression of which Gabriel was an important part.

Would they have become the arena-huge pop group,without having gone through the Gabriel years? That's the question that you are evading....

[jkelman]

Yeah that's the most accurate view. The split allowed for both of them to reassess and re-orientate themselves musically in order to keep up with slightly different strands of the musical curve.
If they'd have stayed in the fey Hogweed configuration, the punk rock/New Wave/AOR juggernaut would have made them as relevant to the late 70's as, I dunno, Griffin, and would have finished them completely.

True, but again: where they ended up was inevitable consequence. Even without Gabriel, their early writing would not have reflected the power pop of later years. So saying they did make it without Gabriel doesn't answer the question of would they have achieved what they ultimately did without having had Gabriel, who clearly helped put them on the map' even if not achieve the massive commercial success of later years.

[Jay.Dee]

Would they have become the arena-huge pop group,without having gone through the Gabriel years? That's the question that you are evading....

I am evading it, because it is a pure speculation. I can only tell that their success was built on stripping off everything from their proggy past, which includes any Gabriel influence. And judging by the distance between the solo careers of Collins and Gabriel, and the proximity of Collins' own albums and the output of three-piece Genesis, I am quite confident that Phil would have made it anyway, without anyone from the band.

[Vic2012]

What would have happened to Genesis if Phil Collins left the band altogether and just did his solo career after "In The Air Tonight" became a huge hit? I kinda get the sense that Phil and Genesis had a co-dependancy. One probably wouldn't have made it without the other in the 80s. In the early 80s I couldn't tell the difference between a solo Phil radio hit, or a Genesis radio hit.

[dpt3]

Yeah that's the most accurate view. The split allowed for both of them to reassess and re-orientate themselves musically in order to keep up with slightly different strands of the musical curve.
If they'd have stayed in the fey Hogweed configuration, the punk rock/New Wave/AOR juggernaut would have made them as relevant to the late 70's as, I dunno, Griffin, and would have finished them completely.

Maybe, though I'd say that in many ways they were already re-orienting themselves on the Lamb, which is a very different album from the two that surround it, and in many ways points more in the direction of Gabriel's solo career.