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Thread: Page didn't invent the distorted guitar sound! He didn't play....

  1. #26
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. There's nothing subjective about soulful playing. You either have it or you don't.
    The fact that you don't think EVH's playing is at all soulful tells me that it IS subjective. He definitely did some stuff later in his career that I found pretty uninspiring, but there was plenty on the first few albums that had a spark that went well beyond just technical gimmickry. Most of the time I felt the technique served a greater purpose. If that didn't resonate with you I can see why you'd think it was just wankery.

    And I really don't consider myself a big fan...he would never be listed among my top 10 guitarists.
    <sig out of order>

  2. #27
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    People need to learn the difference between invention and innovation.
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    What is Link Wray, chopped liver?
    People also need to learn the difference between "distortion" and "overdriven"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I thought the first distorted guitar was on Ike Turner's Rocket 88?


    for the record, i understand Dave Davies' point: "You Really Got Me" was written from that riff with square wave intent. I think his case is weak, but I get his gyst.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    You mean either you "hear it" or you don't.
    Nope. It's either there or it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    The fact that you don't think EVH's playing is at all soulful tells me that it IS subjective. He definitely did some stuff later in his career that I found pretty uninspiring, but there was plenty on the first few albums that had a spark that went well beyond just technical gimmickry. Most of the time I felt the technique served a greater purpose. If that didn't resonate with you I can see why you'd think it was just wankery.

    And I really don't consider myself a big fan...he would never be listed among my top 10 guitarists.
    Perhaps, we're defining things differently, then. I never considered "spark" representative of soulfulness. Soulfulness is playing from the heart with genuine feeling that has an emotional connection. Typically, it's rooted in life experiences, which is why so many black artists can bring it home and so few white ones can. Not trying to stereotype, but there's some truth to that.


    Look, I'm not looking to go on and on about this. After all this is a thread about Page and the Kinks. It's been hijacked too much already.

    But, if anyone can post a link of some truly soulful playing by EVH, I would love to hear it.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  4. #29
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Nope. It's either there or it isn't.



    Perhaps, we're defining things differently, then. I never considered "spark" representative of soulfulness. Soulfulness is playing from the heart with genuine feeling that has an emotional connection. Typically, it's rooted in life experiences, which is why so many black artists can bring it home and so few white ones can. Not trying to stereotype, but there's some truth to that.


    Look, I'm not looking to go on and on about this. After all this is a thread about Page and the Kinks. It's been hijacked too much already.

    But, if anyone can post a link of some truly soulful playing by EVH, I would love to hear it.
    I get it, you don' t like Ed....., but that doesn't mean he's "soulless" to millions of others!
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  5. #30
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post

    Perhaps, we're defining things differently, then. I never considered "spark" representative of soulfulness. Soulfulness is playing from the heart with genuine feeling that has an emotional connection. Typically, it's rooted in life experiences, which is why so many black artists can bring it home and so few white ones can. Not trying to stereotype, but there's some truth to that.
    Btw, that paragraph is insane.
    Last edited by nosebone; 07-11-2014 at 09:22 PM.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    I get it, you don' t like Ed....., but that doesn't mean he's "soulless" to millions of others!
    I saw VH twice in their heyday. I used to love them. It has nothing to do with whether or not I think EVH has any soul in his playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Btw, that paragraph is insane.
    That's totally subjective. You clearly don't get it. So, I won't waste any more of this thread debating you.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  7. #32
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    The Beatles invented feedback

  8. #33
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    Regarding Eddie Van Halen: He was certainly a blues based, electric guitarist. To me he is the "last great classic rock, electric guitarist." To me his blues foundation is what separates him from all the twiddly-widdly, 80s, shreddy boys. Yeah he spawned the whole whammy-bar craze but if you listen to his solos (and early VH in general) the music is definitely blues, and boogie based. It was fast and furious but it was Rock & Roll. It wasn't Thrash or hair metal. It was just great, furious, guitar rock.

  9. #34
    Member davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    What is Link Wray, chopped liver?
    thank you! I was gonna mention him.

    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Yeah, and Al Gore invented the Internet.
    more importantly, he used it to invent global warming, but he doesn't even know what a guitar is.
    Last edited by davis; 07-11-2014 at 11:06 PM.

  10. #35

  11. #36
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. There's nothing subjective about soulful playing. You either have it or you don't.
    How you perceive it IS subjective. It's all in the ear of the behearer. If you think it's soulful, then it is... to you. And vice versa. Soulfulness can be simulated too. There are licks/clichés that when phrased a certain way are perceived to be soulful to many people. That's how Kenny G's whole shtick comes off to me. But who am I to say that he's not playing from the heart? There's no gauge to measure something like that. I know you wanted to abandon this little topic hijack, but I just felt compelled to put my $.02 in on that matter.
    Last edited by No Pride; 07-12-2014 at 01:19 PM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    People also need to learn the difference between "distortion" and "overdriven"
    "Overdrive" is a term to describe light distortion; as in pushing the power section of a tube amplifier to the point where it's "breaking up." I don't remember anyone making that distinction 30 years ago, but it's common lingo now; if you want semi-dirt, it's "overdrive," but if you want a thick, saturated sound (usually generated by the preamp section of a guitar amplifier), it's "distortion." Obviously, there are stomp boxes intended for one or the other and a fair share that can do both.

  13. #38
    Member Jay G's Avatar
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    While Eddie has talked about being a huge fan of Holdsworth he has noted in thousands of interviews his primary influence was always Eric Clapton whether you hear it or not. He was so much a fan of EC that VH basically performed at least 1 Clapton based song on ever single tour up until 1984. Not only that but I saw at least 2 tours with Hagar in which VH covered Crossroads live.

  14. #39
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    "Overdrive" is a term to describe light distortion; as in pushing the power section of a tube amplifier to the point where it's "breaking up." I don't remember anyone making that distinction 30 years ago, but it's common lingo now; if you want semi-dirt, it's "overdrive," but if you want a thick, saturated sound (usually generated by the preamp section of a guitar amplifier), it's "distortion." Obviously, there are stomp boxes intended for one or the other and a fair share that can do both.
    The way I understand it is "Overdrive" is pushing the amplifier section with the pre-amp beyond its 0db threshold, clipping off the peaks of a sinewave and creating squares. This is in the actual signal.

    "Distortion" is the audio squarewaves generated by speaker break-up which is different than "Fuzz", which emulates a torn speaker

    Sonically, they are all different so pedals/stomp-boxes are designed for players to mimic each

  15. #40
    Member Mikhael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    The way I understand it is "Overdrive" is pushing the amplifier section with the pre-amp beyond its 0db threshold, clipping off the peaks of a sinewave and creating squares. This is in the actual signal.

    "Distortion" is the audio squarewaves generated by speaker break-up which is different than "Fuzz", which emulates a torn speaker

    Sonically, they are all different so pedals/stomp-boxes are designed for players to mimic each
    Not really, though one might define them as such. "Distortion" is what ALL of those are; literally, the addition of harmonics to the fundamental frequency. Generally, these terms relate to the amount of added harmonics. Thus, "overdrive" is slightly distorted, "fuzz" is so distorted it's close to a square wave.
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  16. #41
    Page didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
    Not really, though one might define them as such. "Distortion" is what ALL of those are; literally, the addition of harmonics to the fundamental frequency. Generally, these terms relate to the amount of added harmonics. Thus, "overdrive" is slightly distorted, "fuzz" is so distorted it's close to a square wave.
    Yeah, that's always been my impression. Distortion is a catch all word for all of those things. Overdrive describes, for instance, Pete Townshend's power chord guitar tone on something like Won't Get Fooled Again. Fuzz is what Keith is using on the verses of (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction.

  18. #43
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    Nobody's mentioned Dick Dale(distortion, power chords)or Olly Halsall(tapping in the mid-60s; pretty sure Holdsworth learnedit from him)...

  19. #44
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calabasas_Trafalgar View Post
    Nobody's mentioned Dick Dale(distortion, power chords)or Olly Halsall(tapping in the mid-60s; pretty sure Holdsworth learnedit from him)...
    * Dick Dale, active since about 1962
    * Ollie Halsall, active 1964-1992

    Link Wray was 1958, Ike Turner 1951

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Calabasas_Trafalgar View Post
    Nobody's mentioned Dick Dale(distortion, power chords)or Olly Halsall(tapping in the mid-60s; pretty sure Holdsworth learnedit from him)...
    Which tracks did Dick Dale use distortion? Everything I've heard from him, he uses a classic, clean Fender kinda tone, albeit with gobs of reverb.

    And exactly where did Ollie Halsall use tapping in the mid 60's? Earliest example I know of a rock guitarist using tapping is some live recordings of Hendrix from around 68 or so. I believe jazz guitarist Jimmy Webster was doing fingerboard tapping back in the 50's. It was Webster who developed Gretsch's stereo guitar system, which sent the bass and treble guitar strings through two separate amps (similar to what Emmett Chapman would do with the Stick a couple decades later.

  21. #46
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    Why has no one mentioned Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio's recording of "Train Kept A-Rollin'" in 1956? That's often cited as one of the first intentional uses of guitar distortion, not to mention one of the most influential recordings of the rock era.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Why has no one mentioned Johnny Burnette and the Rock and Roll Trio's recording of "Train Kept A-Rollin'" in 1956? That's often cited as one of the first intentional uses of guitar distortion, not to mention one of the most influential recordings of the rock era.
    Why not mention it? Because before it could be brought up, Rocket 88, which predates it by several years, was mentioned. But yeah, that's a famous story. Apparently, Paul Burlison dropped his guitar amp after the strap broke, and a tube got knocked loose. When he plugged it in, he got that distorted tone there. Apparently, this happened sometime before the session, but when their producer said he wanted a "raunchy" guitar tone or whatever, Paul said, "let me try something", and pulled the tube half way out of it's socket, as had happened when he dropped the amp, and everyone loved it.

    BTW, I also recall reading that in the early 60's, in Nashville, I think it was, there was one studio, where one of the channels on the soundboard malfunctioned and caused extreme distortion. It sounded terrible on everything, except guitar. So everyone in town wanted to record in their studio, because that was the only place you could get that guitar tone. Eventually, the channel died altogether, which led to some people claiming the studio owners were "holding out", wanting to use it only on their own sessions or whatever. Eventually, one of the guys who worked at the studio came up with a circuit that emulated the tone, which he then made the mistake of selling to Gibson for next to nothing, who put it out on as the Maestro fuzztone, which I think was the first effects pedal. It's the Maestro you hear Keith using on (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, and I believe also Steve Howe has been known to use one, too.

  23. #48
    Profondo Giallo Crystal Plumage's Avatar
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    Have any of you seen "The Joy of the Guitar Riff"? Yesterday @ BBC4.
    http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-ra...riff-tv-review
    It will probably pop up on YT soon.
    Here's a promo:

    Davies talking about his distortion, and there's Chuck Berry, Link Wray, Robert Fripp (yay!) and even Nile Rodgers riffing along.
    I liked it.
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