"Their early stuff put me off"

[klothos]

Wow. I consider Lucky Man to be the most important song ELP ever recorded.

As far as the public eye is concerned (which includes the majority of society who arent interested in Prog), I totally agree

[bob_32_116]

"Lucky Man" is probably the song that epitomises, more than any other, what I dislike about ELP.

[Trane]

Beatles / Radiohead / U2

Yup, these are three of the most obvious bands that I can think of

Didn't rate Simple Minds, Human League & Heaven 17 until their third or fourth albums!!!

Don't know of H17, but I know someday, I will have to investigate early Human League and Ultravox, becauseI may be in for a surprise, like I was for another electro-pop/synth/new wave band called Spilt Enz...

In all four cases, I can't hate their early stuff worse than their "classic period" stuff..

[spacefreak]

someday, I will have to investigate early Human League and Ultravox,

Yes, you 'll be positively surprised after checking their debut albums and EPs. And add Tubeway Army to that list...

[klothos]

Wow. I consider Lucky Man to be the most important song ELP ever recorded.

As far as the public eye is concerned (which includes the majority of society who arent interested in Prog), I totally agree

"Lucky Man" is probably the song that epitomises, more than any other, what I dislike about ELP.

popularity and radio-play? or just the composition of the song?

[cavgator]

Take away the free improv section of "Moonchild", and it's not the same record at all. "Prog fans" need to understand the ways and creeds of broader/other/wider expressions, and the craft of improvisation has traditionally been a token to both musicianship and imagination - implying that there's not more "objective valeur" to a six-chord "song" progression (that would be "Moonchild") than to nine and a half minutes of trying to find one's path ahead. Granted KC were far less interesting improvisors at this point than they would become later (and a head or two under the likes of Soft Machine), they were still entitled to venture there - even on a studio album, IMO.

I like the debut ELP, except for the bloody drum solo; now there's a kind of "prog exhibitionist" pseudo-improv that I could never stomach, no matter how technically able. Throwaway, for my money.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Tank takes 6:40 of time, and Palmer's drum solo was 1:10 of the song, which is 17% of the total song. Moonchild, however, was 12:15 in length, of which 9:54 (79%) was ambient noodling. Anxiously waiting for them to return to the "song," only to listen to it fizzle out.

I think I understand textures, ambience and improvisation rather well. For me, this is noodling. Palmer's minute long drum solo is at least entertaining, rather than boring like most drum solos. As for Lucky Man (from another post), that was an add-on, true, but it was pleasing, a welcome respite from the energy of the rest of the album, and a pioneering use of the Moog...

Amazing how the very mention of ELP brings the daggers out in some...

[mogrooves]

Sure, the random acoustic country bit in the middle was seriously ill-advised....

My point, concisely.

As for Lucky Man (from another post), that was an add-on, true, but it was pleasing, a welcome respite from the energy of the rest of the album....

An anticlimax, for me.

Amazing how the very mention of ELP brings the daggers out in some...

"Daggers"? Really? Perhaps you missed this:

My fave of their albums.....

[cavgator]

"Daggers"? Really? Perhaps you missed this:

Well, Mo, considering on another thread, the debut was the only album you liked by them, I suppose I got mixed signals...

[quote=mogrooves]

ELP
ELO
Comus

[zombywoof]

I consider Lucky Man to be the most important song ELP ever recorded.

Well sure it is, just like "Aqualung" was the most important song Tull ever recorded. It kept them going, financially, to produce better works.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Sorry but I have to disagree. Tank takes 6:40 of time, and Palmer's drum solo was 1:10 of the song, which is 17% of the total song. Moonchild, however, was 12:15 in length, of which 9:54 (79%) was ambient noodling. Anxiously waiting for them to return to the "song," only to listen to it fizzle out.

I think I understand textures, ambience and improvisation rather well. For me, this is noodling.

That's fair. It'll always come down to whether or not an improv "works" for you or not. To me, the "Moonchild" improvs (the vibes followed by the handdrums/guitar/bells) definitely enhance the tune into something completely different, and positively so I'd say.

BTW, there was a French trio called Pataphonie whose first album contains only two lengthy, almost silent pieces, both sounding like a strange continuation of the "Moonchild" improv parts - until relistens prove one third of it to be very carefully arranged textures. Taking in that album actually rendered the "Moonchild" piece more enjoyable than to begin with.

[JJ88]

Can't think of anyone whose later work I prefer! Leonard Cohen, maybe. 'I'm Your Man' is a masterpiece, 'The Future' isn't far behind.

I like the debut ELP, except for the bloody drum solo; now there's a kind of "prog exhibitionist" pseudo-improv that I could never stomach, no matter how technically able. Throwaway, for my money.

I'd agree, and I'm not mad about all the rambling organ stuff on 'The Three Fates' either- the last part with the ensemble playing is very good, but individual showboating I can never be doing with. This was a debut album and they were obviously short on material then, though.

'Moonchild' has grown on me over the years...particularly after thinking there was something 'wrong' about that chopped-down one on Steven Wilson's version!

[cavgator]

That's fair. It'll always come down to whether or not an improv "works" for you or not. To me, the "Moonchild" improvs (the vibes followed by the handdrums/guitar/bells) definitely enhance the tune into something completely different, and positively so I'd say.

BTW, there was a French trio called Pataphonie whose first album contains only two lengthy, almost silent pieces, both sounding like a strange continuation of the "Moonchild" improv parts - until relistens prove one third of it to be very carefully arranged textures. Taking in that album actually rendered the "Moonchild" piece more enjoyable than to begin with.

Agree. When i think of King Crimson's improvs, however, I think of Fracture and Starless and Bible Black, Asbury Park and other great improvs on The Great Deceiver. I actually categorize Moonchild as ambient music as a genre. it fits well with Fripp and Eno's Equatorial Stars and other ambient works, which is fine for me. When I was 14, however, all I could say was WTF?!?

[Watanabe]

fracture is composed.

[Scrotum Scissor]

fracture is composed.

Well, rather "arranged" - initially as a guitar-only exercise, IIRC. My fave KC tune overall.

[mogrooves]

[QUOTE=cavgator;265556]Well, Mo, considering on another thread, the debut was the only album you liked by them, I suppose I got mixed signals...

ELP
ELO
Comus

I guess "mixed signals" is appropriate given...

s/t: A
Tarkus: A-
Pictures....: C
Trilogy: B-
BSS: B

....but I'd insist that "daggers" is disproportionate to the relatively mild criticisms rendered.

[JKL2000]

And I bet the majority of those people are probably a lot younger than 50 or 45. For me it was the opposite. For years I never bothered with anything after Revolver, and prefer stuff even earlier, like Meet The Beatles, A Hard Days Night, Help, etc. I'm pretty sure my brother had all the Pepper-era stuff but I just couldn't get into it back then. I really didn't listen to those albums (especially the white album) until maybe 12 years ago.

I'm 50 and I really don't care for the earliest Beatles cuts.

[bob_32_116]

^^ I think it's possible to love Revolver and Sgt Pepper and not the white album or Abbey Road. I am proof of that.

[Vic2012]

I'm 50 and I really don't care for the earliest Beatles cuts.

But you didn't see them on Ed Sullivan when you were 5-6 years old. I know, it's become a cliche, but it is the absolute truth. Our lives were changed the first time we saw them. Factor in that we saw them on film that same year. A Hard Day's Night really made an impact on us. AHDN is probably my favorite Beatles album (at least from the pre-psychedelic era). There are no cover versions on AHDN, all original songs. No question about it for me, I say without hesitation that I have always preferred the early stuff more than Pepper and everything that followed.

[Rufus]

Sorry but I have to disagree. Tank takes 6:40 of time, and Palmer's drum solo was 1:10 of the song, which is 17% of the total song. Moonchild, however, was 12:15 in length, of which 9:54 (79%) was ambient noodling. Anxiously waiting for them to return to the "song," only to listen to it fizzle out.

I think I understand textures, ambience and improvisation rather well. For me, this is noodling. Palmer's minute long drum solo is at least entertaining, rather than boring like most drum solos. As for Lucky Man (from another post), that was an add-on, true, but it was pleasing, a welcome respite from the energy of the rest of the album, and a pioneering use of the Moog...

Amazing how the very mention of ELP brings the daggers out in some...

This^^^. Love CP's little solo & Lucky Man!!!

Moonchild is just endless noodling .BORING!!