Movies - where we can talk about movies

[JKL2000]

All excellent!

[musicislife]

All excellent!

Silly me! How could I forget those? Lucky for you that you didn't

Btw, the CSN comeback album of the 80s (Daylight Again) had a far better single than "Dark Star" from the one in the 70s :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cBsnopTVmo

[rcarlberg]

Have you seen A Clockwork Orange? It's quite violent.

Yes, of course it is. When I first saw it I was quite shocked. But it's violence (or "ultraviolence") in the pursuit of a story, it is not gratuitious. And it is not gore.

I agree, and also think books that describe violence should be avoided. Ivanhoe, Dracula, Sherlock Holmes

Not violence. Gore.

[JKL2000]

Yes, of course it is. When I first saw it I was quite shocked. But it's violence (or "ultraviolence") in the pursuit of a story, it is not gratuitious. And it is not gore.
Not violence. Gore.

I think there's a lot of "violence" in movies that's more disturbing than "gore."

[Hal...]

As to whether fictionalized violence incites real violence or not, how does anyone explain the bursts of real violence in the wake of movies like A Clockwork Orange or Natural Born Killers?

I think there's a lot of "violence" in movies that's more disturbing than "gore."

I agree. In fact, I always contend that implied violence is often (even?) more disturbing than overt violence because, like a book, it requires your imagination to fill in the blanks. The scene that bothered me more than any other in Se7en is when Leland Orser (the guy in the brothel) is freaked out over being forced to kill a prostitute. You know how he did it but the director (David Fincher) forces you to imagine it rather than show it to you, which kind of puts you in place of the character which, imo, makes it all the more disturbing.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

As to whether fictionalized violence incites real violence or not, how does anyone explain the bursts of real violence in the wake of movies like A Clockwork Orange or Natural Born Killers?

the thing that no one seems to be observing is that these kind of movies have been increasing in number over the past 5 decades...
as are the occurrences of random acts of senseless violence in the real world
the whole process is (relative to one human lifespan) slow and hard to notice...
unless one is aware of what has been foretold

[musicislife]

the thing that no one seems to be observing is that these kind of movies have been increasing in number over the past 5 decades...
as are the occurrences of random acts of senseless violence in the real world
the whole process is (relative to one human lifespan) slow and hard to notice...
unless one is aware of what has been foretold

What has been "foretold"? LOL. You guys are hypothesizing a direct connection between violence in movies and violence in real life without having any way to prove that one exists. Come down off the soap box.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

so... you are completely oblivious to the events in society over the past 50 years?

really?!

[rcarlberg]

There have been lots of changes in society over the past 50 years. Not all of them good.

But many are -- greater women's equality (still not there yet), global communications, access to data, tolerance of gender and sexual diversity, explosion of the arts. All this was foretold, by Timothy Leary.

[musicislife]

so... you are completely oblivious to the events in society over the past 50 years?

really?!

Of course not. But that doesn't mean that movies are to blame. What? Are we in the bible belt all of a sudden???????

[rcarlberg]

I think there's a lot of "violence" in movies that's more disturbing than "gore."

Maybe you have become inured to gore?

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Of course not. But that doesn't mean that movies are to blame. What? Are we in the bible belt all of a sudden???????

where do you get "movies are to blame" from the things I have written?

there is an enormously bigger picture behind this than just "movies"

[Rogue Mail]

It most certainly does. It has permanent effects.

Your obliviousness to it underscores the importance of the issue, from a psychological standpoint.

OK, then lets clarify this a stage further - if we are being logical, we are being de-sensitized to on screen violence.

I actually don't seek out and watch gory movies, though I do watch the occasional horror film. I went through that phase of seeking out the controversial, gory movies that pushed the envelope back in the seventies and eighties and got that out of my system. In truth much of it was overrated and laughable, and looks even more so now.

Essentially, the more we watch on screen violence no matter how realistic, the more we learn to ignore it and crucially accept it for what it is. But that does not mean we become inured to real-life violence, I don't accept that at all. Most of us are able to differentiate between the two and react accordingly.

So I have no issue with you stating I am oblivious to violence in movies, but certainly not that it has some psychological effect on me in everyday life.

[nycsteve]

Remember the furor in the 1970s over the purported existence of "snuff movies" where REAL killings were captured on film? Well today's simulated snuff films (Like the "Saw" franchise) are 100x more graphic and horrifying -- but because they're "fake" I guess they're okay.

People who would pay to see a snuff movie, or kiddie porn, or animal cruelty may not directly contribute to the existence of those things but they're not innocent either.

This I disagree with. Anyone who pays, certainly is contributing at least to future creations of the same, by paying they encourage the creation of more, the profit motive in action.

Animal cruelty films exist? Jeez , its a sick world. But I doubt someone into animal cruelty ended up like that due to influence of mainstream entertainment. They're born with screws loose.
Much more so an influence than movies , would be the environment a child is brought up. Those subjected as children to abuse, are more likely to abuse as adults. It could be argued also that children brought up in war and hate are more likely to engage as adults, the never ending Mid East conflict as evidence. IMO its more likely actual life experoiance desensitizes rather than fantasy violence in films.

[Progatron]

I don't wish to become desensitized to violence, but I don't want to pretend it doesn't exist in the world either. I can still be shocked by it (Irreversible, Saving Private Ryan, Reservoir Dogs, etc.) and not be sorry that I witnessed it. It's an unfortunate and ever-present aspect of life on this planet, so naturally it weaves its way into entertainment both fictional and otherwise.

[musicislife]

where do you get "movies are to blame" from the things I have written?

there is an enormously bigger picture behind this than just "movies"

Wasn't too difficult to "get" that once you posted this:

the thing that no one seems to be observing is that these kind of movies have been increasing in number over the past 5 decades...
as are the occurrences of random acts of senseless violence in the real world
the whole process is (relative to one human lifespan) slow and hard to notice...
unless one is aware of what has been foretold

We are in a movie thread after all, and posters before you were more than implying the connection. This isn't rocket science.

[JKL2000]

Maybe you have become inured to gore?

I don't think so. I definitely avoid seeing images of real gore as anything I've unavoidably seen (in real life) has made me sick to my stomache.

Maybe only some people are more prone to being desensitized by watching fake gore and maybe some of them know it.

[rcarlberg]

On a completely different tact, last night I read "The Story of Your Life" by Ted Chiang, the story on which the movie "Arrival" was based. A REMARKABLE piece of writing, that. Truly mind-altering.

[rcarlberg]

I don't wish to become desensitized to violence, but I don't want to pretend it doesn't exist in the world either. It's an unfortunate and ever-present aspect of life on this planet, so naturally it weaves its way into entertainment both fictional and otherwise.

Will you please re-read what you have written here, with particular emphasis on the word I have put in bold print?

I don't know about you, but with all the violence in the world, I CHOOSE to "entertain" myself with something more pleasant and uplifting. I studiously avoid bringing violence into my real life when I can.

[Progatron]

Will you please re-read what you have written here, with particular emphasis on the word I have put in bold print?

I don't know about you, but with all the violence in the world, I CHOOSE to "entertain" myself with something more pleasant and uplifting. I studiously avoid bringing violence into my real life when I can.

Hey, I get it. Sometimes I want Yes and The Flower Kings instead of Van Der Graaf Generator and Univers Zero. Sometimes I want a comedy or a nature documentary instead of something darker. Just depends on my mood. On a similar note, my wife hates horror movies and doesn't understand why anyone would ever willingly put themselves in a position to be scared. But I like being scared and creeped out by a horror film when I'm in the mood. We're all different.

[rcarlberg]

Much more so an influence than movies , would be the environment a child is brought up. Those subjected as children to abuse, are more likely to abuse as adults. It could be argued also that children brought up in war and hate are more likely to engage as adults, the never ending Mid East conflict as evidence.

Good point.

It's exactly this sort of "normalization" of war and abuse and violence and gore that I am trying to avoid in my life.

"No Country For Old Men." I was profoundly disturbed by this movie, not for its violence (which was largely bloodless) but for the amoral killing by Javier Bardem's character Chigurh. He is so methodical, so relentless, and so utterly non-empathetic in this movie that it really bothered me. I have LOVED other Coen brothers movies, even ones like "Fargo" with plenty of death & destruction (& wood chippers!) But those were, I dunno, "human-sized" killings. Chigurh was something else, inhuman (which I guess was the point). For this reason -- even appreciating the craft of the movie -- I can't bring myself to watch it again.

"Birdman." I was absolutely gobsmacked by this movie when I finally got around to seeing it, and had to rush out and pick up Alejando Iñárritu's other films -- 21 Grams, Biutiful, Babel, Amores perros -- but with the exception of Babel, they're all very dark and twisted and ugly, and I'm not glad i saw them. I'll never want to watch them again, so I have sold most of them (no plans to see "Revenant" for the same reason).

"Arrival." Absolutely gobsmacked by this movie too, but looking into Denis Villaneuve's previous films, I don't want to make the same mistake I made with Iñárritu. They seem to be unpleasant films too, from what I can gather.

"Human Centipede." Why would anybody go to see this movie, knowing how disgusting it's supposed to be?

[JKL2000]

Will you please re-read what you have written here, with particular emphasis on the word I have put in bold print?

I don't know about you, but with all the violence in the world, I CHOOSE to "entertain" myself with something more pleasant and uplifting. I studiously avoid bringing violence into my real life when I can.

That might eliminate a lot of classic films and literature. Take a book like Lord of the Flies. Definitely not pleasant or uplifting, but I'm glad I've read it.

[hippypants]

As to whether fictionalized violence incites real violence or not, how does anyone explain the bursts of real violence in the wake of movies like A Clockwork Orange or Natural Born Killers?

Well, gangs, more access to guns, drugs, broken homes, you name it. I'd guess some violence in the media adds to that as well, but you can't discount the other as well.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Wasn't too difficult to "get" that once you posted this:

the thing that no one seems to be observing is that these kind of movies have been increasing in number over the past 5 decades...
as are the occurrences of random acts of senseless violence in the real world
the whole process is (relative to one human lifespan) slow and hard to notice...
unless one is aware of what has been foretold

We are in a movie thread after all, and posters before you were more than implying the connection. This isn't rocket science.

it's of course true that this is a movie thread and therefore my comments here are about movies, but I never implied that 'movies alone are to blame'

there is a much bigger picture which permeates every aspect of modern society on earth

look... some will 'get it' now and some will 'get it' before it's too late, but most will continue to be blind (precisely because of the desensitization) to the insidious, creeping increase in violence and detestable activity worldwide. I see it because I have been alerted to it. The vast majority will continue to be blinded to it until the end.

I will not say any more on this thread out of respect for the guidelines of PE. Anyone who wishes to continue the discussion and find out what I have been alerted to can PM me. Anyone can continue to post on this subject in this thread if they like, but I will not respond further. PM me

[rcarlberg]

People have been predicting the end since, well, the beginning.

We're still here. Just sayin'.