There is a companion thread to this one over at Chez Hoffman if you can't get enough in here.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...outube.348303/
There is a companion thread to this one over at Chez Hoffman if you can't get enough in here.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...outube.348303/
Yeah, but even as a fan I admit that they improved greatly in the years that followed. Historic though it may be, I wouldn't use this film as any kind of introduction to Can.Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor
Damo is still developing an approach here, and Karoli also has quite a long way to go ...
God I am already sorry I posted about this. I do not see the Emporers Coat in that bands presentation in that video. Its would have been easier to be quiet and go with it. I should have just passed it by...Nah, I doubt anybody'll pay him much attention.
Please forgive me... This is great music.. In fact I will go back and delete my post to make it easier for anyone who only wants to see agreement.
Anyway... Like I said in my empty post.... An absolutly fabulous singer.... The lyrics are stellar. And the music as best I can tell has some sections that cover an entire D chord and just as well a C and they go back and forth between them several hundred times and create a wonderous melody.
I'll be looking to buy some copies of this music if I can find them. Thanks
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
Studied ? Well than I would have expected a little more really. Somtimes people don't see things the same. But I am really seeing any controversay or difference is really not worth the hassle... I'll just enjoy the good music when I hear it..
THanks
Last edited by Classic Progressive; 04-03-2014 at 10:17 AM.
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
I realize you are being sarcastic, and your post was quite funny, but I would seriously recommend you buy at least one. My first Can disc was "Cannibalism", a compilation. I brought it home in 1990 and decided it was the worst music I had ever heard in my life. For much the same things you complain about. I begged the record store manager to take it back but he would not.
After spinning it a dozen times or so I realized it was really great music, and within a year or two I had all Can's cds. So do give it a chance. Then come back and let us know.
I agree 100%, and they did become a great and most peculiar live act. Of course, they were in essence little but a live act, forming out those semi-improvised mosaics of motorik rhythm and minimalist tone patterns together at Schloss Nörvenich for Czukay to reprocess through technical strategies of sonic post-construction to which the end result would often render your Yes or Genesis effort appearing like an Archies hit.
Not all of what Can did was successful as intended, but when triumphant they were moving so far ahead that they would stand behind most others. One might dislike their sound and their ideas and approach, but there was the force of true influence to what they were achieving as artistic unit. As for audiences playing mindlessly along as if they "got it", give'em a loungy bar pianist turned keys megalomaniac farting out Bach extracts on top of a boogie beat and presenting it as "thinking man's music".
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I am trying to look for material.... Other than the first vodeo I saw... now.
You guy's are not normally that far off my path, so I need to learn more about this material.
Imagine you sent someone Tormato... and they really just did not get YES.
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
In my experience CAN really are they're own thing, even in the broader pool of Krautrock. You have to expect to change the way you listen to get an in with them, because they are aiming for a different target altogether. It's some really artsy shit, but the aesthetic payoff is there.
I didn't care for them much on first listen either, but I came around too. I highly suggest starting with Future Days. Then work backwards from there.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
Totally agree except that now you're trying to cut something else down in order to bring Can up; which isn't necessary, IMO.
People have to understand that there are different types of musicians. This early stuff that has surfaced is a group of them feeling around for an organic, distinct musical brand. It's raw, it's not well developed, and aside from Liebezeit's already brilliant drumming, I can see where someone into more traditional "progressive rock" might not relate to this sound that is brewing.
But rewards can happen when you free yourself from the restraints of trying to impress as an individual. This is a big part of what Can were working towards and by the time of Ege Bamyasi they were sometimes even capable of sublime musical genius. That "genius" is simply not evident here, but if you know the final destination, it's easy to appreciate this on a certain level. I'd like to think that most people capable of contributing to a musical discussion forum such as this couldn't possibly think that this film represents why Can are held in high regard by so many. This was them in a primitive state and nowhere near fully evolved.
But even in their fully evolved state, their goal is the total sound of a group. It is never to impress as "soloists," for example. In that sense I'm not sure even their most brilliant work will be understood by someone looking for those elements in "prog."
Believe it or not, I was not pointing to any given name in cutting something down - this time around. Hey, I'm even a Keith Emerson enthusiast! Well, to a certain/limited extent anyway. The point here being that there are positions towards how and/or why a musical expression would seemingly appear sans "musical depth"; most accusations about progressive rock in general being "contrived" or "stressed" in nature emannates from the perspective of a more-is-less logic, right? So equally naturally, the opposite assumption sometimes is expected to function as instinctive judgment of the "primitive". With some music, "primitive" implies just that - which isn't to say it can't have other significant qualities. With Can, however, you actually have to know the theoretical groundwork of their game in order to properly judge the music. To claim "no musical depth whatsoever" on a capacity like Czukay or Schmidt is actually preposterous. Perhaps even more so than accusing Emerson of the same thing.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Quite, Jeff. I've mentioned this attitude from some elsewhere on here and it's really a drag to have to keep reading it. There always seems to be an implicit suggestion that Yes and Genesis fans are conservative. Whereas some of us appreciate just about every form of 'prog'.
With Can, I think most of 'Ege Bamyasi' (one track aside) and 'Future Days' is fairly accessible music. But they do get pretty 'out there' sometimes and that's not for everyone.
Always great to have rare footage turning up. It's always from Europe as well, they must have some terrific archives that we don't even know about.
You know, I spent 14 years as a "progressive rock" writer fending off accusations such as these, and I have written on, collected and promoted absolutely all aspects of the spectrum - but yes, exclusive followers of the "big" groups usually ARE more narrow minded. This is exactly the reason why you'll never ever have your *average* Rolling Stones/Dylan/Springsteen afficcionado appreciate most musics we're discussing in here. So why accept it from within - if not to illustrate the sheer ridicule of its dynamic? Irmin Schmidt and Holger Czukay are both acclaimed contemporary film soundtrack and jingle composers; shouldn't the trained "prog" ear be expected to take this in without bursting out through negation - as in "this isn't 'musical' like Genesis"?
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Hummmmm, I have NEVER in my life run into any fan of Yes or Genesis that did not also cross over into many other progressive rock bands. Not sure what circles you travel but I have found most of the people I know and many of them musicians have fairly good taste in music and have turned me on to some cool shit through the years. IN fact its one of the reasons I read this forum.... Most Prog Rock fans I have found are pretty open minded. I feel I am as well.
The video I watched, was "HORRID".... I simply have a right to feel that way and now ya got me Pisssed that you'd try and cram your "Expert Opinions" down my throught. Musically that concert was not worthy of your "trained musicians"... and as a vocalist myself, that singer was as poorly qualified to hold that position as anyone I have ever seen. My god... he had nothing of any worth to add other than being as unmusical as that sample was. Yoko Ono could have fronted this and it would be about the same result.
I have since found some more material that is much better..... and some of these other video's are far better examples BTW.... I never argued that some of the musicians in this group might be well thought of in their field, That's a sideways point that is not being debated..... but THAT VIDEO would not get them into any band I have worked with and I am just a semi-pro hobbiest at best..! Irmin Schmidt and Holger Czukey may be acclaimed but that does not explain the concert I watched.... And since I do not see it, and found the video way to abrasive and the singer made me cringe in many places..., and I openly spoke of it...... I can see I have unleashed some open anger. Just trying to state my point and more or less get out and get on with possibly learning of some other band more worthy of my time. You even have others in here trying to make the point that there is better matrial from them. I personally have Genesis Songs I dislike... same with Yes... and the Rolling Stones for that matter.
As for "Negation"...... my god....read your own posts sometime... You condem those "personally" it seems, those who have a dislike of this music, or just don't "Get It" sorry I did not "get it"... and its fun to now know the "Be all" "End all" expert on musical taste.... resides in this forum and is trying to make a weak case that I, and or people like me who like the Big names in prog.... are "Narrow Minded" Stereotyping is ignorant and the thought in itself and this foolish argument is not worthy of my time. Do better.....
As for this band and this music....... I'll leave you to it. I'll have to find another time to get to them, I have lost my interst in it now, as it seems to have a lunatic fringe following that has some pent up frustrations about defending it, and this makes it difficult and unsatisfying to debate.
I'll go listen to Genesis and Yes the only bands I like.
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
The conventional wisdom is that Can were incredibly good and influential. It's much easier to go along with that than argue against it. So good on you, Classic Progressive saying what you really think.
1) I have not expressed any "expert opinion" - I have simply pointed to a common status as concerns the object in question - Can. The fact that you actually don't know what to make of it and don't know this object itself, is what effectively renders your purpoted argument devoid of status as "serious" criticizm.
2) When a number of frequent contributors to this forum express their affinity for the artist in question, perhaps some background check could be in order before any blatant attack on something you don't know is in place. Then, maybe, we could discuss the ups and downs of said artist and its representation.
3) No one here is angry. And there are remarkably few lunatics involved that I'm aware of.
4) Stop thinking that the topic of "Yoko Ono's horrible voice" is settled as a matter of objective position, while the "unbettered wonder of wuzzisname" concurs an antithesis to that.
5) I do not negate by pointing to my own claims of adhering to any such objective position; I try to pose an argument as to what my subjective position implies and is based on. If I hear a Gamelan band and don't like it, I'd like to stress that I still know what the hell Gamelan music is essentially about - what its sonic incentives are, the religious motives at play, basic norms of instrumentation, cultural and temporal context etc.
6) This is not about "liking" or "disliking". If you think that's my game, then you have indeed not paid much attention to those posts of mine you are attacking.
With all due respect.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Wagner's music is better than it sounds.
- Mark Twain
Perhaps C. P. would like their earlier vocalist better.
That concert does not stand the test of time for me. Sorry.... but you know me.... "Rolling Stones" kinda guy. Experimentation is great. I can understand the creative values of reaching for something different. Sometimes it works... But what I heard in that first video, and with what limited abilities I have to interperate what is of value to me, I found nothing there. Anything I reach for and hope for in the music iteslf is lost to that singer. My God, anyone could stand there and mumble or sing off key and do that. Music for me has got to at least be produced my musicians with some talent. Even just some unique quality to his voice... anything.. I am quite sure the instrumentalists in that band went on to other things... perhaps they became "exclaimed" in many circles. I will assume work they did later was much better. I'd be curious to know if anyone ever hired this singer again... seriously please tell me if you know, if this guy ever worked again. He has NO ability to form notes that match any code of pitch correctly, his voice has NO redeaming qualities to it. I swear Yoko Ono would be more interesting to watch, as I am always amazed by the painfullness of her work and like watching a train wreck, I find myself staring and listening to her far longer than she deserves. This guy lost me from his first note and never did anything to change my mind.
I know now I am narrow minded, so just take what I say as squeaky rantings, from the squeezed confines of my tiny head.
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
The singer Damo Suzuki certainly has a career of his own.
Well, he paused a bit after Can, became a member of Jehovas Witnesses, but has recorded a lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damo_Suzuki
I saw him live in Copenhagen a few years ago with an american band (forgot the name), but it wasn't really my thing.
He had a pretty illustrious career as evident by the Wikipedia link posted above. But believe me, he never sounded as good as in Can
With all due resepct. Bout time. Thanks
Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.
Ah, and there's the rub. It's like appreciating Pollock or Rothko; while there is a certain amount of surface aesthetic to grab on to in Can's music (for me it's the hypnotic quality and intensity of the jams) it takes an intellectual grasp of their intent to really dig what they're doing.
That's fine, but it's a much harder sell and a harder hill to climb toward appreciation. Not everyone will want to invest that much time and energy since the payoff is not guaranteed. Genesis and Yes may be more like Impressionist art -- still complex, but with more surface beauty -- but that doesn't make it any more or less valid or worthwhile. Sure, by what bands like Can were trying to achieve they miss the mark, but holding up Can's aims as the only ones worth showing interest in you become the thing you criticize: a music snob.
Just IMO.
I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.
For me Can just sits in a niche I like to have in my ears from time to time. A style and sound. Its easy to listen to while working - moments of cool and interesting things. Not a virtuoso collective at all... just the sum of it's parts - which is rather good in itself. I like the analogy of Rothko and Pollack paintings - for me they do nothing - but they were done in a moment in time that needed that sort of thing - and it was somehow pushed into the forefront of the fine art world. Just another style and way of doing things I suppose.
He had a pretty illustrious career as evident by the Wikipedia link posted above. But believe me, he never sounded as good as in Can
Indeed...
and some of these chicks in the audience
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
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