New YES CD "Heaven & Earth" due July 8 / U.S. Summer tour

[Stevie B]

...the opinion that Open Your Eyes is the greatest classic of the Yes' catalog would be just as valid as the idea that Close to the Edge holds the same position.

It is just as valid. How could it possibly not be?

Also, if I was as hung up about production etc as you seem to be, I would wait until I'd heard the finished product rather than a low res mps ripped from a radio broadcast...

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

You're talking about playing a rip from an Internet radio broadcast though. Buy the song from iTunes, play it on your stereo and then see what your wife says.

Henry

Indeed, and I have made that clear in most of my posts. It remains to be seen how many of the audio issues are due to the low quality rip. The production choices however (the wall-to-wall keys, low energy playing, the rough sounding vocal) have nothing to do with the rip.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

It is just as valid. How could it possibly not be?

Well, there we simply disagree. I am not a relativist when it comes to music, or any art form for that matter.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

I'm not especially captivated by the song, but I'd withhold judgement on the other stuff because the version of "Believe Again" is an mp3 encoded from a low bitrate stream and there is a certain fuzziness and harshness that comes along with that. Even an audiophile wet dream Steely Dan type production and mix would suffer a great deal under those circumstances.

To a certain extent, but one of the hallmarks of a great production (and an interesting phenomenon in its own right) is that it will sound pretty awesome even on a tinny mono radio or a lo-res mp3. Steely Dan is actually a good example of that, just give it a try. It won't sound like virgin vinyl or SACD, but you can still tell that the production is great.

[Frumious B]

Indeed, and I have made that clear in most of my posts. It remains to be seen how many of the audio issues are due to the low quality rip. The production choices however (the wall-to-wall keys, low energy playing, the rough sounding vocal) have nothing to do with the rip.

In my listening experiences when I find my mind wandering to complaints about production choices, arrangements and various other minutiae it is virtually always a sign that the song just isn't holding my attention, isn't engaging my emotions and I'm hunting for other more objective sounding excuses as to why when the bottom line is that the tune just isn't doing it for me.

[bondegezou]

I'm not especially captivated by the song, but I'd withhold judgement on the other stuff because the version of "Believe Again" is an mp3 encoded from a low bitrate stream and there is a certain fuzziness and harshness that comes along with that. Even an audiophile wet dream Steely Dan type production and mix would suffer a great deal under those circumstances.

Production, mix, audio quality all matter. On the other hand, if you and JH-L didn't like the song on that rip, I don't think hearing the proper version is going to change your minds.

It might change your mind about the finer points of detail of the mix though.

Henry

[Sean]

I don't really see why people are up in arms about this before it's even released, but knowing Yes fans it's no surprise. I heard a promo copy yesterday and it reminded me of The Ladder. A couple mini-epics as bookends and a lot of pop rock down the middle. But Yes has been doing that sort of pop for decades so this one was no big shock, in fact it's what I expected. Stuff like Lift Me Up, Don't Go, Saving My Heart, It Will Be A Good Day, Hour of Need point right to H & L. So if you liked that side of Yes then you probably will dig this new one. If you were dissapointed with any album from Talk on up because there wasn't enough 70s style Yes prog in the mix your opinion probably won't change now. If you liked 90s Yes I don't think this won't be much of a stretch. It even reminds me of Keys in spots. A riff in Subway Walls sounds like the first 3 notes from Minddrive's ascending bass lick got taken and made into a new riff. One of the cooler "prog" moments on the new one. There's some odd meter bits in that one too....

[Wil]

The (very brief) official Believe Again clip is now up on the http://yesheavenandearth.com/ site. Can't say it blows my socks off but I don't mind it.

EDIT - Looks like you can buy the entire track from iTunes now. Buying the album as a pre-order gets you each track as it becomes available over the coming weeks.

[battema]

I don't really see why people are up in arms about this before it's even released. But knowing Yes fans it's no surprise. I heard a promo copy yesterday and it reminded me of The Ladder. A couple mini-epics as bookends and a lot of pop rock down the middle. But Yes has been doing that sort of pop for decades so this one was no big shock, in fact it's what I expected. Stuff like Lift Me Up, Don't Go, Saving My Heart, It Will Be A Good Day, Hour of Need point right to H & L. So if you liked that side of Yes then you probably will dig this new one. If you were dissapointed with any album from Talk on up because there wasn't enough 70s style Yes prog in the mix your opinion probably won't change now. If you liked 90s Yes I don't think thus will be much of a stretch.

I mean, really...how far back to we have to go to get to a Yes album that *isn't* divisive? Close to the Edge? The debut?!?

I love Yes, even the newer Yes stuff (FFH is one of my favorite Yes albums). I'm very curious to hear H&E, and am mostly keeping any expectations in check. Good god DAMN these Yes threads get exhausting though. Can't we all go back to something less contentious, like Phil Collins' leadership of Genesis or black metal vocals?

[Scott Bails]

Looks like Anil's made a few people quite sore.

Which is kinda stupid, when you think about it. Why get so upset about the release of an album? I'd hate to see how these people react to a real tragedy.

I am reminded of the opening to Anna Karenina: "Все счастливые семьи похожи друг на друга, каждая несчастливая семья несчастлива по-своему." [

Yeah, I've been saying that for years now.

It is just as valid. How could it possibly not be?

Also, if I was as hung up about production etc as you seem to be, I would wait until I'd heard the finished product rather than a low res mps ripped from a radio broadcast...

Completely agree on both points.

[Nearfest2]

A portion "Believe Again" is up on yesheavenandearth.com. IMO, it's rather weak, but they also don't provide enough of the song to allow one to form an accurate opinion. However, the multi-part harmonized part was rough to the point that it sounded like a demo. I also don't think I'm a big fan of Jon Davison. His vocal melodies seem to be all over the place to the point that it sounds like he's singing some sour notes.

[bondegezou]

I mean, really...how far back to we have to go to get to a Yes album that *isn't* divisive? Close to the Edge? The debut?!?

I believe there were reviewers at the time who were critical of the direction taken with CttE who felt the band had gone too far with long songs and complex arrangements.

Henry

[bondegezou]

Yeah, I've been saying that for years now.

Come on, surely that's the best known quote from all of Russian literature! Point me to a better known one. :-)

Henry

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

A portion "Believe Again" is up on yesheavenandearth.com. IMO, it's rather weak, but they also don't provide enough of the song to allow one to form an accurate opinion. However, the multi-part harmonized part was rough to the point that it sounded like a demo. I also don't think I'm a big fan of Jon Davison. His vocal melodies seems to be all over the place to the point that it sounds like he's singing some sour notes.

Thank you - finally someone who's right on the Internet ;-)
I was really taken aback by the roughness of the vocals - a very unusual thing for a Yes album.

[strawberrybrick]

The clip is weak. I can't see any reason to qualify that assessment, or why anyone would be offended by it. It is what it is - weak.

[Stevie B]

Well, there we simply disagree. I am not a relativist when it comes to music, or any art form for that matter.

Well we certainly disagree on the definition of "valid opinion". What your approach to art is is completely irrelevant. We're not discussing you, we're discussing the hypothetical guy who prefers Open Your Eyes to Close to the Edge. There is nothing you or anyone else can say or do that will prove one is better than the other - that is the nature of art.

[bondegezou]

Well we certainly disagree on the definition of "valid opinion". What your approach to art is is completely irrelevant. We're not discussing you, we're discussing the hypothetical guy who prefers Open Your Eyes to Close to the Edge. There is nothing you or anyone else can say or do that will prove one is better than the other - that is the nature of art.

Jacob's position is that he rejects such relativism, but even without embracing relativism, one can still argue that there is no way of reliably ranking the albums for reasons akin to Arrow's theorem.

Henry

[Stevie B]

The clip is weak. I can't see any reason to qualify that assessment, or why anyone would be offended by it. It is what it is - weak.

Some people are probably offended by the attitude that it is somehow measurably poor, that is is simply unfathomable that anyone could find any merit in it whatsoever and the implication that if anyone does think it is anything but a steaming pile of shite then they know nothing about music.

That sort of attitude tends to rub people up the wrong way...

[battema]

Come on, surely that's the best known quote from all of Russian literature! Point me to a better known one. :-)

Henry

"Hold my vodak and watch this, comrade" - Anonymous

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

So - I have now paid good money for the iTunes track just so I can hear this song in glorious hi fidelity. I stand by every word I have said about the radio rip. The higher frequencies did, as expected, suffer from the rip, but otherwise things are as they were. Davison has a hard time actually hitting some of the notes in the opening verses, and it's not like it is an "artistic" choice to forego the use of auto-tune or anything, because the backing vocals are heavily auto-tuned. The middle instrumental section still sounds like a joke or a parody of prog, and the whole song just plods along like no-one, from the actual band to the mixer, really gave a damn. I like two things: Downes' little flourishes and Steve's acoustic strumming which is at least nicely recorded.

[Stevie B]

Jacob's position is that he rejects such relativism, but even without embracing relativism, one can still argue that there is no way of reliably ranking the albums for reasons akin to Arrow's theorem.

Henry

Well I reject his rejection of relativism. Where does that leave us?

[Wil]

I took the bait, put a pre-order in on iTunes and downloaded Believe Again. I've listened a few times on the nice headphones (and yes, I know it won't be the highest of hi-res files) to see if was any better than the net radio rip. Still on the wall about the song; it's pleasant enough and bobs along nicely but I doubt it'll be on my faves list and the production sounds fine to my ears. It does sound like all the instruments are up front with the mics and the vocals are being done in a little room out the back, though. Looking forward to hearing the rest.

[ThomasKDye]

I don't really see why people are up in arms about this before it's even released, but knowing Yes fans it's no surprise. I heard a promo copy yesterday and it reminded me of The Ladder. A couple mini-epics as bookends and a lot of pop rock down the middle. But Yes has been doing that sort of pop for decades so this one was no big shock, in fact it's what I expected. Stuff like Lift Me Up, Don't Go, Saving My Heart, It Will Be A Good Day, Hour of Need point right to H & L. So if you liked that side of Yes then you probably will dig this new one. If you were dissapointed with any album from Talk on up because there wasn't enough 70s style Yes prog in the mix your opinion probably won't change now. If you liked 90s Yes I don't think this won't be much of a stretch. It even reminds me of Keys in spots. A riff in Subway Walls sounds like the first 3 notes from Minddrive's ascending bass lick got taken and made into a new riff. One of the cooler "prog" moments on the new one. There's some odd meter bits in that one too....

Was an assessment like Sean's SO hard, people? No "they should hang it up and die for making this turd and that's objective fact and 'people who are right on the Internet' would agree" stuff. Just "This is pretty much what it is, so if you like that, go to town."

[Frumious B]

As someone who reveres pop songcraft and would rather listen to The Beatles, Kinks, Beach Boys, Big Star or R.E.M. than probably 75-80% of the artists with active threads on PE it always amuses the heck out of me when someone deploys the "It's pop, not prog." defense. IMHO "Believe Again" isn't an especially good song, pop or otherwise. I really do feel like the tunes were stronger and more memorable on The Ladder, Magnification and the Horn/Downes portions of FFH...90125 too, of course.

A song like "God Only Knows", for example, makes me WANT to believe again. It doesn't just tell me to believe again over and over in a genially melodic, but unmemorable fashion. IMHO the great Yes music has pop songwriting of that caliber too, even on their more "prog" efforts like Topographic and Relayer. It's one of the things that sets Yes apart.

[strawberrybrick]

Some people are probably offended by the attitude that it is somehow measurably poor, that is is simply unfathomable that anyone could find any merit in it whatsoever and the implication that if anyone does think it is anything but a steaming pile of shite then they know nothing about music.

That sort of attitude tends to rub people up the wrong way...

The thing is, it is measurably poor. By what standards? Well, any previous Yes material for starts...

If I may, I find the attitude that people need the music to be "good", maybe to validate their fandom? I don't know. Anyway, that's not necessarily good for music. As the saying goes... Kill Your Idols.