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Thread: RTF in concert,1973. WOW!!!

  1. #26
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    And before that, on HttSG, I thought he used a Gibson bass....never heard of him using a Ricki until now....
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Great vid! When I saw them (probably only months before this video), Stanley was playing some sort of a Gibson bass.
    I think he used the Gibson on the album (HotSG). I liked the raw, fat sound of it better than the ultra-clean, too bright Alembic that he used on the other RTF albums. Jimmy Johnson is the only guy I've heard that got a pleasant sound out of one of those basses.

  2. #27
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    I dug this thread up out of the archives because I'm going to be performing the entire "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" album with three other musicians later this month. I've loved that album since it came out in '73, but there's nothing like immersing one's self in learning to actually play the music for gaining a deeper perspective on a record.

    I've played in three specific artist/band cover bands in the past: Jimi Hendrix, Steely Dan and Gentle Giant. They all presented their challenges, but this is without a doubt the most difficult music I've ever played, putting the Gentle Giant one in second place. In both cases, I found myself playing guitar parts that were written by a keyboard player (yes, I'm pretty sure that aside from the improvised solos, Gary Green was playing parts that were mostly composed by either Kerry Minnear or one of the Shulmans). Some stuff is easier on one instrument than on another. But I'm not here to complain about that; I'm always more interested in playing something that will challenge me than the pop music that I make the bulk of my living performing, much of which I can play on auto-pilot. But let's get to the music on this album...

    Return To Forever Mark I was a Brazilian jazz inspired music for the most part (and I loved that stuff too), but when Chick Corea heard The Mahavishnu Orchestra and saw the way audiences were reacting to it, he changed his course drastically and went in that general direction. But his take on jazz-rock fusion had more differences than similarities to The MO. Chick's music was more thoroughly composed than McLaughlin's and though there was a decent amount of room for improvisation, there was definitely a higher percentage of composition. And while McLaughlin drew some influence from Indian music, Chick still had some of the Latin-American influence left over (particularly noticeable on "Captain Senor Mouse"). In general, RTF sounds tighter and more well rehearsed than The MO, though there's much (if not all) of the adrenaline that The MO had.

    Then there's the Connors vs. DiMeola (who replaced Connors after this album and tour) thing. I suppose it's all subjective, but I always preferred Connors... and even moreso after listening and playing along with this album so extensively. Bill's playing was very expressive; even when nailing those difficult parts, he's using a lot of dynamics and finger vibrato... just putting a lot of personality in those parts. DiMeola was super precise, but I don't hear the same soul that Bill had. I know, that's just me.

    Anyway, this music is really amazing (even moreso to me now) and I'm often in awe of how Chick came up with a lot of this stuff. I'm as excited as I am nervous about playing this stuff and I'm praying that The Force will be with my bandmates and me for this show. First rehearsal will be in a couple of days!

  3. #28
    You will take that gig and kick its ass.

  4. #29
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Anyway, this music is really amazing (even moreso to me now) and I'm often in awe of how Chick came up with a lot of this stuff. I'm as excited as I am nervous about playing this stuff and I'm praying that The Force will be with my bandmates and me for this show. First rehearsal will be in a couple of days!
    Sounds awesome. Break a leg!
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  5. #30
    Member gearHed289's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I'm going to be performing the entire "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" album with three other musicians later this month.
    When, where, and with whom? I'd love to be there.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Then there's the Connors vs. DiMeola (who replaced Connors after this album and tour) thing. I suppose it's all subjective, but I always preferred Connors... and even moreso after listening and playing along with this album so extensively. Bill's playing was very expressive; even when nailing those difficult parts, he's using a lot of dynamics and finger vibrato... just putting a lot of personality in those parts. DiMeola was super precise, but I don't hear the same soul that Bill had. I know, that's just me.
    I guess it's because I got to know the Di-Meola-years first (and buying his first solo-albums and Stomu Yamashta's GO) that I love Romantic Warrior more than Hymn, but after I heard the latter for the first time I admired it too.

    Good Luck Ernie! Hopefully this will inspire you to work on some new stuff of your own.

  7. #32
    Howdy Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    One of the best things about it is, no Gayle Moran vocals.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Then there's the Connors vs. DiMeola (who replaced Connors after this album and tour) thing. I suppose it's all subjective, but I always preferred Connors... and even moreso after listening and playing along with this album so extensively. Bill's playing was very expressive; even when nailing those difficult parts, he's using a lot of dynamics and finger vibrato... just putting a lot of personality in those parts. DiMeola was super precise, but I don't hear the same soul that Bill had. I know, that's just me.

    I've always considered Romantic Warrior as strong as Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy. I wish Bill would have stuck around for a few more RTF releases. Why did he leave anyway? The first two with Al were uneven but both had good music on them. Perhaps your right that Bill had more personality in his playing which maybe Al never had but I always loved Al's work on Romantic Warrior. I don't think it was Al that made that one better then the other two with him though, it just was a great album.

  9. #34
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I always preferred Connors...
    +1. Fun Fact: Earl Klugh turned down Chick's offer to replace Connors.
    Michael: "Harold, don't you have any other music, you know, from [last] century?"
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I dug this thread up out of the archives because I'm going to be performing the entire "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" album with three other musicians later this month. I've loved that album since it came out in '73, but there's nothing like immersing one's self in learning to actually play the music for gaining a deeper perspective on a record.
    No doubt about it. Enjoy the rehearsals and gig!
    David
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearHed289 View Post
    It's a standard Ric 4000. Bridge pickup only will make a guitar or bass brighter, not warmer. I've seen old clips of him with his Gibson EB2, and that had some distortion too, which I believe is just the amp overdriving. Just saw Stanley Friday night. It was great!
    IIRC, Stanley got the Ric after hearing Squire. I read that in an interview somewhere. But for me, his sound is really about the Alembic. And BTW, the "piccolo bass" thing came much later....he had it made, tuned one octave up from regular bass. Most of the time he was playing a regulary tuned bass. (EADG)
    "And this is the chorus.....or perhaps it's a bridge...."

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    +1. Fun Fact: Earl Klugh turned down Chick's offer to replace Connors.
    Well he did, eventually, but he did play a few gigs with them before they got Al at the last minute for the July 1974 Carnegie Hall show.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I dug this thread up out of the archives because I'm going to be performing the entire "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" album with three other musicians later this month. I've loved that album since it came out in '73, but there's nothing like immersing one's self in learning to actually play the music for gaining a deeper perspective on a record.

    I've played in three specific artist/band cover bands in the past: Jimi Hendrix, Steely Dan and Gentle Giant. They all presented their challenges, but this is without a doubt the most difficult music I've ever played, putting the Gentle Giant one in second place. In both cases, I found myself playing guitar parts that were written by a keyboard player (yes, I'm pretty sure that aside from the improvised solos, Gary Green was playing parts that were mostly composed by either Kerry Minnear or one of the Shulmans). Some stuff is easier on one instrument than on another. But I'm not here to complain about that; I'm always more interested in playing something that will challenge me than the pop music that I make the bulk of my living performing, much of which I can play on auto-pilot. But let's get to the music on this album...

    Return To Forever Mark I was a Brazilian jazz inspired music for the most part (and I loved that stuff too), but when Chick Corea heard The Mahavishnu Orchestra and saw the way audiences were reacting to it, he changed his course drastically and went in that general direction. But his take on jazz-rock fusion had more differences than similarities to The MO. Chick's music was more thoroughly composed than McLaughlin's and though there was a decent amount of room for improvisation, there was definitely a higher percentage of composition. And while McLaughlin drew some influence from Indian music, Chick still had some of the Latin-American influence left over (particularly noticeable on "Captain Senor Mouse"). In general, RTF sounds tighter and more well rehearsed than The MO, though there's much (if not all) of the adrenaline that The MO had.

    Then there's the Connors vs. DiMeola (who replaced Connors after this album and tour) thing. I suppose it's all subjective, but I always preferred Connors... and even moreso after listening and playing along with this album so extensively. Bill's playing was very expressive; even when nailing those difficult parts, he's using a lot of dynamics and finger vibrato... just putting a lot of personality in those parts. DiMeola was super precise, but I don't hear the same soul that Bill had. I know, that's just me.

    Anyway, this music is really amazing (even moreso to me now) and I'm often in awe of how Chick came up with a lot of this stuff. I'm as excited as I am nervous about playing this stuff and I'm praying that The Force will be with my bandmates and me for this show. First rehearsal will be in a couple of days!
    Steely Dan, GG and RTF cover bands, huh. But how are you getting on with the Cecil Taylor transcriptions ya lazy bastard??

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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    +1. Fun Fact: Earl Klugh turned down Chick's offer to replace Connors.
    I picked up one of his cds at the Goodwill last week. SMOOTH JAZZ
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  15. #40
    I've heard a few Earl Klugh records and unless there is another side to his playing that doesn't come through there, too mellow for RtF 1974.

  16. #41
    Enjoy Pt. 1. [/QUOTE]

    That's how you do it. Note to musicians, use real instruments and keep it real. Stop pretending. Pure inspiration here!

  17. #42
    Congratulations, that's some tough material. My fusion band does "Senor Mouse" and it still kicks my ass. I know what you mean, I'm playing some of Chick's keyboard parts on sax and they are particularly difficult. Amazing composer!
    -noisynoise
    www.polarizedguru.com - 5-piece jazz fusion group
    www.incandescentsky.com - inventive improvisational instrumental ensemble

  18. #43
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearHed289 View Post
    When, where, and with whom? I'd love to be there.
    In Chicago; The Jazz Record Art Collective on 1/24/19. It's a different kind of club, their whole thing is having musicians play classic jazz albums in their entirety. I've played there once a couple of years ago doing "Mingus - Ah Um" as a guitar/organ/drums trio.
    https://www.jazzrecordartcollective.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Fracktured View Post
    I've always considered Romantic Warrior as strong as Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy. I wish Bill would have stuck around for a few more RTF releases. Why did he leave anyway?
    He became disillusioned with the direction the music was going in and with Chick's Scientology influenced leadership. Basically the same reason why Scott Henderson left Chick's Elektric Band.

    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    +1. Fun Fact: Earl Klugh turned down Chick's offer to replace Connors.
    Yeah, I just learned that recently. I can't imagine how that would've ever worked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    Steely Dan, GG and RTF cover bands, huh. But how are you getting on with the Cecil Taylor transcriptions ya lazy bastard??

    I never formed or led any of these projects; they were just things I was asked to do. And I don't transcribe; I'm far too lazy to do that. As I mentioned above, this venue specializes in bands playing classic jazz albums; for all I know, there might have been a Cecil Taylor - Unit Structures night.

    Quote Originally Posted by noisynoise View Post
    Congratulations, that's some tough material. My fusion band does "Senor Mouse" and it still kicks my ass. I know what you mean, I'm playing some of Chick's keyboard parts on sax and they are particularly difficult. Amazing composer!
    "Senor Mouse" was the first transcribed chart I received and started working on. It IS an ass kicker and for a while I thought I wouldn't be able to play it and maybe I should bow out of this thing. After much practice I can (almost) play it. :-) Then again, all but two of these tunes are chops busters!
    Last edited by No Pride; 01-05-2019 at 12:30 PM.

  19. #44
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisynoise View Post
    Congratulations, that's some tough material. My fusion band does "Senor Mouse" and it still kicks my ass. I know what you mean, I'm playing some of Chick's keyboard parts on sax and they are particularly difficult. Amazing composer!
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    "Senor Mouse" was the first transcribed chart I received and started working on. It IS an ass kicker and for a while I thought I wouldn't be able to play it and maybe I should bow out of this thing. After much practice I can (almost) play it. :-) Then again, all but two of these tunes are chops busters!
    That one must be a major workout for all involved! Pretty frantic stuff, but so beautifully composed.
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  20. #45
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    I've heard a few Earl Klugh records and unless there is another side to his playing that doesn't come through there, too mellow for RtF 1974.
    I knew Earl a bit back then and he played a tape of a rehearsal with RTF for me. He played electric and presumably hung with them, but he didn't want to be in someone else's group; he wanted to do his own thing.
    Michael: "Harold, don't you have any other music, you know, from [last] century?"
    Harold: "There is no other music....."

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    In Chicago; The Jazz Record Art Collective on 1/24/19. It's a different kind of club, their whole thing is having musicians play classic jazz albums in their entirety. I've played there once a couple of years ago doing "Mingus - Ah Um" as a guitar/organ/drums trio.
    https://www.jazzrecordartcollective.com
    That's a really cool concept for a club (unfortunately I'm not near Chicago). How is attendance in general?
    -noisynoise
    www.polarizedguru.com - 5-piece jazz fusion group
    www.incandescentsky.com - inventive improvisational instrumental ensemble

  22. #47
    The one time to date I have been to the club was when Chris Siebold's group played Hot Rats. It was a good crowd.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    They did a TV appearance here in the UK in the same era on the 'Old Grey Whistle Test' doing 'Space Circus'.
    No idea if the footage to which you refer was floating about when this thread was started in 2014, but here it is:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6LA_3rX7M

  24. #49
    These guys have a comprehensive box? I've got the obvious stuff and some live stuff from the reunion a few years back but nothing career spanning.

  25. #50
    Progdog ThomasKDye's Avatar
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    FYI, this thread made me look into RTF music on YouTube, and I really like it. I've only dipped my toe into jazz-fusion, mostly because it's only been 20% of the time when I've had that itch to scratch. This definitely is some good stuff. It's full of mesmerizing grooves alternating with funky little odd-time sig links. The key word being "grooves."
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