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Thread: True Detective - HBO

  1. #51
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smörgåsbord View Post
    Yeah, what was that all about? I couldn't figure out if it was all in his head or if he really heard it.
    He really heard it. In caves and some buildings, sound travels in a really weird way: a person can speak in a normal voice and be heard 100 feet away. I've seen this demonstrated at caves and at the Capitol building in Wash DC.
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  2. #52
    PE Member Since 4/9/2002 NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Another show that demands to be watched again (and again), to fully see what's there. Lots of levels here.

    Hal, you are quite entitled to feel the way you do about this version of TD, but I think there is an angle you may be overlooking.

    The show was never about green-eared spaghetti monsters.

    The case itself is only secondary to the two characters. Nic Pizzolotto, the writer of the show, has pointed out he doesn't care about serial killers.

    The show is about the relationship between Rust and Marty, how that relationship grows to the point where it is Marty who uses his gut, learning from Rust, his polar opposite, to solve the case.

    I have given the green ears clue more thought. So they had photos of either Marie Fontenot's or maybe another missing girl's family's home. I think that has to be the house's connection to the case. They had a before green paint (1995?) photo and after green paint photo (2004?) of her house and that was the only one of all the houses that was now painted green. So Errol paints Marie's house (and accidentally his ears) green, spots his young target and that is the connection made...

    OK, I think that's the gist of it. Very intuitive call by Marty.

    The ending really shows how this was a character driven show as opposed to a plot driven show. The case is not the point.

    It's about Rust getting a Hart. And Marty finding his own inner Cohl.
    “Where words fail, music speaks.” - Hans Christian Anderson

  3. #53
    PE Member Since 4/9/2002 NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post

    The part of the ending that bothered me was Rust indicating he's having another "episode", where he tastes aluminum, which lead up to his hallucination which then lead to Scarface successfully bum rushing him. If Rust was about to have another hallucination, and given the lack of phone service, WTF didn't they go call for backup then? (for that matter, why did Rust & Marty split up in the first place? Cops don't split up like that)
    Marty called for backup at the house after he threatened the monster's half sister and she showed him where the phone was. No way for them to call before then since they only found out there was no cell service once they were already there in the Childress driveway.

    They split the exact same way they did at Reggie Ledoux's place and for the same reason. "Clear the house." They had no idea there was only one person that was a threat on site.

    However, if they introduced Scarface in an earlier episode and created the tension the way I suggested, the impetus for Rust & Marty moving in without backup would be to save any possible kidnapped child(ren).
    They went in without backup for many reasons, for one they are no longer with the force, Pappania and the other detective don't really trust Rust and consider him a suspect. Plus they do want to save any possible victims as you say. They also may not even trust people on the force, who they might suspect may even tip Childress off...

    I also wasn't thrilled with the whole fight scene. After Rust got stabbed, Scarface could have pushed him down on the ground and as Rust is dying, they could have gotten into a philosophical debate – nihilism vs insanity (could have been hilarious, like his monologues early in the season) – before Marty comes in & pops a cap in Scarface's noggin. We could have also learned a bit more about Scarface's history/motivation.
    Who knows, not the worst idea in the world, it might have even worked. Remus (from Boardwalk Empire) playing Errol does a real impressive job and could have pulled it off. He really got to show those chops by imitating James Mason (in North by Northwest) to a T early in the episode.

    But again, this kind of debate was probably ruled out because it would not be in line with the Rust/Hart dynamic, and the serial killer case is really besides the main theme of the show.
    Last edited by NeonKnight; 03-10-2014 at 11:13 PM.
    “Where words fail, music speaks.” - Hans Christian Anderson

  4. #54
    PE Member Since 4/9/2002 NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeonKnight View Post
    Another show that demands to be watched again (and again), to fully see what's there. Lots of levels here.

    I have given the green ears clue more thought. So they had photos of either Marie Fontenot's or maybe another missing girl's family's home. I think that has to be the house's connection to the case. They had a before green paint (1995?) photo and after green paint photo (2004?) of her house and that was the only one of all the houses that was now painted green. So Errol paints Marie's house (and accidentally his ears) green, spots his young target and that is the connection made...

    OK, I think that's the gist of it. Very intuitive call by Marty.
    Took my own advice and rewatched the episode.

    Couple things on Marty's hunch. He went back to the original Dora Lange canvassing photos, not Marie Fontenot. The fresh green painted house was the old photo (1995) and the other photo showed the paint job all faded away. (way later)

    As for Rust and his hallucinations, he told Hart they don't stop, "it never gets better". So they were not going to call for backup simply because Rust had another vision, since he's always having them anyway.

    At the house, Rust mentions he wants to check the house for a phone, then Marty says he will do it instead.

    "Come die with me little priest".
    “Where words fail, music speaks.” - Hans Christian Anderson

  5. #55
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Was the hallucination supposed to be a reference to the drawn swirl? I didn't see any swirls painted anywhere in that fort or on the shack walls (maybe I missed it), but they could have integrated that a little better. Maybe showing Rust blinking as he moved from sun to shadow going through the place. Maybe showing him seeing a big painted swirl before seeing the hallucination.
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  6. #56
    PE Member Since 4/9/2002 NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeonKnight View Post
    They split the exact same way they did at Reggie Ledoux's place and for the same reason. "Clear the house." They had no idea there was only one person that was a threat on site.
    Another nice layer revealed on the rewatch. Rust loves his "life is a circle" theory. So naturally, Rust shoots Errol in the back of the head, full circle back for Marty, who shot LeDoux in the head.

    So nice that we also get a dreamy airborne montage shot of some significant locations, the LeDoux shacks, the docks and bayous, and the tree in the field where we started, where Dora Lange's body was found.

    Full circle.
    “Where words fail, music speaks.” - Hans Christian Anderson

  7. #57
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    Great thread about a really terrific show. I enjoyed this show immensely. It's not about the murders, its about the characters, although Childress is a real evil SOB.
    "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
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  8. #58
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeonKnight
    Hal, you are quite entitled to feel the way you do...
    Much appreciated.

    The case itself is only secondary to the two characters. Nic Pizzolotto, the writer of the show, has pointed out he doesn't care about serial killers.
    Then why the mystery aspect and all the details about Carcosa, the schools, the Tuttles, the Childresses, etc? In fact, why treat the case aspect of the show as a procedural? Pizzolatto may claim the show is a character study but there are three narratives going on: the investigation in '95 (told in flashback), their personal relationships (also told in flashback), and the interviews/investigation (as it stands in the present).
    As for Errol Childress, this is what Pizzolatto said in an interview with Entertainment Weekly:

    EW: Errol Childress was pungent with rot and weird. What was your philosophy regarding the villain of the show and how you portrayed him in the finale?

    NP: We had kept the monster behind the curtain and we needed to get to know him. We had showed aspects of the monster and we had showed the historical genesis of the monster or at least provided enough information to describe him. For the finale, I thought the audience deserved to get a close point of view on the monster, and to recognize him the way you recognize the heroes of True Detective. There are no monsters other than humans, no heroes other than humans. The challenge with Errol was to imply an entire history and personal mythology and methodology within the limited amount of time we had with him. Since this was the finale, I thought we could make room for one more point of view, the dark mirror to our characters, the shadow they’ve been chasing for 17 years without knowing it, the historical victim of bad men who murders women and children. [emphasis added]

    But why limit their time with him? (before the "big showdown", they only devoted just over 5½ minutes to Childress). I'm simply saying that the show could have been tightened up to allow more time with Childress. And why not? You criticized (unfairly, I'd add) The Killing for how it handled the investigation, and yet you give TD a pass, when the investigation is as integral to that show as it was in TK. In fact, after episode 7 of TD, the feeling I came away with was it was too pat, much like the ending of season 3 of TK. In the years since Rust quit the force, he did all this investigation on his own and then suddenly we have a solid lead to the man with the scars. It was as if we went from point A to Z without getting to see how that went down in real time. Sure, we got to see it when Rust was showing Marty, and that was really compelling stuff I'd add, but it happened too quickly. It was as if the writers spent too much time on everything leading up to the end and realized, "oh shit, we gotta end this show." Boom. Ending.

    I'd also argue that The Killing had character study as a vital aspect of its storyline as much as TD did.

    The show is about the relationship between Rust and Marty, how that relationship grows to the point where it is Marty who uses his gut, learning from Rust, his polar opposite, to solve the case.
    Nice idea, except it wasn't until Rust showed Marty the pictures & videotape he got from Tuttle's house. And he had to tell him that he has a "debt" to repay (by killing Ledoux instead of taking him into custody to learn about any possible accomplices). So, Marty still had to be convinced. Also, I never thought Rust operated from hunches (his gut). I always thought that of the officers we saw, Rust was above everyone else intellectually. Just because they couldn't connect the dots the way Rust did doesn't mean Rust was operating intuitively.

    So Errol paints Marie's house (and accidentally his ears) green, spots his young target and that is the connection made...
    That's how I interpreted it.
    This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

  9. #59
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    The ending really shows how this was a character driven show as opposed to a plot driven show. The case is not the point.
    You, too, are entitled to feel the way you do. It's no biggie; most writers don't know how to end a movie or show, so in that respect, this show didn't let me down. Writers should study Coen Bros movies more.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeonKnight View Post
    Marty called for backup at the house after he threatened the monster's half sister and she showed him where the phone was.
    They didn't actually show that. Marty threatens the woman and asks where the phone is. The next time we see Marty is when he's running out of the house. We only find out he called for backup at the very end of that scene.

    No way for them to call before then since they only found out there was no cell service once they were already there in the Childress driveway.
    They split the exact same way they did at Reggie Ledoux's place and for the same reason. "Clear the house." They had no idea there was only one person that was a threat on site.
    Actually, they didn't split at Ledoux's place, initially. Marty went in to clear the house (actually, a mobile home) but Rust was circling the house looking in through the windows. So even tho Marty was inside & Rust outside, Rust was covering Marty's back.
    It was only after they had Ledoux in custody that they truly split up and even then it was because someone had to watch Ledoux. They also knew that there was only Ledoux & Dewall on site. Dewall was in the semi trailer and Marty went into that other building/trailer to see what was in there. That's where he found the kids. Rust, OTOH, was watching the trailer with Dewall while also staying in proximity of Ledoux. So, they didn't split up the way they did at Childress' place.

    As for the final episode, it went awry because they didn't follow procedure. (I don't know if you know anyone in law enforcement, but I've had some LE training in the Coast Guard and my cousin is a cop) When cops arrive on scene, they take one thing at a time because there's safety in numbers. If they think there's the possibility of a murderer on scene, they set up a perimeter first before sending in teams.
    [The first thing Rust said when he got out of the car was, "call Papania." And later said, "this is the place"; the smart thing would have been for one of them to retreat and call Papania while the other set up surveillance. Indeed, that would have been the smart thing for the writers, too]
    If cops encounter a situation analogous to Rust & Marty's, they'd stick together. Period. Rust telling Marty to clear the house was not following procedure. No they're not cops anymore, but that kind of training is followed for safety reasons. The dog running out and getting clobbered alerted Rust. His response to Marty shouldn't have been "clear the house" but "cover me." They set up the ending as a kind of showdown between Rust & Childress and didn't follow through.

    They went in without backup for many reasons...
    No, one: they didn't know how to write it.

    ...for one they are no longer with the force...
    Recall the conversation between Papania & Marty when Marty asks, "we get something, do you want the call or you want it to go to someone else?" to which Papania responds, "give it to me." So, why didn't they? And don't give me the excuse that they didn't have cell service. Yes, Rust and then Marty was going to go inside to use the phone but they were at a possible suspect's property. They could have left and let the proper authorities handle it.

    Pappania and the other detective don't really trust Rust...
    But they don't distrust Marty. Also, see above.

    They also may not even trust people on the force, who they might suspect may even tip Childress off...
    But they trust Papania. That's why they were going to call him.

    BTW, I'm arguing two different things:
    1. The way that scene went down, they obviously didn't have a cop as a consultant. My reaction was, "c'mon, cops don't do shit like that!" Now, I'm not saying they should have a cop on staff, but...
    2. If they're going to ignore #1 to advance the narrative, then, at least, write the scene intelligently. There were all kinds of ways to set up the scene in the fort (or whatever that was) that would make sense. The way they did it was kinda stupid and/or lazy. But that's my opinion.

    Oh, and lastly, Childress picking up Rust by the knife required way too much suspension of disbelief especially considering the knife was edge up. Also, the first rule of a puncture wound is "never pull the object out." Cops know this, so when Rust pulled the knife out, he should have bled out really quickly. Hell, anyone who's ever watched ER or Chicago Hope knows that.

    That whole scene was just one stupid thing after another. Their saving grace was the final scene, which was excellently written.
    This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

  10. #60
    Member Klonk's Avatar
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    Remind me to never watch anything ever with Hal...
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  11. #61
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    Finally got to see the episode last night. I agree with Hal... about wanting to get more into Childress' head, ALTHOUGH what little bit was exposed in this last episode went a long way into revealing the creepo factor there.

    Favorite scenes, the chase through the ruins for the atmosphere, the final scene and dialogue at the hospital and Childress throwing the pan at the dog for getting his dirty paws on the kitchen floor.
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  12. #62
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klonk View Post
    Remind me to never watch anything ever with Hal...
    I'm sorry that went on so long; I'm not sure how that happened. My problem is I minored in film studies and deconstructing stuff was part & parcel of those courses.
    This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

  13. #63
    Member Klonk's Avatar
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    that explains it! OK I'll watch something with you, but only if it's a documentary
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  14. #64
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    That might not be a good idea, either. I ripped apart the Stones' Gimme Shelter. Now, an avant garde film, OTOH, we could do. The only problem is, we'd have to watch it 10-20 times.
    This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

  15. #65
    PE Member Since 4/9/2002 NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Hal, nice write ups, I enjoyed reading those.

    As already mentioned we are all entitled to our opinions and viewpoints. I'm sorry to hear TD did not meet your expectations, at least in some ways...

    As for me, I was not disappointed with very much. I thought the last episode gave all the insight I needed to learn about Errol, maybe even a bit too much. Did we really need to see and hear what "making flowers" was all about?

    I mentioned Errol channeling James Mason in North by Northwest. I feel that was kind of an homage to the master of suspense, Alfred Hitchcock. I'm not so sure Alfred would have revealed even as much as we ended up knowing about Childress if it was Hitch making TD.

    I guess I'm from the old school because when the writer of the show says, "I have literally no interest in serial killers", I really don't expect to learn all that much about serial killers.
    “Where words fail, music speaks.” - Hans Christian Anderson

  16. #66
    Member Just Eric's Avatar
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    I read a tidbit on Huffington Post that the next season will have to do with the rise of the transportation industry. I'm thinking something similar to Chinatown and couldn't be more excited if that turns out to be true.
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  17. #67
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Making Flowers - probably the first time that HBO/Showtime/etc. didn't use beautiful looking people for a sex scene. Thank God they kept their clothes on.
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  18. #68
    Matt! polmico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Was the hallucination supposed to be a reference to the drawn swirl? .
    It was the universe.

    The big black.

    It sucks us in.

    It wins.

    I have lots of thoughts on how this show ended. None of them are resolved.

    But life on the subatomic level works a lot like astro physics and I assume we fit in somewhere. But it ain't comfortable.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  19. #69
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    OK, yeah, I get the symbolism, but that was the first time they showed him actively hallucinating. The show should have introduced that particular personal failing somewhat earlier and it wouldn't have then appeared to be so random.
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  20. #70
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    I have been staying away from this thread until tonight as I just had the chance to watch the last two episodes. Very interesting discussions here. I am not sure how I feel about the finale. I plan on watching it again. In fact if I get the time I would like to watch the whole series again. The finale was a bit of a mixed bag for me, but I am still thinking about it.

  21. #71
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I just watched the finale last night, having been in and out of reality for a number of days. I was gobsmacked by it. Best show of 2014 has its definite front runner. I'm picky but not as picky as Hal. This was as about as good as it gets on TV, something with a definitive story arc that holds together like a novel. More should try for this but few ever do. That's a longer discussion and would be sorely missing the presence of Ken Walsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    OK, yeah, I get the symbolism, but that was the first time they showed him actively hallucinating. The show should have introduced that particular personal failing somewhat earlier and it wouldn't have then appeared to be so random.
    Nope, he had a big one in one of the earlier episodes, while driving down the freeway.

    I'd also argue that The Killing had character study as a vital aspect of its storyline as much as TD did.
    Well, Nic Pizzolatto did write two eps of The Killing. He said the backlash over the ending of season one of that show made him determined to make the ending for True Detective something people were going to find closure in.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    I'm sorry that went on so long; I'm not sure how that happened. My problem is I minored in film studies and deconstructing stuff was part & parcel of those courses.
    And I thought it was because you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

    As to the show, I just finished watching the last 4 episodes. Frankly I expected more at the end, but it was all good. I guess with all the positive critical reviews, expectations were high. Watching it on-demand, I gave up and switched to watching it with sub-titles, there was too much I was missing. Also, each on-demand episode has 5 minutes of ending summary by the writers discussing their goal with that episode.

  23. #73
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Finally watched the last two episodes tonight, I've been avoiding this thread for obvious reasons. I thought the ending was terrific, yes there were holes but overall this character study has been the best telly of the year.
    Ian

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  24. #74
    I just finished this as well. I watched 4 episodes the other day and finished up last night. Matthew, Woody and Michelle were absolutely brilliant in their roles. superb acting! I loved the way the story intertwined the two time lines. admittedly, I was a little disappointed with the ending. I thought they could have squeezed another episode in between the last two but I also understand it was more of character study than about the actual killer or at least that's what I think. great show nonetheless.

    I read somewhere this show's intention was to go with a new cast of characters each season and I didn't understand that until the end. it will be hard to top what the 3 main actors did with this season though (at least for me). whomever follows will have to be at the top of their game.
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  25. #75
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Bump for those just getting to the show on DVD.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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