RIP Phillip Seymour Hoffman

[JKL2000]

"self destruction" from pot? LOL. Your experiences are highly atypical, if they're even true at all.

I don't think there's any reason to doubt what Thomas is saying - developing a pot habit early in life isn't a good thing for some people. Some people can't moderate it well. Basically it all comes down to the ability to moderate it. Alcoholics react differently to alcohol than non-alcoholics do, and they also have difficulty moderating their intake. You don't have the same different inherent reactions to pot, but you can have similar problems moderating the amount and frequency, and that's where problems can develop.

[Yanks2014]

I've been tobacco-free since Oct '99

Congrats, I'm sure your lungs have been rather happy about that decision.

I've been tobacco free since, well, Saturday! Mine was a nice cigar, first one since October. I never wanted to be dependent on anything, so the idea of cigarettes was never appealing to me. Did the kids at school who smoked look cool to me? Absolutely. Wasn't enough of a reason for me to start, so I never did. As to addictions, well I can't claim I've never had any, especially if buying music is considered an addiction. Also nearly had an addiction to strip clubs, that's an expensive one. No porn addiction though, I don't want to end up one of those idiots getting caught looking at it at work. I guess the key to all this is not getting into any one habit to the point it becomes the sole purpose of your day. But there are choices too. I've been on pain killers before, and was always careful to only take them when the pain was it's most extreme. I'd rather suffer a little than deal with the consequences. That was a choice. Not deciding to stick a needle in your arm is a pretty easy way to avoid one addiction. Not hanging out with known abusers is another, easy way.

[Yanks2014]

"self destruction" from pot? Your experiences are highly atypical, if they're even true at all.

Why on earth would I lie about something like that? I'm accused of a lot of things on PE, some are even accurate, but a liar, this is a first. My examples are two of my brothers and a few of their friends. My brothers eventually quit all of that, and turned their lives around. A couple of the friends, not really, they never could quite get their lives in order. I also had classmates who didn't straighten their lives out until years later if at all. My own circle of friends were not into partying, far less than me, and I was tame. I guess you could say they were boring, but at least I didn't get any peer pressure from them.

[ronmac]

Most people who drink, the vast majority, they don't have a drinking problem. Can't quite say that about heroin use. Do it once, and well, you have a problem.

First of all, I wasn't asking you that question. And I wasn't asking about alcohol compared to heroin. I was asking about alcohol compared to pot. Secondly, if you think so-called pot addiction is anywhere near the problem of alcohol addiction, you're sadly mistaken. Millions of families have been ruined by alcoholism. I would challenge you to find similar numbers with pot.

As to alcohol, I really didn't know many people who developed any kind of problem other than one of my uncles, and he already was an alcoholic before I was born. The people I got drunk with at parties, well they grew up and matured, and the idea of getting trashed on a regular basis lost it's appeal.

I'm glad for you that you've shielded from the real world, unlike the rest of us. Your experiences certainly seem to be an aberration. You're one of the lucky ones. But, to project your experiences on the rest of the world is naive, when there's a multitude of data that contradicts your assertions.

I've been tobacco free since, well, Saturday! Mine was a nice cigar, first one since October.

You can get throat cancer from cigars. I honestly hope you don't get it. Because, if you do and have to face radiation treatments, you might not be able to eat without a few hits of Mary Jane.

[Facelift]

Why on earth would I lie about something like that? I'm accused of a lot of things on PE, some are even accurate, but a liar, this is a first.

I never said you were lying.

We all bring our prejudices and viewpoints to things that we see. Sometimes this affects how we see them. For example, you just misread my post.

Anyway, I didn't even say that this was happening, I just stated that it was a possibility.

[rcarlberg]

But really? Another rich celeb kills himself with illegal substances....should we care?

Yeah, it's an embarrassing way to go. Surely it wasn't intentional or planned or the way he would have wanted to be remembered -- so let's don't, okay?

I think of PSH as the Meryl Streep of male actors -- played a WIDE variety of characters, always utterly convincingly. Not a "leading actor" in the looks department but overcame that with stellar performances. We are richer people for having shared the planet with him, however briefly.

[nosebone]

But really? Another rich celeb kills himself with illegal substances....should we care? should we condemn showbiz lifestyles or should we start handing out Darwin Awards?

Drugs aside, this guy was special, we all lost here.

[Progatron]

Amazing how many people think that being rich automatically means you shouldn't have real, human problems. Incredibly short-sighted, but I guess that's life.

[nosebone]

Why? One can't become addicted to pot.

That is untrue.

If your getting high everyday ,your addicted.

Some people can manage , but many can't.

[jkelman]

A true loss; IMO, possibly the greatest actor of his generation, one who didn't/couldn't rely on looks to bolster his career...just incredible breadth, depth and credibility, no matter what role he assumed.

But PeterG, the only thing I can say, as someone with a family member who is bipolar, is that it is not at all uncommon for those with the illness-especially if undiagnosed- to try and "manage" their symptoms with alcohol and drugs. If diagnosed, of course, there are a great many medications that can help, but I think you are sorely mistaken if you think there is no connection between substance abuse and mood affective disorders. No, not all who suffer resort to them, but equally it's not uncommon and, I believe, has been written up as something that does happen.

And, btw, the family member who was abusing got diagnosed, is under the care of a good physician and abuses no longer. So it's possible to change the behavior, too. But first there needs to be acceptance that there is a problem, then diagnosis, then what can be a long road to finding the right treatment as it is definitely not "one size fits all." But if you can get through it, and if you have some support from family and/or friends, there truly can be life at the other end.

So, while I'd not idolize substance abuse, I would feel pity that PSH clearly never got the right treatment. And irrespective of his personal life, the legacy he's left on-screen is more than enough to say that, regardless of how he died, the world has lost a truly great actor, and that's good enough reason to mourn.

[nycsteve]

ronmac: "^^ Then you think alcohol should be illegal, right? ^^ "

No, I didnt say that.

facelift: "Why? One can't become addicted to pot. "

Yes they can.

facelift: ""self destruction" from pot? Your experiences are highly atypical, if they're even true at all. "

Im happy for you. Happy that your life experiance and personal makeup has not included Self destruction" from pot or the witness of said. Just because you personally have not experianced or seen doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Im 56, I grew up in a neighborhood where alchhol and drugs were "the" predominant" form of "recreation" amoung my age group. No exageration, a third of the people I grew up with are dead ,alcohol/drug related, another third are living with the consequences of alcohol/drug use whether currantly clean or using, and the final third escaped either by abstinance or a personal makeup that allowed escape. In that second third are plenty of examples of self destruction from pot. Mentally burnt out habitual potheads in thier 50s with a life missed oportunty and waste behind them. Shells of human beings.Some probably thought they could beat the system by staying away from the hard stuff. Not.
True , if you look at the numbers, there are more victims of alchol addiction than drugs . But then alcohol has been legal and easy to procure. Given easy access to pot and a legal thumbs up, that gap will close quickly. Plus, like it or not ,there is a preception differance out there amoung many. Alcohol on one side, drugs on the other. Opening the door with legalised pot will increase experimentation in other substances.
Pot before legalisation has been easy to get. Whats the motivation to legalise then? For some,its justification of thier life choices. For the state its money, pure and simple. Increase that revenue stream. What a sad ,self serving betrayal by the state, for a more robust revenue stream.

[ronmac]

ronmac: "^^ Then you think alcohol should be illegal, right? ^^ "

No, I didnt say that.

No, I didn't state that you said it. But, you stated that:

I felt at loss the last few weeks as the legalisation of pot gets closer to universal in the US. IMO this trend will only exacerbate the addiction issues. This latest high profile death in an endless parade of such, shows this is deadly serious , and a stamp of approval on drug use in no way helps.

I'm asking if you apply the same rationale to alcohol being legal. There's plenty of evidence that shows pot is less-harmful than alcohol, which is also a drug. You can't have it both ways.

[No Pride]

Heard last night while watching the boob tube and shouted out loud, "NO!" Still can hardly believe it. The guy was a fantastic actor; one of the very best. I've seen him in dozens of films and he was always somewhere between good and amazing.

R.I.P. Phillip Seymour

[progeezer]

Making sweeping generalizations (from either direction) is a fool's errand imo.

I have personally known people who tried heroin (even more than once) and realized the inherent danger and stopped without becoming addicted. Truthfully, it's the only major drug I've never done over my 69 years.

Some people do indeed develop a pot dependency (here I'm guilty as charged), but are able as they grow older to stop all the other frivolous drugs they used to do when young. Many are able to separate their career from their leisure time and not mix the two.

In my own case, I've smoked pot daily for almost 50 years (with 3 or 4 periods of abstention for several months each time over that period). I haven't used the words "stoned" or "high" to describe what pot does for/to me in over 25+ years. Instead, the words "relaxing", "appetite-inducing" & "music-listening aid" would apply here.

I somehow managed to successfully raise 5 children (1 uses pot, 4 don't) and have a 26 year very successful career in public sector management that I retired from in 2009 with numerous accolades at my retirement, including from the Wisconsin Professional Police Assn..

As some of the more astute people in this thread have previously pointed out, some are more prone to addiction & dependency than others, but is is indeed quite possible to be a suit 5 days a week and a stoner when removed from the workplace. It's quite common aamof.

It's almost always the people (like Hoffman) with other psychological/psychiatric problems (depression, paranoia, bi-polar etc.) that go too far.

[nycsteve]

ronmac: "I'm asking if you apply the same rationale to alcohol being legal. There's plenty of evidence that shows pot is less-harmful than alcohol, which is also a drug. You can't have it both ways. "

No , I did not say alcohol should be illegal. Nor do I believe it could be made so. That was tried with less than desirable results. But since the availability of pot even when illegal was easy, why make it legal ? Those who really want it will get it, those who might otherwise steered clear might take advantage of penalty free easy access. My experiance; pot use will lead more to harder drugs than alcohol use will . This is in the segment of the population prone to addiction.
As for straight pot use, theres people who can smoke regularly and function. But most who do are less for it. Pot slows reflexes, thinking ,reasoning, during use and after. Would you want your pilot to be a stoner? Really? Theres plenty of people I know who went for the supposed safe haven of pot , leaving other more obviously dangerous substances behind. Most are locked into a life a fraction as good as it could have been, had they had thier ambition, ability , and focus intact.

[progeezer]

Of course I wouldn't want my pilot to be stoned when he's working, but I could care less what he chooses to do when he's not working up til 8 hours before his flight.

Many are able to separate their career from their leisure time and not mix the two. (copied & pasted from my previous post).

[ronmac]

No , I did not say alcohol should be illegal. Nor do I believe it could be made so. That was tried with less than desirable results. But since the availability of pot even when illegal was easy, why make it legal ? Those who really want it will get it, those who might otherwise steered clear might take advantage of penalty free easy access. My experiance; pot use will lead more to harder drugs than alcohol use will . This is in the segment of the population prone to addiction.
As for straight pot use, theres people who can smoke regularly and function. But most who do are less for it. Pot slows reflexes, thinking ,reasoning, during use and after. Would you want your pilot to be a stoner? Really? Theres plenty of people I know who went for the supposed safe haven of pot , leaving other more obviously dangerous substances behind. Most are locked into a life a fraction as good as it could have been, had they had thier ambition, ability , and focus intact.

Why make it legal?? How about so people who are terminally ill don't have to worry about being busted just because they want to eat a meal?! How about so people who partake in their own living rooms with small amounts don't have to face years in jail, have their families ruined or the go through public humiliation of being caught with a seed on their car? How about because we can tax it's distribution, like we do with alcohol? How about so we can undermine the international trafficking over which people are being murdered every day?? How about because it makes fucking sense?!

If you cannot apply the same rationale to alcohol that you apply to weed, then your argument lacks credibility.

You write as though you've never been a user. Good for you. But, I smoke every day and function perfectly well. I run a business and am highly regarded in my field. And, when I go on vacation for ten days, I leave it behind and don't miss it. When I return, I partake because I find it relaxing.

Maybe those who drink don't go onto hard drugs because alcohol already is a hard drug. Ever consider that?

[nycsteve]

ronmac:"You write as though you've never been a user. Good for you. But, I smoke every day and function perfectly well. I run a business and am highly regarded in my field. And, when I go on vacation for ten days, I leave it behind and don't miss it. When I return, I partake because I find it relaxing."

Exactly the opposite. I wouldnt have the conviction in my opinion if I wasnt. I would be in the third that still lives with the consequences of past use whether clean or using.
Terminally ill should have legal access.
Years in jail for a seed in thier car??????????????????? Where the hell do you live??????? What decade?/? Enforcement and penalty for marijuana is less than a speeding ticket. Dont be ridiculous.
Tax revenue, penny wise pound foolish.
People being murdered; that will happen with or without legalization. You'll still have dope,coke ,E ,K, and the rest of it to kill for.
Point your finger all you want at legal alcohol, it doesnt negate the argument against pot legalization. Using that rational then if pot can be legal, lets include crack, coke,dope , pain killers speed and public masturbation. Tax it all and use the money for treatment .
If you can smoke with percieved impunity, well good for you. Sounds to me your more concerned with the ease of the continuation of your life choices than the terminally ill and the generation thrown under the bus so you can have a legal high . Which you can handle while still being highly regarded. If you can do it then everyone should I guess.

[ronmac]

Sounds to me your more concerned with the ease of the continuation of your life choices than the terminally ill and the generation thrown under the bus so you can have a legal high

Listen pal, I just buried one of my best friends after a two-year battle with cancer. If it wasn't for me and several other friends risking jail time by delivering some smoke to him so he could eat, he would have lasted one year less. So, don't give me that shit about only being concerned with my lifestyle. This is about stupid laws, plain and simple! Legalize it, regulate it and let's move on. Nobody here is endorsing giving children access to it, either.

Yes, the one seed statement was a last-second edit and clearly hyperbolic. Take away the jail time portion and the rest still stands.

[davis]

^ mj was made illegal after a parade of propaganda/scare-campaign tactics about 85 years ago. Hemp can grow anywhere and be used for so many things, it's a crime to not be able to use it. <--that from an excellent/informative documentary about the history of marijuana I really wish I could remember the name of.

[JIF]

Amazing how many people think that being rich automatically means you shouldn't have real, human problems. Incredibly short-sighted, but I guess that's life.

For once, you and I agree. I was talking with my dad on the phone last week, and Michael Hutchins came up. My dad made some sort of comment that Michael was rich and famous, so he had no reason to kill himself. To him, I guess all rich people are suppose to be happy.

[Duncan Glenday]

2 threads merged...

[Facelift]

ronmac: "I'm asking if you apply the same rationale to alcohol being legal. There's plenty of evidence that shows pot is less-harmful than alcohol, which is also a drug. You can't have it both ways. "

No , I did not say alcohol should be illegal. Nor do I believe it could be made so. That was tried with less than desirable results. But since the availability of pot even when illegal was easy, why make it legal ? Those who really want it will get it, those who might otherwise steered clear might take advantage of penalty free easy access. My experiance; pot use will lead more to harder drugs than alcohol use will . This is in the segment of the population prone to addiction.

#1: Nobody is addicted to pot.

#2: Why make it legal? If for nothing else, it would end the batshit insanity of putting people through the criminal justice system who have done nothing to harm the person or property of another person - the very foundation upon which the US criminal justice system is based. You're going to make criminals out of people who, in the worst of circumstances, are merely weak? These are the people who will be least "helped" by going to jail. Or of people who, under the best of circumstances, take drugs to enhance their life experience and are able to do so with zero negative repercussions whatsoever? Makes a lot of sense to potentially ruin their lives of high-functioning, contributing members of society by making them criminals.

If forced to choose between the two "wrongs" of the government deriving tax revenues from drugs, or putting people who choose to use certain substances through the criminal justice system, I don't know how it's possible to not pick the former.

[notallwhowander]

I don't understand the compulsion to get on an anti-drug high-horse here. Addiction is a disease, a mental disorder. Those enthralled to it aren't in their right minds. Usually this is well before pushing a needle into one's arm. To know a mind is/was so trapped by bad chemistry elicits pity from me, and a fair amount of creeped-out revulsion. That PSH had an obvious brilliance too only heightens it. But wearing such condescension as a badge seems like a real dick move. A real person no longer shares air with us tonight. One could argue that addicts do make a choice at some point, but then so do soldiers, who can die just as pointlessly with more ruinous consequences. Failing to mourn the dead means failing in one's own humanity, IMO.

[jkelman]

True , if you look at the numbers, there are more victims of alchol addiction than drugs . But then alcohol has been legal and easy to procure. Given easy access to pot and a legal thumbs up, that gap will close quickly. Plus, like it or not ,there is a preception differance out there amoung many. Alcohol on one side, drugs on the other. Opening the door with legalised pot will increase experimentation in other substances.
Pot before legalisation has been easy to get. Whats the motivation to legalise then? For some,its justification of thier life choices. For the state its money, pure and simple. Increase that revenue stream. What a sad ,self serving betrayal by the state, for a more robust revenue stream.

Sorry, Steve, but your post read like the stereotypical (and, for most who use it, untrue) idea of pot as a gateway drug to the harder stuff. I'm not advocating substance abuse, but I will say that pot, especially if ingested using a vaporizer rather than smoking a joint or pipe, is a far more benign drug than alcohol, from the perspective of physiological damage.

Yes, legalizing pot would mean more income for the government (but why not? I'd rather it went to them than gangs or organized crime; heck, they might even be able to put that money to good use, like health care). I see nothing but positives, because like it or not, one way or another, folks who want to smoke it will smoke it. Putting it under federal or state control would also help control what goes into it. The pot of today is much different from the lot of my growing up years in the '70s. It has shit in it that was not in pot back in the day, and if you cannot be sure what you are getting, then it is, indeed, dangerous.

But if pot is to be kept illegal, what is the justification for keeping alcohol legal? I do neither (suffer from migraines, so can't drink and the pot of today I just don't trust, but probably wouldn't smoke it anyway, as it just doesn't hold any interest).

I'll also raise the issue of legalizing marijuana for medicinal purposes. A family member who suffers from chronic fatigue syndrome - something for which there is no treatment at present so it's about symptom management more than anything else - was approved for medicinal marijuana a few months back (in Canada). Prior to that, she was experiencing pain that was largely unmanageable (and I'm talking use of heavy doses of prescription narcotics, amongst other things), had lost a dangerous amount of weight due to constant nausea to the extent that while she wasn't an anorexic (when she wasn't nauseous, she ate; the problem was she was nauseous almost all the time) she was clinically so based upon her weight. The first day she used the vaporizer to inhale what is not smoke but more heated oils - and the approval for the medicinal marijuana was to see if it would help the nausea so she could eat, as her weight was getting dangerously low - she was immediately hungry and, for the first time in months, ate a proper and healthy meal, and continues to do so. Even more encouraging was hearing that she was also suddenly pain free! An unexpected side benefit, but what that means is she still has CFS, but now that the symptoms other the fatigue are being managed, she is able to have a lot more of a life than she has for the past nine years, when she first became ill. Please tell me that alcohol has such significant potential medicinal benefits (and there's a reason medicinal,marijuana is prescribed, in liberal-thinking countries for cancer patients who are nauseous from treatments, to help their appetites also).

I see no positive benefits in alcohol but have seen resounding benefits with medicinal marijuana. And yes, there will be those who abuse pot just as there are people who abuse alcohol. But America's "war on drugs" has been a complete failure for decades, so perhaps it's time to think of alternatives, and legalizing pot is absolutely not going to create a sudden upsurge in habitual pot use, as those who want to do that already are. And irrespective of overall legalization, at the very least it has been proven as a significant medicinal help for people with certain conditions, and should be legalized for that use, the sooner the better.

Also, if you look at countries like The Netherlands, where you can smoke hash/pot in hash bars, it sure doesn't look like it's acting as a gateway drug to the harder stuff, or creating a nation of potheads. It is, in fact, no more dangerous (in many ways, less so - you rarely hear of pot-fueled men beating their wives,but you sure do hear of alcohol fueled men doing so) than alcohol.

You clearly object to substance abuse, and I'm with you there. But your feelings about drugs, especially pot, are with all,due respect, ill-informed and sadly stereotypical. If the war on drugs is doing nothing in your country but filling up more and more prisons, perhaps it's time for some out of the box thinking, not the same old same old, no?