Genesis - Seconds Out

[Splicer]

Question for Genesis bootleg collectors:

Is there a particular live version of "Supper's Ready" from the Gabriel era where the drums really stand out? I've always loved Collins' drumming during "Apocalypse" -- the pattern that he just keeps adding to and adding to.

[Progatron]

Question for Genesis bootleg collectors:

Is there a particular live version of "Supper's Ready" from the Gabriel era where the drums really stand out? I've always loved Collins' drumming during "Apocalypse" -- the pattern that he just keeps adding to and adding to.

That's a rather specific question but I'll think about it!

Any live Genesis collector, particularly the PG era, should own the Paul Russell book Play Me My Song: A Live Guide 1969 To 1975. I only wish it had always been around, as I could have really used it in my early tape-trading days when I was so green to the whole thing. Shame it doesn't go to '80, since all those tours were excellent as well and highly worth collecting.

[Rufus]

Hackett might be low at times, but if you consider Seconds Out a "poor mix," you face one of two issues:

1. You need a new stereo.
2. You need new ears.



There is no third possibility.

It's without doubt the worst mixed album from that era of any live album I've heard!

The third possibility is your deluded!

[Progatron]

LOL are you guys kidding? It sounds fantastic. Too good, really.

[wilcox660]

All I have is love for this album. Is it perfect? Is anything perfect? I love listening to it. Argue like fools if you must. Me? I'm just a fat boy that loves me some S.O.

[JIF]

It's without doubt the worst mixed album from that era of any live album I've heard!

The third possibility is your deluded!

Rufus, It's hard to trust your word on this because we all know how you feel about Phil Collins. I would say that the lack of W&W material on this live album is in relation to how people perceive it. Most reviews(including the one on Vintage Prog) don't rate it very high. Also, I think that the comment about mixing Steve out of Seconds Out is just British humor(at least, according to the old Genesis website).

[mellotron storm]

This!!! (though I loved the drums, they never gave me the envy to be a drummer...

nd I'm happy it features a lot of ToTT and much fewer of W&W

I'm with Hugues on this one and agree with Jeff about the sound quality. Time to break it out for a spin, it's been a while.

[JeffCarney]

Rufus, It's hard to trust your word on this because we all know how you feel about Phil Collins.

Since I don't tend to read any of those threads, I actually forgot what I was dealing with.

This surely explains his position. Lesson learned.

Note to self: "Rufus" commenting on Genesis/Phil Collins is always skipped.

[JIF]

Since I don't tend to read any of those threads, I actually forgot what I was dealing with.

This surely explains his position. Lesson learned.

Note to self: "Rufus" commenting on Genesis/Phil Collins is always skipped.

Hence, the Mel Collins Ruined Genesis thread.

[Tangram]

I also buy that Banks was a little miffed at Hackett leaving the band... Indeed, they'd fucked up a bit by frustrating Steve with almost no credits on TOTT, so when Steve voiced his opinion, Tony gave him plenty of place in W&W to accomodate him... Apparently, it wasn't enough for Hackett and left anyway.... Obviously (to me anyway) Banks must've resented his departure, and little doubt that this downmix was a "low blow" vengeance.

Banks was pissed when Hackett was making a solo album instead of helping save the band in the early stages of ATOTT. In regards to SH being mixed low, I wouldn't call it vindictive, just a matter of the guitarist not being around to fight for his part. Even if he stayed, I'm not sure SH had the pull to get the balance changed.

I'm with the crowd that never cared for the production on this album. Not being technical, I always felt the music was trapped in the speakers. Loved the material but it could have used another W&W track. There are plenty of good ones to chose from. I like PCs singing and the playing is no problem either.

[Trane]

Yes, the band's foundation was more in jeopardy, but that had nothing to do with the lineup changes, and everything to do with Collins' own troubles (being in Brand X was of no consequence). As for "Vancouver", that song was written and recorded in late '77 during the ATTWT sessions. Phil's wife did not take off to Vancouver with the kids until sometime towards the end of the '78 world tour (Phil recounts the story of spending all his time drunk and in a depressed state, particularly in Japan around December during the final days of the tour). I've always found that timeline strange. Phil flew out to live there but could not sort out the marriage and returned home to the UK, where he not only worked with Brand X but began writing and demoing Face Value since Tony and Mike were both busy with their respective solo albums.

The band have always been quite open and candid about the fact that when PG left, they weren't sure how they'd manage without him. They knew they had the chops and the writing abilities, but how would the public see the band without such a frontman? When Hackett left, Banks says "We really didn't think twice about this one". I don't see that as a slight against Steve, just a bit of honesty..

yeah, I was never too sure about that chronology, because for decades, I thought Vancouver was recorded as an afterthought of ATTWT... It's only in the last year that I learned that it dated from the ATTWT sessions

But they were 100% sure they would go on, though... Wheras when Phil was having trouble, I'm not so positive this was down to 80% certainty

LOL are you guys kidding? It sounds fantastic. Too good, really.

That's what I meant with my alusion to Unleashed in the Studios from Judas Priest....

Banks was pissed when Hackett was making a solo album instead of helping save the band in the early stages of ATOTT. In regards to SH being mixed low, I wouldn't call it vindictive, just a matter of the guitarist not being around to fight for his part. Even if he stayed, I'm not sure SH had the pull to get the balance changed..

Interesting PoVs. So you'd think that Steve's Voyage album left him without more compositions ready to be used (in Banks' ears and eyes) in ToTT??
you're probably right that Steve wouldn't have had the power to change much in SO's mix...

===============

I may not be making friends with the following PoVs, but let's give it a try: Though we all love Banks' role in Genesis, I think that we shouldn't overlook that he was calling the chops once Gabe left. At leazst nothing was decided in Genesis if Tony didn't agree with it. Of course Rutherford was always there to second him, but the whole ambiance was certainly quaint and somewhat childish immaturity, because of the Charterhouse background. There was some sort of childish pettyness between them and this seeped through towards the rest of the band (the non-Charterhouse guys)... I remember reading somewhere that Collins and Hackett would be flabbergasted and looked at each other in bewilderment when Mike, Tony and Peter would still argue about breaking or stealing a ruler in Charterhouse. Phil and Steve were still "outsiders" at Lamb time, and with Phil steeping up to the microphone, it certainly did give him more weight to Tony's eyes - though Phil was not much a songwriter at the time (or at least not prolific). Apparently Steve was definitely passing to second or third gear in that regard (songwriting), and Tony might have seen that more as a threat to his own share (or Mike's, FTM >> hence the double length of the atrocious YOSW on W&W to stop Steve from getting even more space on that album)...

And since Tony's efforts to accomodate Steve on W&W were not enough for Steve, Banks really started to blow a fuse towards him. Which is probably why Steve is the last consulted member in the classic Genesis album decisions (when he is, that is) and never really cionsidered when reunion talks are mentioned (and was not fully integrated for the Miltin Keynes stuff in the mid-80's reunion)... And i can imagine that Banks is somewhat selfishly relishing the fact that Hackett is making such an obsession of the music of that era, and probably sees a regret of Steve leaving the band.

[Splicer]

I wish there was a film of a full concert from the 76-77 tours rather than just bits and pieces. Then again, although I'm happy with what there is of the Gabriel era (Belgium 72 and Shepperton 73), I wish they weren't marred by the kind of camera work and direction that infested this era of rock. I know the techs don't really care but if someone is playing a guitar solo, showing the keyboardist or lead singer shaking a tambourine makes no sense.

[Splicer]

And since Tony's efforts to accomodate Steve on W&W were not enough for Steve, Banks really started to blow a fuse towards him. Which is probably why Steve is the last consulted member in the classic Genesis album decisions (when he is, that is) and never really cionsidered when reunion talks are mentioned (and was not fully integrated for the Miltin Keynes stuff in the mid-80's reunion)... And i can imagine that Banks is somewhat selfishly relishing the fact that Hackett is making such an obsession of the music of that era, and probably sees a regret of Steve leaving the band.

I think there is something being left out here. Given enough time I can find citations for you but just want to get this out now. If you read between many of the lines during the interviews about Lamb, TOTT and W&W, there is a distinct impression that Steve had a drinking problem. I can see the beginnings of the sourness towards Hackett when he smashed the glass in his hand and needing surgery which delayed the Lamb tour. The other members of the band can't have been thrilled about that. Add to that Steve's rather odd self-centered detachment during these few years. Gabriel leaves. The band is trying to make a fresh start and this is the time he decides doing a solo album is more important? Again, can't have sat well with, especially, Tony and Mike. Wind and Wuthering is the odd one for me. Steve has a lot of space on that record but for some reason it isn't enough. Was "Please Don't Tough" that important enough to drive him away?

My personal feeling, gathered from all I've read, tells me that Steve wasn't just a victim of Tony's power plays or a simple aggrieved party. I think he exacerbated the issue with his own set of emotional problems.

[Trane]

I think there is something being left out here. Given enough time I can't find citations for you but just want to get this out now. If you read between many of the lines during the interviews about Lamb, TOTT and W&W, there is a distinct impression that Steve had a drinking problem. I can see the beginnings of the sourness towards Hackett when he smashed the glass in his hand and needing surgery which delayed the Lamb tour. The other members of the band can't have been thrilled about that. Add to that Steve's rather odd self-centered detachment during these few years. Gabriel leaves. The band is trying to make a fresh start and this is the time he decides doing a solo album is more important? Again, can't have sat well with, especially, Tony and Mike. Wind and Wuthering is the odd one for me. Steve has a lot of space on that record but for some reason it isn't enough. Was "Please Don't Tough" that important enough to drive him away?

My personal feeling, gathered from all I've read, tells me that Steve wasn't just a victim of Tony's power plays or a simple aggrieved party. I think he exacerbated the issue with his own set of emotional problems.

interesting points, though it's the first time I hear of a "drinking problem".... But there might be something to it... Maybe because drinking was one way for Steve to beat his stage shyness via alcohol disinhibition (first seated behind huge glasses and beard to finally play out front clean-shaven). Remember that in those early concerts, only Peter (and Mike sometimes) played standing up... by the time of SO, only Tony sat - Chester as well of course.

Maybe W&W came too late for Steve... But indeed, PDT is definitely not good enough a reason (at least to my eyes) for leaving... Though Spectral Morning is

[Rand Kelly]

I never understood Phil an Mike bitching about Steve doing Voyage Of The Acolyte. I mean they play on the damn thing. lol

[Polska]

I love it because it sounds like a live album. The crowd is enthusiastic, and listening to it sounds like a concert to me. I'm willing to set aside any minor quibbles of set list or mix issues for that experience.

[Brian Griffin]

I played the raw soundboard from Southampton 77 yesterday

I prefer that sort of "straight from the desk" sound most times, and I think he performances are way more energetic

BG

[Koreabruce]

interesting points, though it's the first time I hear of a "drinking problem".... But there might be something to it... Maybe because drinking was one way for Steve to beat his stage shyness via alcohol disinhibition (first seated behind huge glasses and beard to finally play out front clean-shaven). Remember that in those early concerts, only Peter (and Mike sometimes) played standing up... by the time of SO, only Tony sat - Chester as well of course.

Maybe W&W came too late for Steve... But indeed, PDT is definitely not good enough a reason (at least to my eyes) for leaving... Though Spectral Morning is

I get the sense that Steve was/is a pretty sensitive person, though it was probably more intense back when he was in the band. Mike Rutherford mentions Steve's very reserved nature in his new book. My personal take is that he must've been bottling up a lot of emotions; he largely kept to himself and wasn't known as someone who would try to create waves. Also, Steve's first marriage had broken up during the time they were writing TLLDOB, which I think at least partially explains his drinking. In the "I Know What I Like" book, he said himself that he felt very bad about the divorce since there was a child involved.

[mx20]

Seconds Out is nice live album to hold in your hands; the artwork, the mysterious live shots, the center labels— all stuff that helps the home listener digest the fact that there's a "bloke next door" on the mic instead of a "mysterious traveler" (Phil's words).

The SO mix does leave something to be desired. The "Genesis Live" LP from 1973 is my absolute favorite Genesis album (and I love most of them) because it's f%€£îñᏩ
"brutal;" I love the fullness of the instruments & the occassional imperfections.
SO, on the other hand, is a sanitized portrayal of the "same" band some four years later. The intimacy is lost, the instruments sound thin & far away. Maybe that's because the band had graduated to much larger venues by that time?

I do think SO is a rare instance of the 21st century Nick Davis remix being better than the original.

The song selection is also at fault. Only the Gabriel-era songs keep me coming back to SO. "Firth" & "Cinema" are particularly rewarding.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a pretty album but it's got no guts.

FWIW, I really enjoy Three Sides Live a lot more.

[Progatron]

Mike Rutherford mentions Steve's very reserved nature in his new book.

How is that book anyway?

[Koreabruce]

It's great! Lots of insight, thought there's plenty of stuff you've heard before. I got it as a Kindle-for-PC download and read it yesterday afternoon. It's very well-written and juxtaposes Mike's life with that of his dad, who was a naval officer. Clearly, he has a ton of respect for Captain Rutherford. I'll post some bits I thought were of particular interest tomorrow.

[Progatron]

It's great! Lots of insight, thought there's plenty of stuff you've heard before. I got it as a Kindle-for-PC download and read it yesterday afternoon. It's very well-written and juxtaposes Mike's life with that of his dad, who was a naval officer. Clearly, he has a ton of respect for Captain Rutherford. I'll post some bits I thought were of particular interest tomorrow.

Yeah, I see I can have it sent straight to my phone for $9.99. I did that once before with a Jethro Tull interview book and it was quite convenient. I may do that with this one too, although I'm preparing myself to read a lot of expressions such as "Looking back" and "We were intense young men" and "That song was a bit busy".

[Koreabruce]

Well, he only uses the phrase "a bit busy" in his somewhat reserved but nonetheless disparaging way when referring to several album COVERS such as Nursery Cryme & Foxtrot. I agree with the latter but not the former; the extra detail suits the Victorian vibe perfectly. You do get to hear about some drug use. Mike liked his weed, apparently, and he got busted with it a few times. He mentions a little coke and one occasion when he and Phil scored some morphine in Italy. They were in a car sightseeing with Banks, I believe, and apparently Tony turned around, saw what they were doing, raised and eyebrow, and then didn't bother with them. Mike says Tony & Peter didn't really partake and that Peter wasn't one who could hold his alcohol, either. Phil Collins, on the other hand...

Mike also said this about Yes: "Genesis often got lumped together with Yes, but they were more about virtuoso playing than we were. One night we all went to see them at Usher Hall in Edinburgh - they were brilliant technically but the music didn't move me. Jon Anderson's lyrics sounded good but weren't really about anything. Yes wouldn't touch humor with a barge pole, whereas we always did have a sense of fun."

[Rufus]

The SO mix does leave something to be desired. The "Genesis Live" LP from 1973 is my absolute favorite Genesis album (and I love most of them) because it's f%€£îñᏩ
"brutal;" I love the fullness of the instruments & the occassional imperfections.
SO, on the other hand, is a sanitized portrayal of the "same" band some four years later. The intimacy is lost, the instruments sound thin & far away. Maybe that's because the band had graduated to much larger venues by that time?

I do think SO is a rare instance of the 21st century Nick Davis remix being better than the original.

The song selection is also at fault. Only the Gabriel-era songs keep me coming back to SO. "Firth" & "Cinema" are particularly rewarding.

Agreed! Of course there's nothing wrong with the playing or the songs but for a live album it just sounds 'lifeless', though thats not the bands fault as far as I know?
Although didnt Banks have something to do with Steve being low in the mix?

[Rufus]

Mike also said this about Yes: "Genesis often got lumped together with Yes, but they were more about virtuoso playing than we were. One night we all went to see them at Usher Hall in Edinburgh - they were brilliant technically but the music didn't move me. Jon Anderson's lyrics sounded good but weren't really about anything. Yes wouldn't touch humor with a barge pole, whereas we always did have a sense of fun."[/QUOTE]

I dont understand this comment. From footage i've seen of Genesis they look the most miserable gits i've ever seen! They never looked like they were enjoying themselves! To this day I dont think ive ever seen Banks or Rutherford smile, even in interviews?