Fantasy of working with our "Prog Heroes" or what we expect from them - Squids POV

[Squids]

I'm creating a new thread if anyone is interested in talking further about this subject, at least starting out with my personal take on it. It came up in the Sound of Contact thread about Simon, Matt and I parting ways and them continuing SOC while I pursue other projects, mainly my own solo album and Sonic Elements, a revolving door of Progness that includes guests like Keith Emerson, Steve Hackett, Francis Dunnery and others singing or playing guitar along with me on keys and drummers like Neil Peart or Nick Mason's drum grooves we sampled for my company Sonic Reality (that makes music software for musicians).


Here was the question from that thread and my answer:

Maybe the Wakeman, Anderson, Rabin band should be the Squids, Anderson, and Rabin instead?

Even though you're probably saying that in jest, I would take it seriously (apart from my nickname being part of it). A project like that would be fun, especially if they listened to someone new and objective. One of the challenges in working with already established artists is getting everyone to approach a project with an open mind when it comes to creativity or direction outside of their normal trusted sources such as themselves and others they've already worked with or that have huge success under their belt. Ironically the band Yes DID do that and took a chance with both Trevors (Rabin and Horn) and the results, although very different than the Yes that had been around in the 70s, were impressive to say the least. 90125 in particular I thought was a very innovative and creative re-approach giving the band another sound that also worked well (and consequently also did well commercially without losing all "muso" quality). If I worked with any of those guys and got the same trust the Trevors did then that would be amazing. (Not saying that's something I expect... who the f--k am I? But any of us could fantasize about something like this.. and some friends my age that I've known for years have actually had the chance to do this!). If not and I was just a keyboard player playing their songs and old Yes stuff that would OF COURSE be fun too although perhaps more of just a novelty and a cool gig to talk about in reality. Personally I'd rather be part of shaping something to be as great as one could imagine it being. That's what I feel I was able to accomplish in my creative role with SOC on Dimensionaut.

As for our "prog heroes", ironically I think many of us CAN imagine an AMAZING Wakeman, Anderson, Rabin album or a new Yes album or any number of legendary artists' albums being fantastic. But how many people expect that's what they'll put out? Do we expect it be something as good or better than their best albums before? If not then why? In my opinion, it has to do with being in the zone and on your game, reaching for the best you can in every area of the writing, performance and production. Some new blood with an objective POV can be good for that.

That was my POV and about me but feel free to take the subject elsewhere or you can ask me anything OT from that SOC thread, particularly if it has to do with working with our "Prog Heroes" perhaps would keep it on topic here. Or just talk about them instead which is maybe more interesting... not that we need another Yes thread in disguise!!!! Haha.

Thanks for reading my tale of topographic Squids banter.

[Firth]

Shocked. More disappointment after the Progday cancellation. Any chance you guys will play together at Rosfest?

[Squids]

Shocked. More disappointment after the Progday cancellation. Any chance you guys will play together at Rosfest?

As far as I know Simon and the guys are still planning on playing all of the gigs listed on the website, which includes Rosfest. Since I'm not longer in the band I will not be attending unfortunately. I was looking forward to playing at Rosfest and Progday. Maybe another time.

[trurl]

Oh damn dude! You're not gonna be on The Cruise!

[JIF]

I'm creating a new thread if anyone is interested in talking further about this subject, at least starting out with my personal take on it. It came up in the Sound of Contact thread about Simon, Matt and I parting ways and them continuing SOC while I pursue other projects, mainly my own solo album and Sonic Elements, a revolving door of Progness that includes guests like Keith Emerson, Steve Hackett, Francis Dunnery, Mike Keneally, Billy Sherwood, Matt Dorsey, Randy McStine, John Wesley, Rik Emmett, David Longdon, Steve Rothery and others singing or playing guitar along with me on keys and drummers like Terry Bozzio, Billy Cobham, Nick D'Virgilio, Neil Peart or Nick Mason's drum grooves we sampled for my company Sonic Reality (that makes music software for musicians).


Here was the question from that thread and my answer:




Even though you're probably saying that in jest, I would take it seriously (apart from my nickname being part of it). A project like that would be fun, especially if they listened to someone new and objective. One of the challenges in working with already established artists is getting everyone to approach a project with an open mind when it comes to creativity or direction outside of their normal trusted sources such as themselves and others they've already worked with or that have huge success under their belt. Ironically the band Yes DID do that and took a chance with both Trevors (Rabin and Horn) and the results, although very different than the Yes that had been around in the 70s, were impressive to say the least. 90125 in particular I thought was a very innovative and creative re-approach giving the band another sound that also worked well (and consequently also did well commercially without losing all "muso" quality). If I worked with any of those guys and got the same trust the Trevors did then that would be amazing. (Not saying that's something I expect... who the f--k am I? But any of us could fantasize about something like this.. and some friends my age that I've known for years have actually had the chance to do this!). If not and I was just a keyboard player playing their songs and old Yes stuff that would OF COURSE be fun too although perhaps more of just a novelty and a cool gig to talk about in reality. Personally I'd rather be part of shaping something to be as great as one could imagine it being. That's what I feel I was able to accomplish in my creative role with SOC on Dimensionaut.

As for our "prog heroes", ironically I think many of us CAN imagine an AMAZING Wakeman, Anderson, Rabin album or a new Yes album or any number of legendary artists' albums being fantastic. But how many people expect that's what they'll put out? Do we expect it be something as good or better than their best albums before? If not then why? In my opinion, it has to do with being in the zone and on your game, reaching for the best you can in every area of the writing, performance and production. Some new blood with an objective POV can be good for that. I think Nick Raskulinecz does well with Rush in that way as a producer. He's a true fan and they trust his objective POV. Although he doesn't write with them and that's where things can really be shaped... and that is a rare open door and perhaps the hardest trust to earn. I have a long way to go before I expect that from anyone that's already established as an artist. I got lucky with SOC that they were open to so much of my material and ideas on everything. I think it turned out well too! It's not perfect but I'm proud of the album. But, anyway, that's what I like to do. I like to doctor a song in any area it needs improvement (according to my tastes) or write songs whether in collaboration or on my own. It'd be fun to do it with any of my childhood music heroes but if not then I'll just do that with any next generation musicians that are open in that way.

That was my POV and about me but feel free to take the subject elsewhere or you can ask me anything OT from that SOC thread, particularly if it has to do with working with our "Prog Heroes" perhaps would keep it on topic here. Or just talk about them instead which is maybe more interesting... not that we need another Yes thread in disguise!!!! Haha.

Thanks for reading my tale of topographic Squids banter.

Dave, I was being serious. You're a cool dude. So, I'm sure that any project that you have your hands on will be prog gold.

[Squids]

Oh damn dude! You're not gonna be on The Cruise!

Yeah I know. Sucks. I was actually really looking forward to that and seeing everybody but... you can't have your prog cake and eat it too (whatever that means!). But, it does leave out of Miami so if you and Steve or any of you guys want to grab a beer before we can do a little PE prog hang. I'm going to the Hackett gig that's here just before the cruise. Might jump up on stage too! Haha. No... I did get to do that and it was one of the craziest things I think I ever did. Sitting in on Supper's Ready with no rehearsal. Nuts.

I WAS hoping to lounge on the pool deck with Yes though. Now I'll never know what Chris Squire looks like in a thong speedo. But you guys will have to give me a full report! Swimming with stingrays and Hackett... damn.

[trurl]

By all means... we shall get together!

[Firth]

How did the work with Dave Longdon go this week.

I just can't imagine how SOC-Squids will cover SOC+Squids without resorting to samples or a high data rate internet connection to Squids. Will you be downloaded to the show

[Squids]

How did the work with Dave Longdon go this week.

I just can't imagine how SOC-Squids will cover SOC+Squids without resorting to samples or a high data rate internet connection to Squids. Will you be downloaded to the show

I sent David the tracks and now he'll do his thing in his studio. Not the same as being in the same place but that's how it is sometimes. Often times I'm working on tunes with different people around the world and it goes back and forth. I'm working on some other tunes now until I hear what he's done.

As for the other thing, well... I am sure it will be interesting to hear how they do it. Wish I could be there to see it!

[fiberman]

Hi Dave, how is the Lamb (It?) remake coming along?

[Splicer]

Dave:

What you illustrate in your post is the reason I was sorely disappointed when Igor Khoroshev was tossed out of Yes. I understand that his issues, especially with drinking, caused this to happen. Sometimes we're our own worst enemies. However, it doesn't stop me wondering what another album by the Yes that created The Ladder might have been like. I liked that album quite a bit; "Homeland" is a song I still listen to quite often. The rest of the album is pretty decent as well. Khoroshev certainly had the chops to play the material and do it very convincingly. I wish he had not imploded or that they'd given him a second chance. I think more of his ideas in the group would have been a welcome addition to subsequent albums.

My two cents.

[Squids]

Dave:

What you illustrate in your post is the reason I was sorely disappointed when Igor Khoroshev was tossed out of Yes. I understand that his issues, especially with drinking, caused this to happen. Sometimes we're our own worst enemies. However, it doesn't stop me wondering what another album by the Yes that created The Ladder might have been like. I liked that album quite a bit; "Homeland" is a song I still listen to quite often. The rest of the album is pretty decent as well. Khoroshev certainly had the chops to play the material and do it very convincingly. I wish he had not imploded or that they'd given him a second chance. I think more of his ideas in the group would have been a welcome addition to subsequent albums.

My two cents.

It's a fragile situation. Even the lead singer isn't in the band anymore.

[Squids]

Hi Dave, how is the Lamb (It?) remake coming along?

That's coming along great! Thanks. Got some new drum tracks from Martin Levac to supplement NDV's. Lee Pomeroy from It Bites & Hackett's band is going to overdub some stuff and then Francis just has to sing 4 more tunes and we'll be done with the tracking (I think... still might get more creative with the segues). We'll have it out after the Floyd and Rush tributes. I'm actually not a huge fan of tribute albums ironically but if something is done with a certain artistic sensibility and serves the song in a genuine way then that's different. At least for my tastes. But, I'm also balancing it with a lot of original tunes on new projects. One of them is a proggy space opera with a cool female singer. That's later in the year. A lot of things to release in 2014! It'll be a good year despite some of the unfortunate changes in plans.

[bondegezou]

The most important thing I've learnt from 20+ years of talking about prog online is that musicians are people. It's very easy as a fan to fantasise about some combo of musicians -- as Squids brought it up, say Anderson/Rabin/Kerzner -- because you think the music of Anderson, the music of Rabin and the music of Kerzner would combine well (and, indeed, I think it would too).

But the music isn't enough. You don't get to be a successful musician simply through being good at making music: you need persistence, the right attitude, social skills etc. And, equally, bands rely on interpersonal dynamics: does person X and person Y work well (enough) together, not just does person X's music work well with person Y's music.

Splicer mentioned Igor Khoroshev. That's a good example where someone's non-musical behaviour changed the course of his relationship with a band. But there are many, many other examples. To take Yes, as a kind of specialist subject for me, nearly all the personnel changes are about relationships rather than about the music.

Henry

[Squids]

The most important thing I've learnt from 20+ years of talking about prog online is that musicians are people. It's very easy as a fan to fantasise about some combo of musicians -- as Squids brought it up, say Anderson/Rabin/Kerzner -- because you think the music of Anderson, the music of Rabin and the music of Kerzner would combine well (and, indeed, I think it would too).

But the music isn't enough. You don't get to be a successful musician simply through being good at making music: you need persistence, the right attitude, social skills etc. And, equally, bands rely on interpersonal dynamics: does person X and person Y work well (enough) together, not just does person X's music work well with person Y's music.

Splicer mentioned Igor Khoroshev. That's a good example where someone's non-musical behaviour changed the course of his relationship with a band. But there are many, many other examples. To take Yes, as a kind of specialist subject for me, nearly all the personnel changes are about relationships rather than about the music.

Henry

Interesting points Henry. That's kind of what I was hoping this thread word morph into (instead of just being about me... even though that's where it started in the migration from another thread).

I remember when GTR was announced I thought that would be the ultimate prog guitar album. It had two of my absolute favorite guitarists in it! How could it not? But I had no idea they were gonna have Howard Jones' cousin singing lead on a bunch of pop tunes instead. (haha... I haven't listened to it since but that was my impression of it at the time. I have to say otherwise Hackett has delivered some great guitar albums and prog over the years and I wonder what he thinks of GTR now.)

Also, the original idea of the XYZ band with ex-Yes and Zeppelin was intriguing to me as a kid. Then Asia came along and I bought that instead. I thought that first album was good... but I have to admit I wanted more "prog" in the follow up albums. But the XYZ band seemed promising... yet I am sure it had a dose of what you're talking about Henry.

Then there was that possible Hodgson/Rabin collaboration. I'd love to hear what they did. I imagined that being AWESOME. Like a SUPER Supertramp meets 90125ish Yes. I am sure a lot of people did. I even got to see the two of them at a NAMM show roaming around looking at gear. I thought for sure that was coming but... nope. Not sure why except that it isn't always as easy as it seems to just combine this person with that person and as I said before that's especially true when artists are already established. The egos in the music industry are also way out of control most of the time. A lot of insecurity (and I'm not saying I'm an exception to that either... except that I am at least aware of it and try to burp my way down after taking too many Willy Wonka Fizzy Lifting Drinks! haha. It's only knock and knowall anyway! ).

So a lot of "super group" combinations are great in theory but in reality... it's a toss up. Maybe even more of a challenge that it already is to get ANY group of people to create together let alone stick together for any length of time. I think that whatever you do there has to be a unified vision in the work whether that's just mainly from one person the others trust or from a group of people on the same page mentally and artistically including sharing the same level of true confidence and a sense of humility... enough to work together and let the best of each person shine. My 2 cents worth on that.

[bondegezou]

It's interesting that Squire and Rabin decided to start working together (in what became Cinema and then Yes) because they got on really well. Squire had previously rejected the suggestion from his record company he should work with Rabin having been played Rabin's demos, but when they met, they hit it off. Indeed, that first jam session was terrible musically, Squire has said. Chemistry between people matters.

And, likewise, suggestions Moraz or (before his death last year) Banks could re-join Yes, I've dismissed those out of hand because I don't think the personalities are right, however interesting the music might be.

Henry

[Squids]

And, likewise, suggestions Moraz or (before his death last year) Banks could re-join Yes, I've dismissed those out of hand because I don't think the personalities are right, however interesting the music might be.

One of the more bizarre Prog stories I've got are reuniting Patrick Moraz with Jon Anderson for the first time since I guess Relayer mid-70s time. But, sometimes things stay together long enough to make a great album like Relayer which then has its own life forever. So many other combinations of musicians and their output never reach our ears though like the ones mentioned above... and probably mostly for the reasons you mentioned plus other stuff like the biz side of things which can be disheartening at times.

[trurl]

I know there are bands like The Who that seem to thrive on drama (and speaking of which ) and conflict, but man give me harmony any day of the week. I joined a country band once, and I hate country, just because they were great guys and I was going freaking nuts in the band I was in. Played with them for years.

[JIF]

as Squids brought it up, say Anderson/Rabin/Kerzner -- because you think the music of Anderson, the music of Rabin and the music of Kerzner would combine well (and, indeed, I think it would too).

Henry

Actually, it was I that brought it up. Hehehe.

[Richard]

But, it does leave out of Miami so if you and Steve or any of you guys want to grab a beer before we can do a little PE prog hang.

My good friend owns a really great bar in downtown Miami, The Blackbird Ordinary (has an outdoor deck with stage). We are attempting to put together a Pre-Cruise Kick-off on Sunday April 6. We may have some surprise guests too. More details soon, and suggestions are welcome.

[SteveSly]

Maybe even more of a challenge that it already is to get ANY group of people to create together let alone stick together for any length of time.

I think this is true of human beings in general not just musicians. I have been a production supervisor in a manufacturing facility for about 10 years now, and I swear the most difficult part of my job is dealing with “drama” and trying to keep people from being at each other’s throats all the time. It is like sitting on top of a bubbling volcano, and sooner or later there are eruptions. It is amazing how little annoyances can blow up into huge issues when people work with each other day after day hour after hour.

Steve Sly

[martiprog]

On Squids' original theme of working with your heroes, I haven't yet played music with any of them, but have been luck enough to meet and interview many of them, and also work behind the scenes with one or two. They say you should never meet your heroes, but I have to say that for the most part, I've been pleasantly surprised. Too many people to list, but a special mention for some - Steve Hackett is one of the nicest people I've ever met in music, and generous to a fault, while Rick Wakeman was tremendously encouraging and very, very funny too. Carl Palmer is another great guy, and very down to earth, which is surprising given some of the stories from the 70's. I've met them all several times now and each time they were the same.

Also, I worked a little with Ray Wilson when he split from Genesis and helped him book some UK gigs, and I have to say he's a real quality guy as well as a great singer & musician. He gets a hard time from some fans, but I talked to him a great length about his time in the band and all I will say is that he did his best but got a bit of a raw deal. When he joined, most of the CAS album was already written and he only got to contribute to a few numbers. Had TB & MR (and Tony Smith) lowered their expectations a little (re the US in particular), a second album would have been a much more cohesive affair.

In fact, I'm hard pushed to think of anyone in Prog who has disappointed me when I've met them, other than the guys in Twelfth Night back in 85 - they were so arrogant & full of sh*t when I approached them about a support slot that I never listened to them again, and Euan Lowson at a gig where his band Eye Level supported mine - he was out of his face and behaved like a pr*ck, but I've met him since and he was fine. Interestingly, these are very much minor league guys whereas all of the bigger names have been class acts. That says something....

[Camelogue]

I know there are bands like The Who that seem to thrive on drama (and speaking of which ) and conflict, but man give me harmony any day of the week. I joined a country band once, and I hate country, just because they were great guys and I was going freaking nuts in the band I was in. Played with them for years.

"Little bit of chicken fried."

[DGuitarist]

I think this is true of human beings in general not just musicians. I have been a production supervisor in a manufacturing facility for about 10 years now, and I swear the most difficult part of my job is dealing with “drama” and trying to keep people from being at each other’s throats all the time. It is like sitting on top of a bubbling volcano, and sooner or later there are eruptions. It is amazing how little annoyances can blow up into huge issues when people work with each other day after day hour after hour.

Yes.

And I honestly think that not all talented musicians can hear all of the details in certain songs.
This has happened before in our prog tribute band.
"Hear that part, right there?"
"What part? I don't hear anything?!?"

- etc.

Talk about a fight waiting to happen.

[Squids]

KeithandDaveautograph.jpg


Speaking of working with your Prog Heroes, I met up with Keith Emerson a few days ago. This is a picture of me signing Dimensionaut for him. We were having a laugh about that (hence his overly excited expression). There are a few things coming out that feature Keith and I dueling on the keys. He's playing his MEGA MONSTER MOOG MODULAR (which we also sampled) and I'm playing various synths in a call and response sort of fashion. We also do a bit from Tarkus with him on the Moog and me on the Hammond! Although there's a twist to it which I'll share at some point in the not too distant future.

Anyway, I thought I'd share the photo with you guys since it's a fun generational Prog kind of thing. So cool for a keyboard legend like Keith to be into my playing or even aware of it at all. He came to see Kevin Gilbert play when I was in the band years ago (that's when I first met him actually) and he said that even today his memory of that gig was that it was awesome. For Dimensionaut, I told Keith about how I did the keyboard solo at the end in one take and thought I'd redo it but the guys said "No that's it!" which is a very similar thing to the story behind the Lucky Man solo. He loved that.