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Thread: AAJ Review: Peter Gabriel: Live in Athen 1987 (The Complete Concert)

  1. #1

    AAJ Review: Peter Gabriel: Live in Athen 1987 (The Complete Concert)




    My review of Peter Gabriel's Live in Athens 1987: The Complete Concert, including Youssou N'Dour's full forty-minute opening set, today at All About Jazz.

    Count on Peter Gabriel to be ahead of the curve. In 1987, when he was touring his commercial breakthrough record So (Geffen, 1986), he was already thinking ahead (now that the MTV generation had made the value of videos clear) to the potential of recording and releasing concert videos from each of his major tours.

    Since that time he's done just that, though considering the amount of time between tours that hasn't really amounted to all that much, with the British singer—and co-founder of initially less financially successful progressive rock group Genesis that may have attained greater immediate success in the years after he left, but whose albums with the singer/songwriter have since ultimately outsold those more dispensable '80s hit records—releasing only Us (Real Word/Geffen, 1992) and Up (Real World/Virgin, 2002), before turning to his recent orchestral projects, Scratch My Back (Real World, 2010) and New Blood (Real World, 2011), where he revisits his own back catalogue (no Genesis, though), along with some favorite songs by other artists, ranging from Paul Simon and Randy Newman to Arcade Fire and David Bowie.

    But his first concert video, PoV (Virgin, 1990)—while a thoroughly captivating document, released on VHS tape and laserdisc, of his band's 1987 show in Athens, Greece—was both incomplete and, interspersed with all kinds of home film-level behind-the-scenes footage, never quite as successful as later live videos, in particular Secret World Live (Real World/Eagle Entertainment), remaining the only Gabriel live video that has never been made available on DVD (well, it has, but by bootleggers who ripped the original laserdisc and sold illegal DVD versions). That it was a much leaner production—both in terms of visuals and the size of the band—PoV has nevertheless remained a highly regarded (if not somewhat frustrating) document of Gabriel, just as he was making the leap from the cult figure of his first four recordings to that of pop superstar; frustrating, because the assumption has long been that tapes of the entire Athens show have been sitting around, gathering dust, while fans of PoV craved the opportunity to see and hear them.

    Continue reading here...

  2. #2
    while i haven't seen the POV version to see how much is added in here i don't think the show is totally uncut yet. i think you can see the setlist in a few shots and it included big time. also i feel like they edited from more than one show because the members of super etoile's clothing changes during in your eyes as though they had slightly different outfits one night over another. members with more expertise might no better than me that is just what i surmised when i watched my dvd copy a few months ago. (kind of annoyed the big box included a dvd of this and the documentary and now they are on blu ray outside of the box)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by gojikranz View Post
    while i haven't seen the POV version to see how much is added in here i don't think the show is totally uncut yet. i think you can see the setlist in a few shots and it included big time. also i feel like they edited from more than one show because the members of super etoile's clothing changes during in your eyes as though they had slightly different outfits one night over another. members with more expertise might no better than me that is just what i surmised when i watched my dvd copy a few months ago. (kind of annoyed the big box included a dvd of this and the documentary and now they are on blu ray outside of the box)
    Except the big SO box version didn't include Youssou's set.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Except the big SO box version didn't include Youssou's set.
    ya that bugs me too. should have just waited though so DNA is cool.

  5. #5
    Thanks for the review. I saw this in an FYE store a couple of weeks ago and actually posted a question here looking for comments or reviews on the blu ray version. The few responses that I received didn't reveal much as it seemed that not to many had a chance to view it yet. Being a big fan of Peter Gabriel's work from the 70's & early 80's it peaked my interest. I already have the Play videos DVD but I liked what I read in the review regarding the live concert. Since I haven't added anything from him to my collection in years as I'm not to fond of his recent projects this one looks like it worth getting.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    —and co-founder of initially less financially successful progressive rock group Genesis that may have attained greater immediate success in the years after he left, but whose albums with the singer/songwriter have since ultimately outsold those more dispensable '80s hit records—
    I find this very very hard to believe. What is it based on?

    Whilst I love the thought that Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme would have outsold Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance, those later albums sold 40 or 50 million copies between them. No doubt the back-catalogue continues to provide very nice royalty cheques to the Fab Five, especially as the band continues to attract a new generation of prog rock fans, it is stretching things to state that they have outsold the 80s and 90s mega-platinum albums.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nov View Post
    I find this very very hard to believe. What is it based on?

    Whilst I love the thought that Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme would have outsold Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance, those later albums sold 40 or 50 million copies between them. No doubt the back-catalogue continues to provide very nice royalty cheques to the Fab Five, especially as the band continues to attract a new generation of prog rock fans, it is stretching things to state that they have outsold the 80s and 90s mega-platinum albums.
    My source was Steve Hackett. What can I tell you? You can choose to believe it or not. It makes sense to me. I never see those 80s/90s discs in stores anymore, but I always see the Gabriel era stuff.

    I was surprised when Steve told me, but he reiterated that it's the truth.

    Read into it what you will, I trust the source, as he has no real reason to suggest this.
    John
    Ps: I would take what Steve said as the back catalogue has collectively outsold, so that would be the sum total, including the 70-75 box, and the individual releases cumulatively. I would not expect any single album to have outsold, say, WCD, but it seems very possible to me that the cumulative back catalogue has....

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    Nice review! Suggest picking up the Secret World Live Blu-ray that came out last year to replace your bootleg dvd.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mshare View Post
    Nice review! Suggest picking up the Secret World Live Blu-ray that came out last year to replace your bootleg dvd.
    I did! (Well, didn't have bootleg,but you know what I mean.... )

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    My source was Steve Hackett. What can I tell you? You can choose to believe it or not. It makes sense to me. I never see those 80s/90s discs in stores anymore, but I always see the Gabriel era stuff.

    I was surprised when Steve told me, but he reiterated that it's the truth.

    Read into it what you will, I trust the source, as he has no real reason to suggest this.
    John
    Ps: I would take what Steve said as the back catalogue has collectively outsold, so that would be the sum total, including the 70-75 box, and the individual releases cumulatively. I would not expect any single album to have outsold, say, WCD, but it seems very possible to me that the cumulative back catalogue has....
    Many thanks for your reply.

    I can understand this now in that the albums from the Hackett era now out-sell the three man era year on year. Most of those mega album sales would have been in the more disposable 80s but new prog fans will want the classic era stuff. Obviously, if this carries on, the 70s classics will eventually outsell the commercial era in terms of pure numbers of albums.

    Good stuff!

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    Yes, some here still claim there's no interest in the classic era Genesis and they are only in the R&RHOF because of the later stuff and all that. The later stuff sold more at the time (by far....and I think there's still much to like on the later albums) but the early Genesis retain a mystique.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    My source was Steve Hackett. What can I tell you? You can choose to believe it or not. It makes sense to me. I never see those 80s/90s discs in stores anymore, but I always see the Gabriel era stuff.
    So possibly Steve may have been referring to the 3 boxed sets of remixed albums and meant that the 1970-75 box had outsold the others? I agree with Nov that the early 1970s albums, which initially sold less than a million copies (possibly far less in some cases), would have gone on to outsell later albums which sold, if Nov is correct, 40-50 million copies. Does seem hard to believe.
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    It's an obvious proposition that the thoughtful, creative artistic and heartfelt music they made at an early stage of their careers would have far more long term staying power than the disposable dogshit they were peddling when vying for market share with the Lionel Richie's of the world became a fiscal imperative.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    So possibly Steve may have been referring to the 3 boxed sets of remixed albums and meant that the 1970-75 box had outsold the others? I agree with Nov that the early 1970s albums, which initially sold less than a million copies (possibly far less in some cases), would have gone on to outsell later albums which sold, if Nov is correct, 40-50 million copies. Does seem hard to believe.
    Like I said, I believe the idea was that cumulatively...not that Trespass, for example, outsold any of those later records...but it you add up the sales of the box sets and the series of albums from Trespass to Seconds Out inclusive, it does not surprise me that over time, the sum total of these have outsold the '80s records. Slow but steady sales can really add up.

    But everyone here is working on conjecture; I'm simply relaying what Hackett said, and with none of you having been at the interview, in the context of our discussion there was no need for him to raise this issue, so when it came up it was in such a way as I believed him..and still do.

    Doubt all you want, but that's my take and I'm standing by it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nov View Post
    Many thanks for your reply.

    I can understand this now in that the albums from the Hackett era now out-sell the three man era year on year. Most of those mega album sales would have been in the more disposable 80s but new prog fans will want the classic era stuff. Obviously, if this carries on, the 70s classics will eventually outsell the commercial era in terms of pure numbers of albums.

    Good stuff!
    Thanks Nov, that is precisely my point. Huge megaselling records, in general, ultimately drop off sharply because those who wanted them at the time bought them and once they were bought, that was it. The resurgent interest in prog of the past 15 years or so is significant enough that it is not beyond the realm of possiblity, imo, that folks who are coming to the band for the first time are buying those early albums in quantity.

    A friend of mine did a record in 1986, and while it took a few years, but the early '90s it had gone gold in Canada and continues to sell sow but steady enough numbers each year to provide him with an unexpectedly good income. We're not talking Genesis numbers, but the idea that, year over year, slow but steady does it is not uncommon or unreasonable.

    How many copies of Foxtrot do you see in used stores vs the number of WCD or TWWW?

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    No way has Foxtrot sold anything like as many as something like We Can't Dance - not even in the same order of magnitude

  17. #17
    I think it works, but only with very specific parameters: the sum total of all the early albums might have outsold any individual 80's/90's album. But with all respect to Steve Hackett, even allowing for residual sales over time I cannot believe that the early albums have sold THAT many more units. We're talking tens of millions of units, especially when the most commercially-successful albums are combined.

    Perhaps he has the sales numbers to back up his assertion, in which case mea culpa. And I'm sure especially here on PE folks will argue vehemently as to the reputation of the earlier albums holding up better. But those big 80's albums were huge sellers, with the advantage of having been released at a time when the idea of widespread digital piracy wasn't yet a reality.

    There's also the likely boost that sales in the 80's received when singles were still popular too; there were multiple cassette and CD singles (probably a 45 or two for the Genesis album, maybe Invisible Touch). We could ignore them and claim "album sales only count" but that again, it shapes the stats.

    Does anyone know a source for the actual numbers, or is that not public information? I'm actually kind of curious now...perhaps Hackett is right, which really would be a hell of a thing.
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    I think Hackett must have been talking about sales of the re-issue box sets, where I can certainly believe the Gabriel box outsold the IT/WCD box...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie B View Post
    I think Hackett must have been talking about sales of the re-issue box sets, where I can certainly believe the Gabriel box outsold the IT/WCD box...
    That would make sense.
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  20. #20
    I think John has explained this pretty well people. Even I can understand this now.

    Of course Foxtrot hasn't sold more copies than We Can't Dance (yet!), but what's being stated here is that currently, the 70s collection of albums outsells the 80s/90s collection of albums.

    There is a growing interest in prog rock, especially amongst the current generation of teenagers, and they are naturally interested in the classic and pioneering bands that started it all off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nov View Post
    I think John has explained this pretty well people. Even I can understand this now.

    Of course Foxtrot hasn't sold more copies than We Can't Dance (yet!), but what's being stated here is that currently, the 70s collection of albums outsells the 80s/90s collection of albums.

    There is a growing interest in prog rock, especially amongst the current generation of teenagers, and they are naturally interested in the classic and pioneering bands that started it all off.
    I'm sorry, but without wishing to flog a dead horse - that's not what the review and subsequent explanation says. By the way I picked up on it too and was about to question it before I saw you had.

    The claim is that the Gabriel-era albums, while less commercially successful at the time, have "ultimately outsold those more dispensable '80s hit records". There is no way you can package up that statement and make it true. Invisible Touch sold 6 million in the USA alone - and I'm willing to bet very large sums of money that adds up to more than every Gabriel-era album's combined sales world wide.

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    According to this, total album sales of all 15 albums from 1969 to 1997 were 159 million.

    http://classicrock.about.com/od/band...is_profile.htm


    Then this:

    http://tsort.info/music/faq_album_sales.htm

    We Can't Dance: probable 19.6 million
    Invisible Touch: probable 14.6 million

    Then this site:

    http://whitgunn.freeservers.com/Dave...io-albums.html

    Which lists worldwide sales of ATTWT to "Shapes" as 8. 9 million (round up to 10 million), We Can't Dance and IT total of 25 million. Assuming the 159 million is in the ballpark, and using the above figures for We Cant' Dance and IT (35 million) and not the 25 million, the total sales of the 3 person band is 45 million.


    That still leaves 115 million unaccounted for.
    Last edited by N_Singh; 11-14-2013 at 11:59 AM.

  23. #23
    Quibbling about which albums outsold which during whatever timeframe aside....159 million is a damned amazing accomplishment for a band.
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    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Quibbling about which albums outsold which during whatever timeframe aside....159 million is a damned amazing accomplishment for a band.

    No kidding. It's kinda shocking, really.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie B View Post
    I'm sorry, but without wishing to flog a dead horse - that's not what the review and subsequent explanation says. By the way I picked up on it too and was about to question it before I saw you had.

    The claim is that the Gabriel-era albums, while less commercially successful at the time, have "ultimately outsold those more dispensable '80s hit records". There is no way you can package up that statement and make it true. Invisible Touch sold 6 million in the USA alone - and I'm willing to bet very large sums of money that adds up to more than every Gabriel-era album's combined sales world wide.
    In this thread it's exactly what I've said; in the article I did not go into detail because it was not germane to do so. In my recent review of Hackett's Casino du Lac Leamy show, which includes some interview sound files, there's a little more detail, but again, it was really only mentioned in passing because, at the time, I felt that there were far more important things tyo explore with Steve Hackett than challenge his assertion about sales.

    As for "packaging it up and making it true"? If you don't understand the difference between a single album selling more and a collective group of albums doing so, well, there's little more I can say. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The only difference is, with all due respect, you're disagreeing based on nothing more than feelings; I've got the guy who's collecting the royalty checks telling me it's so, and while I've been down this road before with some of you - the idea of whether or not to trust what a musician says in an interview - all I can say is I'm fairly confident in my instincts and pretty good at telling the truth from a lie.

    But if you don't agree with me and you want to challenge Hackett's statement? Fine, ask him for more details the next time you bump into him. Believe me, I am sure he'll be happy to elucidate.

    You may be willing to bet, but if you don't think that massive sellers ultimately, for the most part, fall off a cliff sales-wise unless they become iconic records, and that there are others that, slow and steady, over the course of years - sometimes decades - outsell them, well there's not much more to discuss.

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