Genesis - Duke

[ThomasKDye]

I dunno, "Man of Our Times" just doesn't feel like a cohesive song to me. The verse riff doesn't feel like it has anything to do with the chorus. Plus, the vocals are completely drowned out, the lyrics are even less special than usual, and though the chorus is nice and dramatic (the pause before the final chorus is a very cool effect) it's hurt by Phil's vocals sounding like they're a million miles away. It's just so Frankensong for Genesis.

Now, "Cul De Sac," on the other hand... give me that big climax any day. That's a song that was criminally overlooked later.

[Sputnik]

Had a listen to this on Youtube because I don't own any post W&W Genesis anymore. I agree this is probably one of the best, if not the best, post Hackett Genesis album, but I still don't find it that great. The songs that stood out to me on this listen were Man of Our Times (somewhat surprised to see the criticisms of this one, but to each their own), and Duke's Travels/Duke's End.

The rest is just sort of "OK" to my ears. Nothing awful, but little that really grabs and holds my attention like those earlier albums. I can see why I let it go, though I do miss having a couple of tracks. Actually that's true for many of the later Genesis albums where I like a track or two, but overall they just don't move me. A rare case for me where going on Amazon or some such and buying some individual tracks might fit the bill. Normally I'm a CD only guy.

Bill

[Nic Caciappo]

Check this medley out of Cul de sac / Duke's Travels / Dukes End
by TIM MORSE. Should be available on i-tunes soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLp601UM2zo

[Nic Caciappo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLp601UM2zo

[trurl]

I guess the production is another take it or leave it thing- I actually think it's the best of the Dave Hentschel Genesis albums.

[GuitarGeek]

The only thing I don't like about the production on Duke is that damn Yamaha CP-70 piano. In the studio, I really wish Tony had used a proper grand piano when such a sound was called for. To me, the CP-70 is a bit like those acoustic/electric guitars that were available during that era, ie a good solution for getting an acoustic sound onstage with a full blown electric band, but in my opinion not really adequate for studio use. And Tony wasn't the only one who insisted on using the thing in the studio, there's lots of records I've heard that have the CP-70 (or one of it's clones) being used in place of a proper grand piano, with what I feel are less than satisfying results.

[iguana]

The only thing I don't like about the production on Duke is that damn Yamaha CP-70 piano. In the studio, I really wish Tony had used a proper grand piano when such a sound was called for. To me, the CP-70 is a bit like those acoustic/electric guitars that were available during that era, ie a good solution for getting an acoustic sound onstage with a full blown electric band, but in my opinion not really adequate for studio use. And Tony wasn't the only one who insisted on using the thing in the studio, there's lots of records I've heard that have the CP-70 (or one of it's clones) being used in place of a proper grand piano, with what I feel are less than satisfying results.

no complaints whatosever on this end. i absolutely adore the sound of a CP70 and, along with the numerous threads about hammonds, mellotrons, moogs and what have you, i think that this might warrant a topic by itself. it's a very peculiar tone and it defines the entire trio-genesis period up to “invisible touch”.

[Sputnik]

The only thing I don't like about the production on Duke is that damn Yamaha CP-70 piano.

I agree with you, I've never liked the sound of the CP-70. It always sounds a bit "out of tune" to me. And I'm not a fan of the tone in general.

Production-wise, I did notice this was a rather murky sounding album. But W&W is a bit murky too, and it's among my favorites. I also agree about the lead vocal in Man of Our Times being mixed too low. But for whatever reason, it doesn't spoil the song for me.

Bill

[Stevie B]

I've never liked the sound of the CP-70. It always sounds a bit "out of tune" to me.

I always thought it was just me that thought that! THANK YOU!

Especially during the intro to "Behind the Lines" - it sounds like he's hit a bum chord at one point. However I still love the album, especially as someone said the Cul de Sac reprise during Dukes Travels/End - spine-tingling stuff. And as was usual around this time, an absolute drumming masterclass from Phil throughout the album

[revporl]

It's my favourite album by them overall. The Duke suite, Heathhaze and Cul de Sac especially. But really all of it, a lovely record.

[bill g]

I really like the CP-70. It has a haunting very moody feel that complimented some of Tony's haunting moods. My favorite example is in 'From The Undertow'. It doesn't get more haunting than that. Or the mid section of After The Lie, which is one of my favorite musical moments ever. But having said that, I do think it was a bit overused. Heathaze, for example, could have had a grand piano. Interesting he completely abandoned the CP-70 after Duke.

What I like about David Hentschel is the detail and layers. He was great for layered keyboards. What I don't like is the bass and low end in general which is generally weak. Overall, the only weakly produced of his four I thought was 'And Then There Were Three'.

[ThomasKDye]

I really like the CP-70. It has a haunting very moody feel that complimented some of Tony's haunting moods. My favorite example is in 'From The Undertow'.

Yeah, I guess I'm so used to the sound, that I associate it with Tony's unique chordal voicings, and the sound itself gives the material an unearthly quality. A piano is very "of this world." The unique sound of Tony's electric piano makes it seem more ethereal. With all that in mind, I prefer the piano sound.

[pete100ca]

Pretty sure Tony was running the CP through a chorus effect so it sounds slightly detuned. I love it and in particular on A Curious Feeling. I love duke as well but... This marked the start of Phil's screaming style of singing. Sad for me as I loved his singing on trick through ATTWT. Guide vocal is my fave.

[Rufus]

Defo the best post - Hackett album! I thought they were finnished after the And Then They Where Tripe disaster but they re-deemed themselves with Duke !

[Progatron]

I thought they were finnished after the And Then They Where Tripe disaster but they re-deemed themselves with Duke !

While I think Duke is a stronger album overall than ATTWT, I'm actually a really big fan of that one too. I've said it many times - it really has a special mood to it, and sounds like no other Genesis album IMO. Also, "Down And Out" is about as strong an album opener as they ever had, maybe tied with "Dance On A Volcano". I know ATTWT was the furthest they ever got from the group writing dynamic, but I see it as a natural stepping-stone to reach the heights of Duke, and I probably have given them each equal listening time over the years.

[JJ88]

I think it's evident who wrote what on 'Duke' as well, when you hear the solo albums of the time. I mean, 'Man Of Our Times' could have been on 'Smallcreeps Day', 'Heathaze' on 'A Curious Feeling'...

ATTWT is great too, a couple of weaker songs but most of it holds up well...particularly when compared with what certain other groups served up in that year. The band themselves have been too dismissive of it IMHO. Not wild about the production though...this period of Genesis really was their worst in terms of sound IMHO (at least with the earlier albums, they were by no means 'established').

[Progatron]

I think it's evident who wrote what on 'Duke' as well, when you hear the solo albums of the time. I mean, 'Man Of Our Times' could have been on 'Smallcreeps Day', 'Heathaze' on 'A Curious Feeling'...

Definitely. The solo compositions were still present here (and on Abacab), but the group writing was a tad higher percentage than on ATTWT - and very strong, at that.

[Fracktured]

I guess coming from the old school of listening to Genesis from the Gabriel era onwards I got the impression that they had started sinking with ATTWT and it continued on with Duke. I like some of it and I wouldn't call it an awful album, but Genesis really started to fade with me after this one came out.

[DefinitiveGazer]

Pretty sure Tony was running the CP through a chorus effect so it sounds slightly detuned. I love it and in particular on A Curious Feeling. I love duke as well but... This marked the start of Phil's screaming style of singing. Sad for me as I loved his singing on trick through ATTWT. Guide vocal is my fave.

Have a look at this : http://genesislive.ning.com/group/eq...28:Topic:36382

Seems TB was running the CP through a CE. I always thought some kind of chorus effect had been applied to the piano, but I never really liked it.

Any ideas where he used the CS80?

[GuitarGeek]

Any ideas where he used the CS80?

I remember reading where he said he used on Dodo/The Lurker, I think for the bass line, but beyond that I can't remember where else he'd have used it. I think he mentions Dodo/The Lurker in the Keyboard magazine interview from 84, where he also mentions he couldn't take it on the road because it was too heavy to set on top of anything else and the front panel was such you couldn't set anything of it either. And he was very much into having all his keyboards where he could reach them from a seated position, without having to move about (sort of the anti-Geoff Downes, I guess).

Not sure what other songs it appears on, though.

[Scott Bails]

I dunno. I think, like the Mellotron, if you consider the CP-70 (or whatever the hell it's called) to be its own instrument and not an approximation of a piano, it has a unique sound and character. Again, I didn't care for it initially, and also felt that they should have just used a real piano, but now I can't imagine the album without it.

[JIF]

Interesting he completely abandoned the CP-70 after Duke.

Wasn't That's All played on a CP-70?

[Scott Bails]

I always thought that was a real piano, though I'm clearly not an expert.

[GuitarGeek]

Wasn't That's All played on a CP-70?

Sounds like an acoustic piano to me, but it's been awhile since I've listened to it. On No Reply At All, I think he said he played acoustic piano, as well, for whichever reason. If I remember correctly, though, Banks said he used the Synclavier for the "organ" solo on That's All.

[iguana]

I really like the CP-70. It has a haunting very moody feel that complimented some of Tony's haunting moods. My favorite example is in 'From The Undertow'. It doesn't get more haunting than that. Or the mid section of After The Lie, which is one of my favorite musical moments ever. But having said that, I do think it was a bit overused. Heathaze, for example, could have had a grand piano. Interesting he completely abandoned the CP-70 after Duke.

the CP-70 remained in his live rig until the “invisible touch” tour. after that, digital pianos with weighted keys and a better “real piano” reproduction became available and he used these from “we can’t dance” onwards. he did draw back his entire piano work though for albums after “duke” in favour of more synth textures.