Gabriel-era Genesis... who wrote what songs??

[Wilton Said...]

Yeagh, guys. BUT, probably none of this is wholly correct, at least verbatim. Credit where credit is due seems to fall short in the industry, especially when publishing rights and mechanical royalties are somewhat spread out to appease band members, across the board. The only people who would really know who wrote what are the band members, and I'd bet they've long ago forgotten the particulars.

One thing is factual here: the music composer(s) is/are usually entitled to 50%, and the lyricist(s) the other 50%. Artistically reasoned or not, Gabriel insisted on controlling the texts, entitling him to 50% of the publishing of tLLDOB (where the pieces were not instrumental). I find it unlikely that this had nothing to do with his departure from the band.

At one time when old jazz and show tunes were written by duos, this would make sense for the publishing to be split 50/50 as one would often write the music while the other wrote the lyrics. However, for music where there may be more then two writers, this is not necessarily the case. Perhaps you're thinking of Marillion. I believe it was stated in their Separated Out biography that when they were writing the follow up to Clutching at Straws, Fish apparently wanted 50% of the publishing as he wrote the lyrics while the rest of the band wrote the music. The band weren't too happy about this which also caused tension and was a reason for Fish leaving.

Wilton

[JIF]

At one time when old jazz and show tunes were written by duos, this would make sense for the publishing to be split 50/50 as one would often write the music while the other wrote the lyrics. However, for music where there may be more then two writers, this is not necessarily the case. Perhaps you're thinking of Marillion. I believe it was stated in their Separated Out biography that when they were writing the follow up to Clutching at Straws, Fish apparently wanted 50% of the publishing as he wrote the lyrics while the rest of the band wrote the music. The band weren't too happy about this which also caused tension and was a reason for Fish leaving.

Wilton

I'm sure that the drugs and alcohol didn't help.

[bill g]

I'm surprised to hear that Tony came up with the intro to "32 Doors" - that one just screams Steve Hackett. Very interesting indeed. Tony and Steve were very similar in many ways. Either way, it's almost entirely Gabriel's track otherwise.

I could talk about this stuff all day.

Yeah. Tony's chording style though. But yeah, I remember Tony saying when Steve left he felt he'd lost an ally. Though the albums are very different, I think of Tony's instrumental intro to 'Behind The Lines' and Steve's instrumental intro to 'Camino Royale', both melodies that come up again at the end of their respective albums. Oh if they would just do an album together. Without Mike or Phil. Maybe a prog-style instrumental album. Anyway, I could talk about this stuff all day too.

[Scott Bails]

I remember Tony saying when Steve left he felt he'd lost an ally.

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

[ThomasKDye]

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

Tony and Peter were also at loggerheads a lot of the time as well (most of Phil's recollections of Genesis studio time seem to involve Tony and Peter arguing) but I think they appreciated what the other brought to the material. You can conflict a lot but come up with even more creative stuff because of it.

[firth5th]

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

I think there was tension at the time, but reflecting back more recently, Tony has nothing but good things to say about Steve and his contributions to Genesis.

[dpt3]

[QUOTE=bill g;163679 Oh if they would just do an album together.[/QUOTE]

But would it be called "Bankett" or "Backett"?

[dnieper]

How about just "Hacks"

[Banks]

This thread is very interesting. I know it's not necessarily the right place, but I would like take this discussion a little further : what about the late era when they allways credited their songs to collins/banks/rutherford. Songs' credits from that period are harder to trace because the band members seem to avoid the question with the very dodgy "we write together through jams" argument without further details (even though they still admited in an interview that the collins-like "hold on my heart" is by banks).

However I cannot help but feel that some songs seem to come mainly from one of the band members (regardless of the lyrics which have clear credit). The very good "Fading lights" is pure Banks all around as seems "the brazilian", whereas "no son of mine" and "land of confusion" sound a little more Rutherford, while "tell me why" and "since i lost you" sound collins, while some could definitely be a group effort like "jesus he knows me", of course as "hold on my heart" shows, this could be misleading, Banks showing a big inclination towards pop (it seems very likely that he was the main writer of the stinker "invisible touch")

Any thougths?

[dpt3]

Wasn't "Invisible Touch" primarily Rutherford's? At least, I seem to remember that it originated in the guitar riff that he came up with.

[Rufus]

Wasn't "Invisible Touch" primarily Rutherford's? At least, I seem to remember that it originated in the guitar riff that he came up with.

Don't think he'd own up to it even if he did !

On a serious note didn't Hackett leave the band because his ideas where mostly met with rejection . The only album i hear much of a Hackett influence is W&W.

[Banks]

Hackett had too much material to stay in genesis, it was frustrating for him.

[Progatron]

However I cannot help but feel that some songs seem to come mainly from one of the band members (regardless of the lyrics which have clear credit). The very good "Fading lights" is pure Banks all around as seems "the brazilian", whereas "no son of mine" and "land of confusion" sound a little more Rutherford, while "tell me why" and "since i lost you" sound collins, while some could definitely be a group effort like "jesus he knows me", of course as "hold on my heart" shows, this could be misleading, Banks showing a big inclination towards pop (it seems very likely that he was the main writer of the stinker "invisible touch")

Certainly there are occasions where a song or two stem almost entirely from one member musically, but starting with the 'Shapes' album they walked into the studio each time with a clean slate - so with all three members in the room at the time the songs were written (or the ideas were at least hashed out), it does make sense to credit all three. Regarding the specific songs you mention: "Fading Lights" was a lengthy jam in the studio that was eventually pruned to a more manageable length for the album - definitely a band composition. Likewise with "The Brazilian" although I agree that it sounds Banks-heavy. "No Son Of Mine" was actually another one initiated by Banks, who used a sample of Rutherford's guitar tuning because he liked that it sounded like an elephant, and Collins vocalizing until a melody had taken shape. "Land Of Confusion" was a Rutherford bit for sure, and was also his lyric. I'm not sure how much input Banks and Collins had on that one... it's not hard to picture it as a Mechanics piece actually. "Tell Me Why" was something Mike came up with on the Rickenbacker (I remember them 'leaking' that information while the album was coming together and being tremendously disappointed with the end result - it's okay I guess). I've never heard much about the writing of "Since I Lost You" - it was added to the album sessions very late in the game because Phil wanted to pay his respects to Eric Clapton who had recently suffered the loss of his young son Connor (who had fallen from a window). Certainly the lyric is Phil's, but I have no idea who came up with the music. It doesn't sound like something jammed. "Invisible Touch" was another riff of Mike's that the group expanded (not that it was expanded into much, mind you) again with Phil improvising vocals that eventually became lyrics. As for Banks' inclination towards pop, you're quite right. He does in fact like a lot of pop music, more than people may think. Look no further than a lot of his solo career - it wasn't only Phil & Mike who 'popped' it up.

[zorknapp]

If you've ever been in a band that generated material through jamming, it's very easy to see how difficult it is for the members of Genesis to talk about how different bits came together. Yes, all the material from Shapes onward came through jamming, and then refining those jams. And refining, and refining...

The reason why it's all group credited is because without them in the room, the jams wouldn't have happened the same way. Tony reacts to Mike, who reacts to Tony, who reacts to the melody that Phil is singing, and Phil reacts to Tony. Then, through the long process of refining those jams, music and songs take shape.

Phil was the one who used to catalog the tapes from the day each night, and say, "Let's go back to bit #12," or whatever.

It's a cool way of generating material, because as they all said, they couldn't do it that way in their solo careers, where their music was created on their own.

Mike

[bill g]

Interesting insights. I do remember in an interview Banks had little to do with 'Invisible Touch', except to 'add some chords to the effort', as he put it. The one thing that used to be on wiki and no longer is so it may be wrong-that Banks wrote 'Do The Neurotic' and 'Feeding The Fire', or they were mostly his, which was one reason they didn't end up on Invisible Touch. Since Banks wrote the instrumental intro to Behind The Lines, I can certainly see his hand in Do The Neurotic, but could see Phil doing some of the cool percussion stuff at the intro. I've never heard that Tony wrote Hold on my Heart, I did read that Phil in fact wrote the lyrics to that one, but can't confirm that in anything I have in writing. Since the chords are actually quite moody, I could see Tony more strongly involved there. I do know Tony wrote the lyrics to 'Fading Lights' and 'Living Forever'. (Not to mention Domino, Anything She Does, Silver Rainbow and Home By The Sea) and that Phil came up with the chorus of 'In Too Deep'-The very chorus that to me takes the song down about 3 notches.

[bill g]

One more thing, about Banks' 'inclination toward pop'. When Banks does pop, I tend to quite like it. When Phil and Mike do pop, I don't so much. Banks' solo albums have gotten way more spins from both my wife and I than post Abacab Genesis albums.

[Progatron]

Speaking of "Behind The Lines" (I guess this could go in the Duke thread), I'd love to read the original lyrics Phil presented to Mike & Tony, who deemed them 'much too dark' to use.

[Kai]

I've never heard that Tony wrote Hold on my Heart, I did read that Phil in fact wrote the lyrics to that one, but can't confirm that in anything I have in writing. Since the chords are actually quite moody, I could see Tony more strongly involved there.

Banks stated in 1991: "I managed to creep in a few more chords than I'm normally allowed to on this song, so it has a sort of Burt Bacharach feel." Which of course doesn't suggest he wrote all of it, but I'm sure he had a big role in composing that one.

I've never heard much about the writing of "Since I Lost You" - it was added to the album sessions very late in the game because Phil wanted to pay his respects to Eric Clapton who had recently suffered the loss of his young son Connor (who had fallen from a window). Certainly the lyric is Phil's, but I have no idea who came up with the music.

Banks also stated at the time that he had originated the song by playing chords in 6/8 rhythm to evoke a Phil Spector-like atmosphere, "originally as a joke, and I didn't like it much, until Mike said it sounded great." Apparently, they later developed it from there.

[Banks]

hey bill g, I'm with you about banks pop. Even though on Genesis side, the shapes album is definitely their best pop album (in which, with all fairness, still contained some inclination towards prog, but then all their albums have). It's also their darkest album from the trio period. For all those reasons, it's still quite listenable to me. Never fancied Mike + mechanics although i found their rewired album to be quite good (except one or two "lion king"-like tunes). Banks' Still and Bankstatement are still better than anything from Phil and Mike (except Rewired). On Genesis side We can't dance could have been so much better. I'm forced to skip : "tell me why", "never a time", "way of the world", "since i lost you", "hold on my heart". Throw out those five and add "on the shoreline" and MAYBE even "heart's on fire" and you have improved the album by at least factor 10.

This applies to the whole trio era in fact :
-on duke, cut out "alone tonight" and "please don't ask" and add "evidence of autumn"
-on wind and wuthering (even though hackett was still there), leave out the rolling stone-praised "own special way" and add "inside and out"
-on abacab, add naminanu and submarine to complete the naminanu/dodo/lurker/submarine suite, add you might recall and me and virgil and paperlate (here there's potential for an epic)
-on invisible touch, skip the title track, int too deep and add "do the neurotic"

Those guys still had talent but their career seems to be paddled by bad choices in artistic direction.

[Banks]

on a positive note, even though i pretty much hate their invisible touch period, they still delivered a first rate show at wembley (a paradox many bands know)

[Banks]

Regarding "Hold on my heart" on my live we can't dance dvd, theres an interview where Banks is clearly asked if he gets annoyed that people often credit HomH to Phil. Phil states more or less "those chords are to complex to be from me".

[Progatron]

-on abacab, add naminanu and submarine to complete the naminanu/dodo/lurker/submarine suite, add you might recall and me and virgil and paperlate (here there's potential for an epic)

I agree with a lot of your post, except adding in "Me And Virgil", my all-time least favourite Genesis track (there aren't many, but I just can't tolerate that one). Other than that, the 2-LP version of Abacab would have been quite interesting.

[bill g]

I agree with a lot of your post, except adding in "Me And Virgil", my all-time least favourite Genesis track (there aren't many, but I just can't tolerate that one). Other than that, the 2-LP version of Abacab would have been quite interesting.

Really? I really like that one and find it more 'proggy' than almost anything from Abacab (me & sarah Jane excepted, of course) Also Phil's voice seems really strong in that one. The middle section in particular, helps give the whole thing a feel of being a mini-epic. The one I don't care for is the overtly straightforward 'Paperlate'. That is one I'd leave off.

Mr. Banks, I do agree with much of your assessments of songs that should have been kept and left off. Although I have a soft spot for 'Tell Me Why', since I get a strong feel from the chord changes. At least that one and 'Hold On My Heart' have some chords. But yes, I don't need some of those songs-'I Cant Dance' is my least favorite Genesis song ever, and 'Never A Time' is a very close 2nd least.

[mozo-pg]

Don't think he'd own up to it even if he did !

On a serious note didn't Hackett leave the band because his ideas where mostly met with rejection . The only album i hear much of a Hackett influence is W&W.

This is why I don't get the 100 percent drooling over Hackett's Genesis Revisted shows. I saw the show in Gatineau, Quebec and I was amazed by how little Hackett was playing on the classic Genesis tunes, except Blood On The Rooftops, Firth of Fifth, and some of the remaining tunes from Trick and Wind. I was actually starting to get bored despite knowing everyone else was, like I said, drooling. I thought the guy in the seat in front of me was having a spastic fit and was going to explode. I definitely preferred Steve's solo tours where he really attacked his guitar.

[Progatron]

Really? I really like that one and find it more 'proggy' than almost anything from Abacab (me & sarah Jane excepted, of course) Also Phil's voice seems really strong in that one. The middle section in particular, helps give the whole thing a feel of being a mini-epic. The one I don't care for is the overtly straightforward 'Paperlate'. That is one I'd leave off.

Yeah. It's in the bottom five with "Illegal Alien", "Since I Lost You", "If That's What You Need", and "Invisible Touch". I've never liked the lyrics, and I especially cringe at that Banks line after "Pa you broke her heart". Even as I typed that, I cringed. I know Phil has a strong dislike for the track too, and was apparently adamant that it be left off the Archive 2 boxed set. I'm not sure what the other two think of it, but Banks probably likes it. Don't ask me why I say that - just a hunch. I like "Paperlate" well enough, and I think the story of its origins is so cool! And of course I LOVE "Me And Sarah Jane", one of my favourites from that album.

I have a soft spot for 'Tell Me Why', since I get a strong feel from the chord changes. At least that one and 'Hold On My Heart' have some chords. But yes, I don't need some of those songs-'I Cant Dance' is my least favorite Genesis song ever, and 'Never A Time' is a very close 2nd least.

"Tell Me Why" and "Hold On My Heart" are okay, nothing special though. Occasional skipper tracks, but not bad songs by any means. "Never A Time" is pretty weak and probably floats not far above those "bottom five" I mentioned earlier, but I can stomach it slightly more than "Virgil" for example. I like "I Can't Dance", if I can get the image of the video out of my head.