Cassiber

[Udi Koomran]

Cutler was quite suspired when I told him how highly I thought of the Live album and lamenting the fact they did not include this in the box set

[Udi Koomran]

Imagine Mike Mantler using Christoph Anders in one of his album that would have been something ...

[Scrotum Scissor]

What do you guys think of the Live album - for me its a tour de force - one of the best live albums

Live in Tokyo? Great, great stuff - including Otomo Yoshihide's reworking of things.

[chalkpie]

Crap - its the one album I didn't get, although I'm sure the sale will go on for a while. I'm gonna see how how those other four studio records sit first. Pretty psyched actually.

[Steve F.]

Live in Tokyo? Great, great stuff - including Otomo Yoshihide's reworking of things.

Didn't like this one. Only played it once a long time ago. Will have to try it again.

[Udi Koomran]

Live in Tokyo? Great, great stuff - including Otomo Yoshihide's reworking of things.

brilliant stuff !

[Udi Koomran]

I suspect Steve is not a big Ground Zero / Otomo fan

[Scrotum Scissor]

^

Personally I *LOVE* Revolutionary Pekinese Opera and Null & Void, with the s/t Ground Zero certianly also a very interesting listen. Pekinese was one of my fave ReR releases in the 90s next to Hunger's Teeth by 5UU's.

[Udi Koomran]

For me Ground Zero defined the 90's when it came to innovation and envelope pushing
they brought a sound and aesthetic that was totally new fresh and ground breaking
Consume Red - what a way to end the 90's a lot of people hate and dismiss it

[Jay.Dee]

Indeed he is. It's when I see and hear him play like this that I start to wonder about the concept of "instrumentalist status" in rock/borderline music. To me, his style has always been technically impeccable yet almost incomprehensibly individual at the same time. Usually they tend to sway in either direction, but not in both. He's a rock/contemporary drummer/percussionist with the finesse of a jazz player, and there are extremely few of those cases out there - at least convincing examples of it.

Agreed. Chris Cutler is one of the most undervalued instrumentalists in (progressive) rock. However, let us be frank here - the "instrumentalist status" in rock is hugely inflated by the appeal of his/her music to wider public. Bill Bruford's status would have been halved if he had not played with Crimson and toured with Genesis, and decimated if he had not played on "All Good People" and "Roundabout". Enough to check this list of 50 greatest bass players to spot the pattern:

http://www.udiscovermusic.com/the-50...t-bass-players

As for Cassiber I need to check that live album recorded in Tokyo. I have their more recent live compilation "The Way It Was" and it is a tough nut to crack for me, due to a lot of mechanical industrial sounds and rhythms involved. I did not expected such a brutal assault; at least "Man or Monkey" had not prepared me for it.

However, I do love Heiner Goebbels' "The Italian Concerto" with Cutler's participation and wildly eclectic music programme. Probably one of my favourite discs from the no-man's land stretching between "popular" and "academic" music territories.

[chalkpie]

^This is good stuff. Me thinks we might need a dedicated ReR label favorites list thread - I started one with Cunie but not this (actually, that isn't true, I started both on the olde PE before we got all high-tech).

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Ground Zero - again I have only heard what was included on the red/blue discs.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Ground Zero - again I have only heard what was included on the red/blue discs.

I'd start with wither one of the two I mentioned. Together with Consume Red, these are probably the only ones you'll be able to find nowadays. Null & Void was on Tzadik, the other two on ReR. I really like Consume Red, but it contains only *one* lengthy, consistent piece of buildup montage and arguably doesn't quite fit as introduction. Pekinese Opera and Null & Void both do, IMHO. Ground Zero actually had a lot more than those four-five releases, but the rest were issued in Japan only.

[Morpheus]

Pekinese Opera is great, start there.

Also check out Altered States, improv rock that shares members with GZ.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Also check out Altered States, improv rock that shares members with GZ.

Altered States was one of the greatest and most influential Japanese bands of the last 30 years, together with Ruins and maybe just a handful of others. With their part-Krimsonic, part-Massacre, part-BloodUlmer/Last Exit and mostly just themselves, they became more or less synonymous with Nippon "rock improv" from the very early 90s and on. I still regard Kazuhisa Uchihashi one of the most incredible electric guitarists I ever saw, for his unspeakable creativity as both technician and sonic conceptualist. There was no one like him, although people like Buckethead robbed him of many honours.

Altered States (guitars/bass/drums) were actually recruited into Ground Zero to make out the "rock half" of the group; the rest being brass, synths/keys, turntable and effects (Otomo). For AS' own works, try Altered States 4 on Uchihashi's Zenbei Records; recorded live at the Knitting Factory in 1993 (IIRC), these are long pieces intertwining theme heads with free improv and modal jams, possibly the finest such approach I ever heard from a rock band.

[Jay.Dee]

For Altered States' own works, try Altered States 4 on Uchihashi's Zenbei Records; recorded live at the Knitting Factory in 1993 (IIRC), these are long pieces intertwining theme heads with free improv and modal jams, possibly the finest such approach I ever heard from a rock band.

Thanks for the hint. I have only their decade later "Live in Tokyo" set, and it is a terrific slice of improvised/jam rock indeed. I am not sure what to make of the track titles, three faux-Santana covers ("Caravanserai", "Borboletta" & "Lotus") and one faux-Crimson number ("Starless"). I cannot hear any relation to the "originals" though.

It is quite puzzling, especially that YouTube is full of their faithful covers of classic Crimson material.

[Kcrimso]

I like all Cassiber albums but prefer the first two when they were still almost 100% improvisatory. Just listening Beauty And The Beast and it is just brilliant. Love the crazy comic book-like vocals on "Robert"!

[Steve F.]

I like all Cassiber albums but prefer the first two when they were still almost 100% improvisatory. Just listening Beauty And The Beast and it is just brilliant. Love the crazy comic book-like vocals on "Robert"!

I don’t know if I would call Cassiber 100% imprository: the music may have started that way, but by the time they recorded it, they were pieces (and pieces that were clearly recognizable when performing them).

But I agree that I like the 4 piece more than the 3 piece.

[Zeuhlmate]

I don’t know if I would call Cassiber 100% imprository: the music may have started that way, but by the time they recorded it, they were pieces (and pieces that were clearly recognizable when performing them).

But I agree that I like the 4 piece more than the 3 piece.

Yes, and live they even did covers.
I have heard them perform 'At Last I Am Free' (Chic + Wyatt + Frazer).

[Kcrimso]

I don’t know if I would call Cassiber 100% imprository: the music may have started that way, but by the time they recorded it, they were pieces (and pieces that were clearly recognizable when performing them).

I have always though it was the opposite: they improvised the material for their early records and then they performed the same music live which was the point they become the recognizable pieces.

[Mister Triscuits]

I have always though it was the opposite: they improvised the material for their early records and then they performed the same music live which was the point they become the recognizable pieces.

I'm listening to the first album right now; the liner note certainly seems to say that the pieces were improvised live in the studio, with only the words written in advance. But then they muddy the waters with talk of "improvis[ing] 'finished compositions'...no distance between structure arrangements and interpretation," which could be interpreted to mean that the "improvisations" involved working with predetermined elements, which sounds very likely to me.

[Steve F.]

I have always though it was the opposite: they improvised the material for their early records and then they performed the same music live which was the point they become the recognizable pieces.

Sure doesn’t sound that way to me….

[Kcrimso]

Sure doesn’t sound that way to me….

So you mean that the Cassiber's reputation as a band that creates material by improvisation is more or less a complete lie?

[Steve F.]

So you mean that the Cassiber's reputation as a band that creates material by improvisation is more or less a complete lie?

It’s not their ‘reputation’, it’s a band statement. Sometimes also called ‘hype’.

I happen to believe that it happened the way I stated that I think it happened. Do I know with certainty? No. Does it not agree with the band’s statement of how it worked? No it does not. Do I have a reasonable (in my mind) argument for believing what I believe? *I* think so. YMMV.

[Steve F.]

^^^^^^^^^

PS

Can stated the same thing about all pieces being completely improvised. I don’t believe that they worked 100% the way that they claimed they worked. I am making a reasonable guess based on what I hear.

None of this means that I don’t very much enjoy Can or Cassiber or anyone else whose public statements may embellish the facts in a positive way; none of it changes the music or the worth of the music to me. It just makes me laugh a little bit. And post things that I hope I don’t regret posting later in discussions.

[Piskie]

Monet used to claim that all his paintings were done outdoors and that he didn't have a studio. And this is mostly true apart from the ones he painted in his studio.