Pop Song Form: When Did the Repetitive "Hooky" Chorus Become the Norm?

[jkelman]

As part of my recent Grateful Dead binge, I was amused to read, in Dennis McNally's tremendous bio, of how, when challenged about a song being too long for single format (cannot recall the tune), the Dead simply put a lower time on the label of the single sent to radio stations, one that was more in-line with single length, and the radios played it, never (apparently) realizing it was, in fact, longer.

The more I read about the Dead, the more I like 'em.

[Mister Triscuits]

As part of my recent Grateful Dead binge, I was amused to read, in Dennis McNally's tremendous bio, of how, when challenged about a song being too long for single format (cannot recall the tune), the Dead simply put a lower time on the label of the single sent to radio stations, one that was more in-line with single length, and the radios played it, never (apparently) realizing it was, in fact, longer.

Phil Spector had pulled the same stunt with "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" by the Righteous Brothers. The actual running time was 3:45, but Spector put 3:05 on the label.

[Vic2012]

^ Add Led Zeppelin to that as well. I remember when I had their first album back in the early 70s, "How Many More Times" had a running time listed as 4mins: and however many seconds. I always thought the song was longer (which it was). I found out years later that this wasn't a typo but it was deliberately listed as being a lot shorter than it was.

[Progtopia]

I heard the Who's "Eminence Front" on XM yesterday and thought of this thread.

[GuitarGeek]

Speaking of the Grateful Dead, I was listening to a show from 1974 today, and the encore was Casey Jones. Now, in the first place, I don't particularly like that song, but it gets even worse with versions that around 5-6 minutes long! The actual song takes something like 2 or 3 minutes to play, but they'd insist on looping that damn chorus again and again for another 2-3 minutes! It's like "Yeah, we get the point, can you just end the song already?!". Maybe it took Jerry that long to remember what the cue for the coda was.

[rcarlberg]

GD tended to stretch songs way past their content anyway.

[GuitarGeek]

GD tended to stretch songs way past their content anyway.

As did every single progressive rock band.

There's a big difference between stretching out with extended improvisation, and just repeating a chorus that was inane begin with over and over and over for three minutes straight!

[Baribrotzer]

Speaking of the Grateful Dead, I was listening to a show from 1974 today, and the encore was "Casey Jones". Now, in the first place, I don't particularly like that song, but it gets even worse with versions that around 5-6 minutes long! The actual song takes something like 2 or 3 minutes to play, but they'd insist on looping that damn chorus again and again for another 2-3 minutes! It's like "Yeah, we get the point, can you just end the song already?!". Maybe it took Jerry that long to remember what the cue for the coda was.

Yeah, man, but you like had to be there, man, I mean it was like SO COOL how they just repeated it and repeated it and repeated it, man, and we were all getting off on it, man, and we couldn't get enough of how Jerry was singing, "high on cocaine", man, and we screamed louder every time he sang it, man, and I could like almost see Casey Jones driving his train right out of the speakers and into the audience, man, and I was like moving my fingers and making tracks in the air for him to drive on, man, and......


Or, in other words: The Dead knew their audience.

[GuitarGeek]

Or, in other words: The Dead knew their audience.

No they didn't. If they did, they wouldn't have stopped playing St Stephen and The Eleven, they'd have dropped some of the cover tunes, and they'd have stopped playing US Blues (which was a song a lot of fans apparently got sick of hearing).

Or at least that was the impression I got from reading Relix, any time a discussion of what songs should the Dead revive, St Stephen was always like number one in every poll, and of at least a few reviews where the reviewers moaned about US Blues. You also had a lot of complaints about the rather predictable setlists (ie if Estimated Prophet frequently segueing into Eyes Of The World, China Cat Sunflower almost always segueing into I Know You Rider, etc).

On the other hand, you may be right, may be they did know their audience, in so much that they may have known that if they were playing to a crowd of 20,000, about 15,000 would have still come to the show even if they decided to do nothing but Bread and Captain And Tenille covers, just as most of them apparently didn't care about the frequently sloppy performances of the last 15 years.

[Digital_Man]

[How is that not a "proper" chorus? ]

I think in any other song it would probably be considered a bridge. It's not a big chorusy kind of chorus in my opinion. It certainly would be rejected by any power pop band. I don't hate the song; I just find it a bit repetitive.

[Baribrotzer]

No they didn't. If they did, they wouldn't have stopped playing St Stephen and The Eleven, they'd have dropped some of the cover tunes, and they'd have stopped playing US Blues (which was a song a lot of fans apparently got sick of hearing).

Or at least that was the impression I got from reading Relix

You're also talking about the real fans, the ones who actually listened to the music. I would put it to you that they are not a majority of Deadheads. And that the real majority of Deadheads are the ones who saw a Dead show as The World's Biggest Party, where they could take all kinds of drugs and go floppy-dancing for five hours. The Dead were simply too large a phenomenon, too big a mass movement for most fans to be about the music rather than the social scene.

[GuitarGeek]

The Dead were simply too large a phenomenon, too big a mass movement for most fans to be about the music rather than the social scene.

Yeah, probably. Too bad the band itself couldn't at least behave like it really was just about the music (as they had in the 60's and 70's). But then when you've got a lead guitarist who keeps falling off the wagon, a rhythm guitarist who was apparently content singing cover tunes, one two many trap drummers onstage, the results are gonna be inconsistent, I guess.

[Digital_Man]

The GD were good at what they did. Their talent as a band(especially in the songwriting department)has been severely overshadowed by the drug and party culture that many of their fans were a part of(more so than the music itself as has been already mentioned). This is one reason why I refer to the Grateful Dead as a "bandwagon band." What I mean by that is a band that everyone claims they like because it's cool to be considered a fan so they jump on the bandwagon. The Grateful Dead are by far the best example of that. Not all bandwagon bands have fans who are halfassed about the music though but some are. Other examples would be Phish, The Beatles(ever see a 12 year old kid wearing a Beatles shirt because he probably thinks it's somehow cool), Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and possibly Rush. There are others too but those would be at the top of the list. Also probably pretty much any even remotely popular jam band. It's almost as if people become fans of certain bands because that's a way for them to meet people who will sell them weed(or do drugs and get high in general).

[GuitarGeek]

I think another thing about the Dead, at least in the 80's, was it was like a passport back to the 60's, which I think a lot of people my age and maybe slightly older than me (and younger people, probably) feel they missed out on. So you go to a Dead show, or you follow them on tour, and you get to experience the cool stuff about the 60's, without dealing with the downside (ie having to worry about getting drafted and sent to Vietnam).

[Digital_Man]

[The Dead were simply too large a phenomenon, too big a mass movement for most fans to be about the music rather than the social scene. ]


Exactly. If you look at concert attendances they had huge shows and played in football stadiums. However, sales wise they had a few platinum and multi platinum albums which put them in the same ball park as Jethro Tull, Rush and Yes. Only two GD studio albums have been certified double platinum(and none more than that). Those two would be "American beauty" and "In the dark" for anyone who's keeping track of that kind of thing.

[GuitarGeek]

Only two GD studio albums have been certified double platinum(and none more than that). Those two would be "American beauty" and "In the dark" for anyone who's keeping track of that kind of thing.

Three, actually. You're forgetting Workingman's Dead. It took that album and American Beauty more than a decade to go platinum, whereas In The Dark went platinum almost immediately, no doubt aided and abetted by the Touch Of Grey video that MTV played like it wasn't the national anthem.

[rcarlberg]

Yeah, man, but you like had to be there, man, I mean it was like SO COOL how they just repeated it and repeated it and repeated it, man, and we were all getting off on it, man, and we couldn't get enough of how Jerry was singing, "high on cocaine", man, and we screamed louder every time he sang it, man, and I could like almost see Casey Jones driving his train right out of the speakers and into the audience, man, and I was like moving my fingers and making tracks in the air for him to drive on, man, and......


Or, in other words: The Dead knew their audience.

LOL Exactly. GD was a simple bluegrass band who played up the drugs association for all it was worth, knowing that at any concert 98% of their audience was too high to notice or care about the abysmal quality of the music.

Of course that's just my opinion -- your mileage may vary (depending on how high you are...)

[GuitarGeek]

GD was a simple bluegrass band

You've obviously never listened to their music.

[Trane]

Supertramp's From Now On features in the last 90 seconds the chorus repeated endlessly, well intio the fade-out...

[rcarlberg]

You've obviously never listened to their music.

And you should listen to them straight once.

[jkelman]

Speaking of the Grateful Dead, I was listening to a show from 1974 today, and the encore was Casey Jones. Now, in the first place, I don't particularly like that song, but it gets even worse with versions that around 5-6 minutes long! The actual song takes something like 2 or 3 minutes to play, but they'd insist on looping that damn chorus again and again for another 2-3 minutes! It's like "Yeah, we get the point, can you just end the song already?!". Maybe it took Jerry that long to remember what the cue for the coda was.

Actually, that's the kind of misinformation and misunderstanding that plagued the Dead through its career. Yah, sure, they took drugs (how many groups at the time didn't?). Garcia, as it turns out, as I continue to listen to more and more live shows (just snagged then19-cd complete Fillmore 1969 and can't wait to dig in), was a heavyweight...both as a thinker and a player, who just kept on getting better year after year (barring a couple years where his health was so bad he could barely stand, let alone anything else). Listen to the writing from from early days through to Blues for Allah, a real watershed for the group and, had they been thought of as anything but what they were, would have been considered far more."Slipknot" is some tough-ass writing, and Garcia's growing ablity to improvise through the changes of his material just kept on getting more impressive, as the years went on.

As for "Casey Jones"? Well, I happen to like the song, but even so,you need to consider that live, to all the real Deadheads, the Grateful Dead was considered a massive dance band (watch any films and you'll see it). Sure, perhaps listening to the chorus over and over again on record wears a little thin...but live, for their crowd, they were doing what they do, and doing it very well.

Repeated choruses can sometimes really build dramatically...and sometimes, true, they can just die....with the Dead, it was a bit of a crapshoot, but one I'm always ready to take.

[PeterG]

1930s

[GuitarGeek]

And you should listen to them straight once.

I always listen to them straight. I've never heard a "simple bluegrass band that did stuff like this:


or this:

or this:

[GuitarGeek]

A couple more Dead videos to make my point:





I'd be more into bluegrass music in general if there were more bluegrass bands who played stuff like Victim Or The Crime or Mountains Of The Moon.

[GuitarGeek]

Actually, that's the kind of misinformation and misunderstanding that plagued the Dead through its career. Yah, sure, they took drugs (how many groups at the time didn't?). Garcia, as it turns out, as I continue to listen to more and more live shows (just snagged then19-cd complete Fillmore 1969 and can't wait to dig in), was a heavyweight...both as a thinker and a player, who just kept on getting better year after year (barring a couple years where his health was so bad he could barely stand, let alone anything else). Listen to the writing from from early days through to Blues for Allah, a real watershed for the group and, had they been thought of as anything but what they were, would have been considered far more."Slipknot" is some tough-ass writing, and Garcia's growing ablity to improvise through the changes of his material just kept on getting more impressive, as the years went on.

You're talking to someone who has been into the Dead for about 26 years now, I have all the studio albums, most of the originally released live albums (Steal Your Face being the lone exception), and quite a few of the archival releases (including the first 24 Dick's Picks releases, several of the Road Trips, and the five disc Grateful Dead Movie Soundtrack). I've got a huge collection of live shows from all eras besides that, plus I actually got to see the Dead twice (once in 90 and again in 91).

Yes, Jerry was a "heavyweight" as a guitarist. He's certainly one of my favorite players, that's for sure. And he was a fine singer and songwriter. But I think he also tended to be a bit lazy about certain things. Most of the band's "psychedelic" era material got dropped because Jerry felt it was "too uncomfortable" to play, by which I think he meant that it required too much practice and rehearsal to play those songs.

There's also things like Weather Report Suite, which was only played in it's entirety for about a year before being retired, and also Blues For Allah which was only played, I believe, three times (not counting a "Blues For Allah Jam" few years later, on the occasion of the assassination of Anwar El-Sadat).

Consider also, that when the surviving original members regrouped as The Other Ones in 2003, their setlists regularly included all three of the songs from side one of Anthem Of The Sun, St Stephen, The Eleven, and Weather Report Suite, ie many of the songs that had been dropped from the repertoire years earlier. That leads me to suspect Jerry was the main instigator in moving towards "simpler" music.

Also, Slipknot (and Help On The Way for that matter) was another one that went in and out of rotation over the years. I believe I read that after 77, they played it once or twice in 78, then not again until something like 82 or 83, and then it got dropped again until 89, after which time it was played more regularly. And I have at least one show (albeit one from the 90's, I think by which time Jerry had fallen off the wagon again) where Jerry totally botches the written part of Slipknot.