I think there's something of a suggestion of hubris in Wilson's comparison of himself to Zappa in providing more proficient musicians with "those fantastic ideas". If he doesn't want to be misinterpreted he'd do well to consider using less lofty comparisons.Originally Posted by jkelman
When he spoke of "those fantastic ideas," he was referring to Frank. If you read the quote, it was strictly in reference to Frank. And if you don't see it that way, then perhaps you'll trust me when i tell you, in the conversation, it was very clear he was not putting himself on Frank's level as a composer, only that he was in a position to be able to hire better musicians than he to up his game as a writer and, as a result, deliver some of his best material.I think there's something of a suggestion of hubris in Wilson's comparison of himself to Zappa in providing more proficient musicians with "those fantastic ideas". If he doesn't want to be misinterpreted he'd do well to consider using less lofty comparisons.
Wow. About the only things you got right are he wears black and sleeps on a tour bus. Other than that, you would know this how? In my engagements with him - whether casual or formal, neither the terms anxiety-ridden or brooding are words I'd use to describe him. And when I hear about what goes on in the tour bus when they're on the road, from Theo and Adam, all I can say is you couldn't be more wrong.
He's a guy who does value his privacy. That may make it appear as if he's aloof, but the same could be then said for David Sylvian, who is also a really, really nice guy but whose introverted nature sometimes makes him seem otherwise.
Sorry, man; you can like his music, or not; but to assume things about him as a person without having any real opportunities to speak with him or those around him, and get to know him, is really all about assumptions based on perception, and not reality.
Presenting them in fanciful ways does not in any way support the suggestion that he thinks he is a genius; yes, they are sold as objects of desire for fans, but what music isn't? That he makes beautiful deluxe editions for his hardcore fans is also not a bad thing - it's called trying to make a living, and using all the materials at hand to do so in a way that everyone is satisfied. I see nothing there that suggests either the hubris or, worse, gravitas that you seem to think is associated with him. He's a down-to-earth guy with a good sense of humor, someone who certainly sees value in what he does, but doesn't have an unrealistic view of himself or his work.
He never has, nor ever would, put himself on the same level as these people. He is, indeed, just a musician - singer, performer and writer - who is trying to get better at what he does with each and every record. That's what most musicians do. This past weekend, guitarist Vic Juris was in town (and a guy who's as good as any of the big jazz names, but doesn't do the self-promotion thing too well), and as monstrously talented as he is, I've always heard him express his goal - and, in a workshop, what his class' collective goal should be - as simply trying to be better today than he was yesterday.
Plagiarize? Hardly; be a touchstone for him? Absolutely and unapologetically. He was working on those Crimson remixes when he made Grace for Drowning, and is the first to admit that it had a huge impact on him. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Well, you'll have to dig 'em up first, but I suspect they'd be happy to join yaI am not even talking about Wilson's "side projects" - I'd rather take Mariah Carey or Andrews Sisters on a trip to Mars than Storm Corrosion or Blackfield
Wow. Can't agree with you that his music is simply recycled material. And the band he has assembled gibes the music he writes an in-the-moment spontaneity that others in the prog arena sometimes lack. No, he ain't Frank, Bob, Phil, Jon or Ian, but neither is he trying to be. Most musicians want to be nothing more than themselves, and I have to tell you that, like his music or not (as you are, of course entitled), critique his music as you wish (ditto), your suggestions about him on a personal level are unsupportable and just flat-out wrong.
Speaking of the Andrew Sisters, Patty died just this year. (94)
I briefly met him about 4 years back at a signing, he was very pleasant on that occasion.
I appreciate his enthusiasm for all kinds of music. From reading his interviews over the years I gather he enjoys some of the same 60s/70s pop artists that I love, but don't get too much attention on sites like this. So no, I don't see him as a new Zappa by any means, but he has virtues of his own.
What about Uncle Buck?
MV5BMTY4MjQwMTQ5MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDA1MDAxMw@@._V1._SX640_SY725_.jpg
Silly thread IMO. I don't think Steven is really the new anything except the new Steven Wilson. These kinds of comparisons lend to bashing by fans of the older artists. People tend to always want to compare newer artists to those of previous generations, but it is often a conflictive subject. I get the musician piece of this, but musically I think there is little to compare between the two. For me, though I admire Zappa, I was never a fan of his music for the most part. Wilson on the other hand.....
Nicely said!
Oh, if only ... but then you went on and on.
None of my business, but would Tormato be by any chance close enough to your heart so as to be used as your nick name? The reason I am asking because Tormato is one my favorite Yes albums - which is unusual among the Yes followers.
Last edited by LongFrog; 05-11-2013 at 01:22 PM. Reason: missed a word
Good post, Kelman. Thanks, as usual, for the insight and clarity.
I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.
I don't see the comparison to FZ at all. SW strikes me as a creative guy writing prolifically. No need for comparisons - just keep on doing your own thing & the world moves on just fine!
The first e-mail address I took was tormato@ (eworld, aol, can't remember) something way back in the day (mid 90s) because I happened to be listening to it at the time I was setting it up. So it stuck. I actually like the album quite a bit.
The thing that strikes me the most about this thread is how fragile and defensive some Zappa fans appear to be. Sheesh. Lighten up, Francis.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart
Yes, that's how I parsed it - as a reference to Frank, but in a comparison of his position to that of Frank. There's a suggestion of hubris even if it isn't present.
I absolutely do trust you - I have only your quotes to go on, not the full conversation including the non-verbal contexts. Perhaps it is because Steven is such a fan of music that he has a tendency to verbally put himself in the position where he can seem arrogant in a detached textual quote. Although he may well remain utterly humble (with just enough ego to be able to perform music to an audience) when he makes these comparisons, along with comparisons of his former bandmates' abilities to those of his current ones and says that this change is why he's able to make 'his best material' he does appear somewhat arrogant.
Personally, while I think that Raven is very good I don't think it yet exceeds the overall quality of songs on several of his former projects' releases no matter the comparative levels of technical ability of the contributing musicians. He may think so, but I wonder if he will continue to do so once it is no longer his most recent work.
Maybe he could become Frank Sinatra instead.
"It was a cruel song, but fair."-Roger Waters
Or Frank Einstein
Well, you'll just have to believe me that, when we were having the conversation, there was absolutely no suggestion of hubris. What more can I say? You're reading things into the statement that are simply untrue. Sorry....
Thanks for the trust; still, I find it interesting how two people can look at the same words and see something entirely different. He spoke, when it came to writing this material, of a couple of issues; (1) it's not material the guys in PT would have wanted to play; and (2) that playing with his current band has raised his game, which ain't arrogance, it's what a lot of musicians do to shake themselves up - put them in a game where they're surrounded by better players. I don't see that in any way other than humble. You see otherwise? Like I said, it's interesting but I'll just qualify, again, that there's nothing arrogant. He was, in fact, very clear about NOT insulting the members of PT, to the extent that, on the day it was published and he saw what was written, he asked me to make a slight revision so it would not sound that way. That was, imo, admirable, as he could just as easily have left it in.
Time will tell. Personally, while I do like PT a lot, I like him solo better. Maybe it's because of what I do and who I primarily write for; maybe it's because I'm a lapsed ex-pro player myself (nowhere near the level of these guys, to be clear, not even remotely in their universe!), but I see, in many cases, the best music as being a combination of great writing and a band that can bring their absolute best to it. The live material from Insurgentes and GfD, imo, way trumps the studio versions, for that very reason.
But viva la difference!
Cheers!
John
When SW writes something on the level of "Greggery Peccary", then he will be the next FZ. I don't see that happening.
Well to be fair I haven't heard anything from SW anywhere near the Zappa level, but that's not a slam- I can't think of anybody else in rock at the minute who is, at least in terms of acts who have wider exposure.
What is this mystical "Zappa level" you are talking about? There is levels in music? What is this? A video game?
Nintendo's "The Legend of Zappa"??What is this mystical "Zappa level" you are talking about? There is levels in music? What is this? A video game?
But seriously, can someone show me a quote where SW says he is at the same "level" as Zappa?
No, because he never said that. The only comparison I see is they both had fairly large ensembles full of great players. When it comes to music there's no comparison though.
Zappa level? Yeah, it's one that several notches harder than most any other rock band. Like a guy might think he's a bad-ass because he can play drums like the guy from Rush. That is a ceiling you can hit. Then you poke your head through the ceiling and realize way up above you is another level of technique and compositional prowess you were not aware of in the rock world. Zappa's up there, nearly alone.
^^^Good analogy.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks