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Thread: Hans Zimmer, Epic Music and the Just Plain Horrible

  1. #1

    Hans Zimmer, Epic Music and the Just Plain Horrible

    I've been a fan of soundtracks my entire life, probably as long as I've been a fan of music. From the triumphant music of Korngold, Rozsa and Williams to the eclectic work of Goldsmith for Planet of the Apes, I've always been in love with this genre of music. Recently it's been the work of Howard Shore that's caught my ear. What I find both surprising and disturbing these days is the dark rise of Hans Zimmer and his not-quite-melodic music. As a matter of fact, I'm not quite sure what his music is except for a collection of moody cues. I find most if not all of his music utterly unmemorable. I know it's there because it's filling up the aural spaces during a film but if you asked me to remember even one melody from one moment of his scores I would be hard-pressed to do so. Some music sticks with you even after one listen. With Zimmer there just isn't a lot of "there" there.

    If I had anything to blame for the appreciation of Hans Zimmer it's probably computer and video games whose soundtracks are there to simply create a mood (and to be able to be looped after two minutes). Rarely does game music rise to the level of something that can be listened-to in its own right unlike many of what I would consider the classic scores. I also blame video games for the rise of what is being called "Epic Music" (at least that's what it's called on several YouTube channels that feature it). This is usually, if not always, stock music created for trailers and such by some production music company. If nothing else it is comparable to the work of Zimmer in that it evokes a mood which is quickly forgotten immediately after listening. It's music that melts in your mouth giving you a quick hit of energy but is soon gone leaving very little aftertaste. Overblown, over-the-top, screaming and chugging into your ears -- you can almost see the level "boss" and his seemingly insurmountable hitpoint total. This is music?

    I know people complain about the overblown nature of much Prog Rock -- too bombastic, too romantic, perhaps too dripping with syrupy melodies. But it amazes me that people can like the sort of rubber-stamp scores put out by "Epic Music" companies and people like Hans Zimmer. Give me something I can wrap my listening around -- anything other than drums, drums, electronics, drums, more drums, beating drums, more electronics and strings. Cue the brass section stab.

    One last thing: Trans Siberian Orchestra. Really? Let's cram every Heavy Metal power-chord cliche into a piece of music and see what happens. Again, unmemorable.
    Last edited by Splicer; 04-07-2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: grammatical corrections

  2. #2
    "eclectic work of Goldsmith for Planet of the Apes"

    This is a favorite of mine as well and I'm a HUGE fan of Ennio Morricone's '60s & '70s soundtracks.

    I don't play video games so I'm not that educated on your topic, but Hans Zimmer doesn't impress me in the least. Most soundtracks these days (and even thre movies) seem throw away to me. Of course there are exceptions, particularly in the indie world.

  3. #3
    I see it as some bizarre rebellion against the whole idea of music for its own sake. It's anti-music to satisfy a director who doesn't want the images challenged by a melody that's memorable.

  4. #4
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    I just recently burned the DaVinci Code by Zimmer and Batman Begins Begins by Zimmer and James Newton Howard...I have listened to neither yet but now that you bring this up...I will shortly. I dont know, you description of "drums, drums, electronics, drums, more drums, beating drums, more electronics and strings" sounds pretty ok to me.

    When I listend to soundstracks, and I have many, I try my best to listen to them out of context of the movie they are associated with...I wouldnt have the DaVinci Code (which I thought was kind of a shitty movie if I remember) if I was constantly thinking of the movie it was from. Your description above, as vague as it is, sounds promising.

    Any opinions on Carter Burwell? He does the Coen brothers movies. I just listened to his soundtrack to "The Chamber" (not a Coen brothers movie I dont think) and loved it!!

    best
    Michael
    If it ain't acousmatique-It's crap

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    ...btw...have you heard Trent Reznor's soundtrack to "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"? Pure electronic, pure mood and atmosphere, not very melodic...and works EXTREMELY well as a stand alone!

    bes
    Michael
    If it ain't acousmatique-It's crap

  6. #6
    Member Oreb's Avatar
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    I agree: Zimmer's music is dreadfully dull, but I think to generally is well-suited to the bland, unmemorable movies for which he's hired.

    Other than Shore's defiantly epic music for the Tolkien movies there is very little these days that I find as satisfying as the music of genuine artists like Alex North, Jerry Fielding, Jerry Goldsmith and Ennio Morricone.

    John Williams is also still capable of surprises: for all the predicatbility of Lincoln and War Horse, he can produce genuinely interesting, engaging stuff like Tintin. IMO his score for Close Encounters of the Third Kind is, with Elmer Bernstein's To Kill a Mockingbird, and Barry's On Her Majesty's Secret Service, the best score ever.

    Does it matter that this waste of time is what makes a life for you?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    I see it as some bizarre rebellion against the whole idea of music for its own sake. It's anti-music to satisfy a director who doesn't want the images challenged by a melody that's memorable.
    Hold on... music written to picture is NOT music for music's sake nor has it ever been music for music's sake. Quite frankly I see no reason why it should be and as far as I am concerned any music which demands attention over the plot and sub-text is bad film music (regardless of how well it may work alone).

    I agree with you that Zimmer is crapola, but then, very few film composers have ever been able to write music for music's sake anyway. Most of them are learned conduits to the imagination and creations of the greats. Guys like Elfman and his lot are able to quote and borrow from these with impunity because so few people watching movies are familiar with the source in the first place. Instead you get bad Hindemith and watered down Holst and the average film consumer is impressed, insofar as they are even aware of the music at all.

    As you are a big fan of the genre then you are probably aware that very little of the music that is used in film is the result of a composer given free hand to come up with their interpertation of the film's sub-text. Instead they are among the single most limited creators on the project whose ideas are always held hostage by fx editors, mixers, producers, directors and their ilk.
    Nowadays they are held hostage by the ubiquitous sound-alike proponants. If any composer is looking for a vehicle of self-expression film is certainly NOT the place.

    Here is what Copland, a composer who was totally capable of writing music for music's sake (unlike the average film composer) has to say about it:

    "There is no sense in denying the subordinate position the composer fills. After all, film music makes sense only if it helps the film; no matter how good, distinguished, or successful, the music must be secondary in importance to the story being told on the screen. Essentially there is nothing about the movie medium to rule out any composer with a dramatic imagination. But the man who insists on complete self-expression had better stay home and write symphonies. He will never be happy in Hollywood."
    Last edited by fictionmusic; 04-07-2013 at 06:56 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Oreb View Post
    I agree: Zimmer's music is dreadfully dull, but I think to generally is well-suited to the bland, unmemorable movies for which he's hired.

    Other than Shore's defiantly epic music for the Tolkien movies there is very little these days that I find as satisfying as the music of genuine artists like Alex North, Jerry Fielding, Jerry Goldsmith and Ennio Morricone.

    John Williams is also still capable of surprises: for all the predicatbility of Lincoln and War Horse, he can produce genuinely interesting, engaging stuff like Tintin. IMO his score for Close Encounters of the Third Kind is, with Elmer Bernstein's To Kill a Mockingbird, and Barry's On Her Majesty's Secret Service, the best score ever.


    I agree. Williams' score for TinTin is especially amazing. He really flexes his muscle during the opening credit roll.

    Credits, as well as theme music for TV, are among the few places where composers get to approach music for music's sake. I also think Hermann's score for "North by Northwest" exemplary, as is his opening credit theme for "The Trouble with Harry".

    Fred Steiner's music for Rocky and Bullwinkle and Perry Mason rate highly as well. These guys are able to orchestrate their own pieces (unlike Zimmer and Elfman and their lot) and have that aspect as much of their style as the themeatic material.

  9. #9
    Zimmer isn't even a composer- he's an industry. He has underlings that ghost-write that same stuff for him, and more that now ape his style openly that all work under the Media Ventures umbrella. From a technical standpoint he made great strides in mixing real instruments and samples that have now gone on to strangle the entire industry that now must have the HOLLYWOOD SOUND!!!!!!! I remember actually liking some of his early work, but now he just shits the same four slow, moody, minor key chords with big-ass french horns and makes millions. He'd be the first to admit he has no real talent to speak of, so he's laughing all the way to the bank. At least Danny Elfman did something interesting before he became a hack parody of himself ((and he does occasionally do something interesting by accident, like Delores Claiborne). I think when Jerry Goldsmith died it was all over myself. Get off my lawn!!

  10. #10
    I am going to have to listen to John Williams' score for Tin Tin now that it's been mentioned above. I've always found much of Williams to be derivative of this composer or that (unlike Horner who is completely derivative in every possible way) but he's certainly able to write proper melodies and harmonies.

    I will add that they better keep Zimmer away from any of the new Star Wars films. I don't even want to think about what he would do to that.
    Last edited by Splicer; 04-07-2013 at 08:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Oh hold on a minute, Zimmer's done some great stuff -- Millennium (1992) and K2 (1991) are masterful, and I thought his soundtrack to The Lion King (1994) was pretty damn sweet too. The thing about soundtrack work is you're never really working for yourself, the director (and everyone else on the project!) has final cut and often/usually you're creating cues to specific action that may not translate to stand-alone listening. It's not fair to judge the composer for the director's tin ear, in many cases.

    Composers like soundtrack work though because they get paid up front -- and sometimes even get points (a percentage of the gross).

    That said, far and away my favorite movie composers are Thomas Newman, Nino Rota and Miklós Rózsa.

    Fucking John Williams is a hack -- stole everything good ever attributed to him

  12. #12
    I know that Edgar Froese of Tangerine Dream had a good, and pretty accurate, semi-broken English response when asked in the 80s about which he preferred doing -- studio and live albums or soundtracks. "For the soundtracks, we get better paid."

    Back in my musician days, I actually did a soundtrack to an indy film. I'll admit that it's not always easy to come up with something that a) doesn't get in the way of the action, b) the director likes, and c) you like as a stand-alone artistic statement. That being said, the good ones can pull it off. Zimmer's...okay, I guess. Nothing super memorable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fictionmusic View Post
    I also think Hermann's score for North by Northwest exemplary...
    Danny Elfman's entire movie-scoring technique is based upon the main title theme to that film - the same eight bars over and over again, with almost no change, and so cleverly orchestrated it never gets boring and you barely notice. Here it is, complete with the great Saul Bass titles:

    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 04-13-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Progtopia View Post
    b) the director likes,
    I remember Wendy Carlos lamenting the fact that some of the stuff she did for Stanley Kubrick didn't get used because Kubrick had gotten so used to the "temp track" that he used while editing the film before Wendy's pieces were ready that sometimes he felt that nothing else fit the scene. I think she said there were several bits that got left out of both A Clockwork Orange and The Shining. And I gather Kubrick isn't the only director who sometimes has that problem (well, in Stanley's case, had because he of course is no longer with us).

    And then you've got Tony Banks, who was contracted to do the score for 2010, but no matter what he did, the director wasn't happy, so he got fired. I think he eventually got tired of doing soundtracks because there was always one form of aggravation or another that he didn't like dealing with (such as having a song he did with Fish get passed over as a single in favor of a Roger Daltrey song).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Danny Elfman's entire movie-scoring technique is based upon the main title theme to that film - the same eight bars over and over again, with almost no change, and so cleverly orchestrated it never gets boring and you barely notice. Here it is, complete with the great Saul Bass titles:

    Indeed! Of course, unlike Elfman and other composers of his ilk, Hermann is a masterful orchestrator and would never allow anyone else to orchestrate hiw work. I read once that he also demanded total artistic freedom in spotting cues and writing themes, not something at all typical.

  16. #16



    the piece called the Station has a motif he used throughout the film (not the main theme phrase that he also incorporates into the cue) but the little staccato figure @ 8:03 that I absolutely love. It gets transformed throughout according to the mood (but not too often like the annoying leitmotif that Lawernce of Arabia overused).
    I'm still not sure that Hermann's music stands on its own, (or should I say, he does such a masteful job of writing to picture it seems incomplete without the image that it was originally written to) but it is a pleasure to hear that level of craft and creativity.


    Comparing Zimmer or Elfman to someone like Hermann seems unfair; very few film composers could keep up.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I remember Wendy Carlos lamenting the fact that some of the stuff she did for Stanley Kubrick didn't get used because Kubrick had gotten so used to the "temp track" that he used while editing the film before Wendy's pieces were ready that sometimes he felt that nothing else fit the scene. I think she said there were several bits that got left out of both A Clockwork Orange and The Shining. And I gather Kubrick isn't the only director who sometimes has that problem (well, in Stanley's case, had because he of course is no longer with us).
    Well, the good thing about Stanley is that when he fell in love with the temp track he just used it (obviously to famously great effect in 2001). Many directors fall in love with the temp track and then basically just force their composers to write it again, in a sort of parody.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Oh hold on a minute, Zimmer's done some great stuff -- Millennium (1992) and K2 (1991) are masterful, and I thought his soundtrack to The Lion King (1994) was pretty damn sweet too. The thing about soundtrack work is you're never really working for yourself, the director (and everyone else on the project!) has final cut and often/usually you're creating cues to specific action that may not translate to stand-alone listening. It's not fair to judge the composer for the director's tin ear, in many cases.
    I love his soundtrack for ' The Lion King ' too. Really fits the story well.

  19. #19
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squigelyfox View Post
    Really fits the story well.
    Yes, and here you have hit upon a very important consideration. The soundtrack composer can go off on his own and create music that pleases him (or her), but if it doesn't fit the picture then it's a failure for its one and only stated purpose. I can think of several examples where the music seemed wildly inappropriate and/or intrusive, and it pretty much ruined the film.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigelyfox View Post
    I love his soundtrack for ' The Lion King ' too. Really fits the story well.
    That's one of the early things he did that I did like. Just goes to show the guy definitely isn't a congenital hack. He's just drifted into a life of unrepentant hackery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    Just goes to show the guy definitely isn't a congenital hack. He's just drifted into a life of unrepentant hackery.
    That describes 99% of Hollywood's output.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    That describes 99% of Hollywood's output.
    Good point.

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