When did Neal Morse jump the shark?

[Frumious B]

...he might as well be singing about Pothead Pixies.

I'd buy this. Sign me up.

"Pothead pixies in your hand
show you 'round this wasted land.
But there's no Zeppelin Bonham beat
Just the trudging on your feet."

Make it happen.

[Man In The Mountain]

Wow, I'm surprised of the hate Snow seems to be getting around here.

Yeah, if you notice on my post earlier, I didn't include SNOW on my list of great Morse CDs. Though, it propably should be on any such list, I just never personally connected with the album. Gone are the wonderful quirky proggy bits, that leave way to a very lyrical heavy and short song oriented offering. For me it's hard to put the lyrics aside... and I think lyrically it teeters on a fence of wanting to be an all-out Christian rock album and holding back by biting his tounge. I also associate it with his departure from Spock's. So, I think the album has baggage, and I can't just relax and enjoy it like all the others. But, I think it's a very important album in his catalog, maybe the most interesting to analyse as well.

Certainly the turning point of his prog career. Shark jumping? For a lot of his fan base, probably so.

[Man In The Mountain]

I might take out "day for night" and put in "snow" instead. That is if I had to limit it to just five. DFN is very good but it's a bit poppy and not very representative of classic SB imo.

I dunno, I think Day For Night has aged very well, for me at least. It's a fun album, melodic, and very quirky, with lots of tricky playing. OK, maybe still the weakest in the first 5 albums, but I continue to listen to it, rather than SNOW which I only pull out once in a blue moon for curiosity.

[ItalProgRules]

For me, it's not just the lame lyrics and weak pop songs that ruin SNOW, it's all that plus the fact that he ripped the story off from various strands of TOMMY, the movie POWDER and a dash of The Lamb. I felt insulted that he really thought no one was going to notice.

Add in the blatant padding of album #2 (hey, we have room to fill, let's give Ryo a completely out of place live keyboard solo that has no bearing on a damn thing we've recorded on this here double album."

Uggh. Just ugh. SNOW is Prog at its worst, IMHO.

[LeFrog]

I'm not an MD, so the previous poster may be able to answer this, but aren't there degrees to this? Did your cousin's baby require open-heart surgery? Or is a hole in the heart just a hole in the heart, they're all to the same degree. What I read about NM (I went and googled it ) is that his daughter's condition was severe, life-threatening, and required open-heart surgery. Don't know if that's the case, or if all holes-in-the-heart (or whatever) are the same. And therefore hers would have healed up fine regardless.

I'm not a cardiologist, but clearly there are degrees to this condition. It's also hard to comment specifically on NM's daughter without having all the details, and especially if the details we have are given by NM himself. What I can tell you is that many cases can heal by themselves within the first 3 years of life, but will require open heart surgery if they don't.

[3LockBox]

The Light. Specifically, the “F.U./I’m Sorry” bit, where he tries to build up some righteous anger, yet just sounds like a whiny, petulant teenager whose parents didn’t get him the violent videogame he wanted for his birthday. It was at that point I knew I could not take him seriously (though really, “Mr. Velasco” and the Catfish Man should have been enough of a clue).

You beat me to it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the albums that came after The Light, but other than the song Go The Way You Go I have no use for the album. Neal Morse's singing style, keyboards and lyrics are all nerdy as hell, but the guy is a great composer and while NDV-led Spock's Beard was okay (though patchy) the Neal-era has a certain prog grandeur about it that latter-day SB will never have. Listening to Spock's Beard was the aural equivalent to watching the Big Bang Theory - a show that I love, but they're still dorks.

Happy Days jumped the shark when it went "live before a studio audience" for season 3.

Out went the snazzy, American Graffiti-inspired sets (check out the ep where Ritchie and Potsie go to the burlesque show for a great example) and in with the "character walks into the scene and mugs for a full minute while the audience claps like seals."

Completely O/T, but completely true. Those first seasons captured the nostalgia of Eisenhower-era America. By season four it went off the rails and turned into The Fonzie Show. You had to remind yourself constantly that it was supposed to be taking place in the '50s (the only hint being a dude in a leather jacket and pompadour haricut), you were expected to believe that Chuck never existed, and when one cast member goes on vacation, the entire cast goes on vacation. And of course you were supposed to believe they were in a band and that Anson Williams could sing. My wife lands on that show every now and then and I find it completely unwatchable. But then again, a lot of popular '70s TV sitcoms are that way for me.

[Poisoned Youth]

I never see any criticism of the Christian lyrics in Glass Hammer's work like I do of Morse's.

I assume that's because GH are lesser known and because they don't focus exclusively on it.

But an album like IF is just loaded with Christian lyrics and I don't think I've ever seen a complaint here at all.

Consider that Glass Hammer is more subtle, and that Spock's Beard was not Christian (declared) at all. They had a pretty big fan base. Then the lead singer finds Jesus, leaves the band, and starts creating music that's Christian. I think there's some differences there.

Add to this that Morse's lyrics and story concepts have been blunt to say the least. Sola Scriptura was probably the most controversial of these.

[ProgPariah77]

Others have said it, but add my voice to the chorus (?) of those who maintain that Neal has not (in fact) "jumped the shark." There are some of his works that I enjoy more than others, but we've yet to get a "Love Beach" from him ... *ducks*

[Garden Dreamer]

How about the fact that there is now a "Thoughts, Part FIVE" on "Momentum?" Only kidding, those "Thoughts" tunes are usually some of my favorite stuff from Morse/SB and I don't mind if he keeps revisiting it.

[Don Arnold]

....Gone are the wonderful quirky proggy bits, that leave way to a very lyrical heavy and short song oriented offering....

When I hear Snow, I actually hear many proggy bits - perhaps not on the same quirky plane as earlier SB recordings, but IMO they're there. Because the songs are mostly short, the proggy bits tend to be likewise brief.

For me, it's not just the lame lyrics and weak pop songs that ruin SNOW, it's all that plus the fact that he ripped the story off from various strands of TOMMY, the movie POWDER and a dash of The Lamb. I felt insulted that he really thought no one was going to notice.

I imagine NM wasn't thinking he was going to fleece the prog community! Also, I suspect there are many concept albums that have bits or themes taken from what has occured before. Same with movies really.

Add in the blatant padding of album #2 (hey, we have room to fill, let's give Ryo a completely out of place live keyboard solo that has no bearing on a damn thing we've recorded on this here double album." Uggh. Just ugh. SNOW is Prog at its worst, IMHO.

I actually think disc #2 is great! (imho, of course ) To my ears, there is this build-up in both the storyline and music that leads into the conclusion. And including a Ryo solo is brilliant. Snow goes out on the town and winds up at a Spock's Beard concert!

Obviously, you'll find me on the "like" side of the Snow ledger.

[Man In The Mountain]

I actually think disc #2 is great! (imho, of course ) To my ears, there is this build-up in both the storyline and music that leads into the conclusion. And including a Ryo solo is brilliant. Snow goes out on the town and winds up at a Spock's Beard concert!

That's how I take it as well, Snow ends up at a Spock's Beard concert, where he's drinking and drugging and then breaks down. Which could also be a reflection of Neal himself.

I also prefer side 2 of SNOW. It's more instrumental, and not bogged down in this "Love Beyond Words" wink wink crap.

[Rufus]

ItalProgdDosn'trule's post is proof that he has either never heard Snow or the story is too intellectual for him¡ It's has clear as day as where Rio`s live solo fits into the story ¡

[sukrat]

I always thought of " Snow" as a tribute of some kind to Lamb. Singer even leaves soon afterwards

[nycsteve]

Didn't people like Sinatra and Tony Bennett sing about the same things all the time too? I can phase out the Jesus lyrics as easily as I can phase out lyrics about gals, etc. I know the "American Songbooks" or whatever that they sing from are largely great, but still it's often the same subject matter over and over. It just doesn't bother me. Not that all Neal Morse is great, but the lyrics just don't seem like they should be a real concern. I actually find it funny more than anything else, and find weird little phrases like "sleeping Jesus" running through my head, morphing into obscene phrases, etc. I certainly don't take it seriously. I'm happy for him, but to me he might as well be singing about Pothead Pixies.

My interest in the subject of gals will always out last that of Jesus. And its differant gals not the same one over and over. And even you say, "gals,etc" The etc intones a variety of subjects , a concept lacking in Morse's later writing.

[Plasmatopia]

Add in the blatant padding of album #2 (hey, we have room to fill, let's give Ryo a completely out of place live keyboard solo that has no bearing on a damn thing we've recorded on this here double album."

I made a similar point in the "filler" thread: there is no logical reason to pad anything out. If you figure out how long Ryo's keyboard solo lasts, edit that out of the second disc, and slap it all back on a CD-R it doesn't amount to enough to make a difference.

[Mikhael]

Put me down as another who felt "Snow" was the death-knell for my interest in the band. Musically, it was, well, mostly boring to me. Not what I expected, and it didn't fill the niche I was looking for. "V" was much better.

[LeFrog]

That's how I take it as well, Snow ends up at a Spock's Beard concert, where he's drinking and drugging and then breaks down.

Yes, it's always been my take as well. I always thought I'd made that up to make that Ryo solo fit in the story, so it's nice to see I'm not alone!

[TheLongshot]

For him to jump the shark, there would have to be a dropoff, and as far as I can see, he's as consistent as he's ever been. Can't say I care for the lyrical content of his later albums, but the quality is still there.

I can understand some marking Snow down a few points, but I don't think it is a jumping the shark moment since it was only a dip in a pretty prolific career.

[Jefferson James]

For whatever it's worth, I consider the guy to be one of the best overall songwriters I've ever had the pleasure of hearing -- all eras have good things I love and enjoy. He's too prolific for me to keep up with, however; his albums are dense and quirky and sport tons of details and left-turns and all kinds of cool asides. It would almost be a full-time job to try to digest and figure out everything the guy has written so I pick and choose my moments and the music keeps me happy.

I absolutely love "Snow" -- both discs -- and "Wind at My Back" is just a ridiculously amazing song, the pinnacle of Neal's writing as far as I'm concerned. That song is gorgeous, lyrically and melodically; I love it. In fact, I find "Snow" to have a tangible Neil Finn/Crowded House vibe to it. I've often wondered if Neal was a fan of that stuff.

With Transatlantic, for me "Bridge Across Forever" is just about perfect; there is not a duff moment on that album and that's saying a lot considering the length. This is one album where I have dug in deep -- it's taken me years -- and the rewards still pay off. The title track is so beautiful, and "Duel with the Devil" is my favorite prog epic at any given moment.

I still need to hear "Seeds of Gold" -- that old time constraint thing rears its ugly head -- and I'm way behind on my Nealistening(tm) but hopefully all in good time.

One thing that makes me woozy in a bad way is that chorus of "Dancing With Eternal Glory" from "Whirlwind"; I love the verses, the interlocking parts, but the chorus reminds me of something I'd rather forget. It worked better for me in a live context but not much -- it's very syrupy and very contemporary Christian and I just don't like the cliche chord progression. That said, I am not surprised it connects with a lot of people because it is very catchy and Neal delivers the lyrics as he always does, with conviction, passion and pure heart. Stupidly, I did a demo wherein I took the chorus of "Rose Colored Glasses" ("...but on the dark side there are times of suffering") and substituted it for the "Eternal Glory" chorus and it fits, musically.

Jumped the shark? A resounding NO from this corner of the world.

[ScottAM]

This "shark" phrase still doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it sure conjures fun images of The Fonz jumping his motorcycle is his leather jacket over a horde of great white sharks...maybe some of those ones who can literally jump out of water to catch their prey!

And the idea of Neal becoming a parody of himself doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either. As many here have noted, he's one of the most consistently prolific and accomplished contemporary prog musicians out there. To raise such a question after his latest release "Momentum" seems pointless to me, as most everyone agrees it's one of his strongest releases ever. If the question is really "when did his 'formula' grow old for you?" then that would have been a long time ago for people who are bothered by that. The lyrical change-over speaks for itself. So, I'm not sure where we're left at this point in terms of the question?

I guess we could say that Neal's still jumping the Leviathan with his singular style, which is only a positive thing the way I see it. Happily for me, I love his style and am continuing to lap it up.

Oh, and Snow disc 1 AND 2 rock!

[mnprogger]

For me it was Snow. I gradually lost all interest in SB and Neal after Snow. I still like Feel Euphoria but that's as far as I went. I still enjoy the first two TA albums too. So that's the extent of my interest in Neal.

more or less my feeling, although I'm still not ready to rule out the Ted Leonard-Beard. But as far as Neal, Flying Colors was okay, but the last Transatlantic album and every solo record he's made since going heavily religious has not worked for me.

[Rufus]

For whatever it's worth, I consider the guy to be one of the best overall songwriters I've ever had the pleasure of hearing -- all eras have good things I love and enjoy. He's too prolific for me to keep up with, however; his albums are dense and quirky and sport tons of details and left-turns and all kinds of cool asides. It would almost be a full-time job to try to digest and figure out everything the guy has written so I pick and choose my moments and the music keeps me happy.

I absolutely love "Snow" -- both discs -- and "Wind at My Back" is just a ridiculously amazing song, the
pinnacle of Neal's writing as far as I'm concerned. That song is gorgeous, lyrically and melodically; I love it. In fact, I find "Snow" to have a tangible Neil Finn/Crowded House vibe to it. I've often wondered if Neal was a fan of that stuff.

With Transatlantic, for me "Bridge Across Forever" is just about perfect; there is not a duff moment on that album and that's saying a lot considering the length. This is one album where I have dug in deep -- it's taken me years -- and the rewards still pay off. The title track is so beautiful, and "Duel with the Devil" is my favorite prog epic at any given moment.

I still need to hear "Seeds of Gold" -- that old time constraint thing rears its ugly head -- and I'm way behind on my Nealistening(tm) but hopefully all in good time.

One thing that makes me woozy in a bad way is that chorus of "Dancing With Eternal Glory" from "Whirlwind"; I love the verses, the interlocking parts, but the chorus reminds me of something I'd rather forget. It worked better for me in a live context but not much -- it's very syrupy and very contemporary Christian and I just don't like the cliche chord progression. That said, I am not surprised it connects with a lot of people because it is very catchy and Neal delivers the lyrics as he always does, with conviction, passion and pure heart. Stupidly, I did a demo wherein I took the chorus of "Rose Colored Glasses" ("...but on the dark side there are times of suffering") and substituted it for the "Eternal Glory" chorus and it fits, musically.


Jumped the shark? A resounding NO from this corner of the world.

100 % spot on post!


The only finale to a concept album that could match 'Wind in my Back '
is Tommy's' 'Were Not Gonna Take It/see me Feel Me ', Mike Portnoy said the same .

[Patelena396]

For whatever it's worth, I consider the guy to be one of the best overall songwriters I've ever had the pleasure of hearing -- all eras have good things I love and enjoy. He's too prolific for me to keep up with, however; his albums are dense and quirky and sport tons of details and left-turns and all kinds of cool asides. It would almost be a full-time job to try to digest and figure out everything the guy has written so I pick and choose my moments and the music keeps me happy.

I absolutely love "Snow" -- both discs -- and "Wind at My Back" is just a ridiculously amazing song, the pinnacle of Neal's writing as far as I'm concerned. That song is gorgeous, lyrically and melodically; I love it. In fact, I find "Snow" to have a tangible Neil Finn/Crowded House vibe to it. I've often wondered if Neal was a fan of that stuff.

With Transatlantic, for me "Bridge Across Forever" is just about perfect; there is not a duff moment on that album and that's saying a lot considering the length. This is one album where I have dug in deep -- it's taken me years -- and the rewards still pay off. The title track is so beautiful, and "Duel with the Devil" is my favorite prog epic at any given moment.

I still need to hear "Seeds of Gold" -- that old time constraint thing rears its ugly head -- and I'm way behind on my Nealistening(tm) but hopefully all in good time.

One thing that makes me woozy in a bad way is that chorus of "Dancing With Eternal Glory" from "Whirlwind"; I love the verses, the interlocking parts, but the chorus reminds me of something I'd rather forget. It worked better for me in a live context but not much -- it's very syrupy and very contemporary Christian and I just don't like the cliche chord progression. That said, I am not surprised it connects with a lot of people because it is very catchy and Neal delivers the lyrics as he always does, with conviction, passion and pure heart. Stupidly, I did a demo wherein I took the chorus of "Rose Colored Glasses" ("...but on the dark side there are times of suffering") and substituted it for the "Eternal Glory" chorus and it fits, musically.

Jumped the shark? A resounding NO from this corner of the world.

I absolutely agree. Neal Morse has not jumped the shark at all. All due respect, this is actually a pretty silly thread.

[arj]

I was so so so looking forward to Snow and tried really hard. I loved the packaging, the artwork and the bonus disc offer (with SSOTS no less). When I realised after several listens that my favourite songs were Carie and Looking for Answers I wondered if NDV should sing more. I was subsequently gutted when Neal left, because I was such a fan of pre Snow SB - and some of Neal's solo tracks (especially The Change - I love that track!).
Since then I still look forward to new SB releases but not NM releases. It's not the lyrics for me, just the sense of repetition - his music has just become a bit too overly earnest for me.
Having said that, I think that Momentum is a step in the right direction, and I really like Flying Colours. My favourite post SB Neal track? Back to the Garden - and I think it is a bonus track?
I would not go so far as to say he is the Fonz yet, but if I had to choose between a SB gig and a NM gig, I would go SB at the moment - but I wish I had seen them with Nick. Or Neal for that matter. Bloody hell you guys are spoilt!!
No chance of them coming to Australia I guess.
This thread may be not be politically correct, but I am surprised that so many people agree with me and cite Snow as a common denominator.

[Vic2012]

but the last Transatlantic album and every solo record he's made since going heavily religious has not worked for me.

As much as I dig the first 2 TA albums one thing that's always bothered me is that Neal dominates Transatlantic (which is either a good thing, or bad thing depending on how you feel about Neal/SB). I didn't bother with the third TA because I sensed it was just gonna be another Neal Morse, Christian Prog album. And when I heard that it was one, long, CD length epic I just ran in the opposite direction. I know that most of Neals devoted fans don't understand this, but to me by the time of SB's "V" and the first TA album, it was all getting very repetitious and cliche. Just the same, I looked forward to Snow. I liked it at first but then it just became tedious, and a chore to listen to. When I heard Neal was leaving Spocks I was kind of disappointed but at the same time I was curious to hear what Spocks was going to be without Neal. I was surprised at how much I liked Feel Euphoria. It was different, but I thought most of it was very good, although most Beard fanatics didn't like it (that was the impression I got on their fan forum anyway). Then they did Octane, which I bought because everyone raved about it. I didn't like it and got rid of it. That was it for me. The funny thing is I still like to keep up with Beard news even though I haven't heard anything after Octane.

I actually had Testimony for a couple weeks but I ended up having to get rid of it because disk 2 had a defect. Took it back to the store, replaced the album, same thing. Disk 2 had the same defect on the same track. That was it for me. My taste in music was changing too so I just never looked back. It wasn't only my taste in music (or that I was just bored with Neal's style) my feelings about Neal's belief system were changing as well. The issue I've always had with evangelical, Christian contemporary artists (this includes Kerry Livgren too) is that all they write about is the same topic. It gets old after a while. I mostly just got bored with "third wave" prog. I've gone through the same boredom with Flower Kings as well. This music really hasn't stood the test of time with me. What has endured are the 70s classics for me.