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Thread: Did Bruford copy Giles??

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    Did Bruford copy Giles??

    Listening to I Talk to the Wind and Wake of Poseidon title track and it really becomes apparent. Although I rarely listen to 68-69 Yes so maybe I am wrong??

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    Member SunshipVoyager1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHISH99 View Post
    Listening to I Talk to the Wind and Wake of Poseidon title track and it really becomes apparent. Although I rarely listen to 68-69 Yes so maybe I am wrong??
    I wouldn't go so far as to say "copy"... Bill had a jazzy style that was pretty well established on the first two Yes albums. Michael and Bill were both heavily jazz influenced players of the same generation of British musicians, so certain stylistic crossover is inevitable, I think. You can hear similar jazzy trademarks in the playing of Jon Hiseman, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Ian Wallace and many more.

    It was his ear for an odd meter and his ringing snare that really set Bill apart in the early days.

    Some common touchstones that most of these drummers shared:
    Max Roach
    Art Blakey
    Elvin Jones
    Tony Williams
    "Philly" Joe Jones

    With Bill you can add a little more Joe Morello (Dave Brubeck) than with the others...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SunshipVoyager1976 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to say "copy"... Bill had a jazzy style that was pretty well established on the first two Yes albums. Michael and Bill were both heavily jazz influenced players of the same generation of British musicians, so certain stylistic crossover is inevitable, I think. You can hear similar jazzy trademarks in the playing of Jon Hiseman, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Ian Wallace and many more.

    It was his ear for an odd meter and his ringing snare that really set Bill apart in the early days.

    Some common touchstones that most of these drummers shared:
    Max Roach
    Art Blakey
    Elvin Jones
    Tony Williams
    "Philly" Joe Jones

    With Bill you can add a little more Joe Morello (Dave Brubeck) than with the others...
    Great post. I never thought about Morello and Brubeck, but now you say it I'm sure it's there.
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    Member SunshipVoyager1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    Great post. I never thought about Morello and Brubeck, but now you say it I'm sure it's there.
    Thanks. The Morello influence is there mostly in the unusual time signatures.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PHISH99 View Post
    Listening to I Talk to the Wind and Wake of Poseidon title track and it really becomes apparent. Although I rarely listen to 68-69 Yes so maybe I am wrong??
    There is that famous story where both Bill and Jon went to see King Crimson at the Marquee and looked at each other afterwards and said.. "we need to practice".. Apparently King Crimson made quite an impression that evening..

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    AN interesting potential comparison but I don't hear much similarity. Bill has that patented snare drum snap, and he injects some swing into his rock. But it stays rock. I find Giles very orchestral, able to effectively build up to crescendos. Am I remembering correctly that Giles learned a lot in a marching band? It sounds like it. Even something like 21CSM is basically marching band on speed. He doesn't seem to rock much at all, or swing for that matter.

  7. #7
    plus Michael Giles often used double bass drums, which Bill Bruford never did. And Giles did much more tom-tom rolls/fills: that "orchestral" sound as arturs above me so accurately described. When Bill was in Yes/70's Crimson he basically only utilized one tom and one floor tom (the traditional jazz kit set-up).

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't hear the similarity. Giles created a template a lot of early prog drummers copied, but Bill was off in another space entirely. To my ear, Bill brought a lot more snappy attack to his playing while Giles laid down a textural foundation (that orchestral thing, I suppose.) Also, I feel that Bill pushed the beat a lot more than Giles did.
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  9. #9
    I don't think that Bill Bruford tried to copy Michael Giles but IHMO I feel that another King Crimson drummer, Andy McCullogh, tried to copy Giles playing style on Lizard (or as I've heard, Robert Fripp wanted him to play in the manner of Michael Giles on the LP).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by starless and bible black View Post
    Robert Fripp wanted him to play in the manner of Michael Giles
    Classic case from which McCullough came out admirably and way better than when Dave Greenslade asked him to play like Bruford!

    McCullough was great, but sadly his very own "voice" hardly came to show on much else than the Fields album. I still enjoy the hell out of his contribution on Lizard, though - one of the highlights of what I personally regard as their second-finest record.
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    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHISH99 View Post
    Listening to I Talk to the Wind and Wake of Poseidon title track and it really becomes apparent. Although I rarely listen to 68-69 Yes so maybe I am wrong??
    I don't see any evidence that Mr. B was influenced by Mr. Giles.

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    I don't think BB had it in him to copy anyone. He's too much of an individualist for that, even in the early days.

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    Other than both were influenced by jazz, I don't really hear a similarity. Giles's signature "triplet style" is clearly heard in both McCulloch's and the guy in PFM playing.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SunshipVoyager1976 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to say "copy"... Bill had a jazzy style that was pretty well established on the first two Yes albums. Michael and Bill were both heavily jazz influenced players of the same generation of British musicians, so certain stylistic crossover is inevitable, I think. You can hear similar jazzy trademarks in the playing of Jon Hiseman, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Ian Wallace and many more.

    It was his ear for an odd meter and his ringing snare that really set Bill apart in the early days.

    Some common touchstones that most of these drummers shared:
    Max Roach
    Art Blakey
    Elvin Jones
    Tony Williams
    "Philly" Joe Jones

    With Bill you can add a little more Joe Morello (Dave Brubeck) than with the others...
    YEP

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Yeah, I don't hear the similarity. Giles created a template a lot of early prog drummers copied, but Bill was off in another space entirely. To my ear, Bill brought a lot more snappy attack to his playing while Giles laid down a textural foundation (that orchestral thing, I suppose.) Also, I feel that Bill pushed the beat a lot more than Giles did.
    YEP

  16. #16
    Don't think so.




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    Quote Originally Posted by SunshipVoyager1976 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to say "copy"... Bill had a jazzy style that was pretty well established on the first two Yes albums. Michael and Bill were both heavily jazz influenced players of the same generation of British musicians, so certain stylistic crossover is inevitable, I think. You can hear similar jazzy trademarks in the playing of Jon Hiseman, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Ian Wallace and many more.

    It was his ear for an odd meter and his ringing snare that really set Bill apart in the early days.

    Some common touchstones that most of these drummers shared:
    Max Roach
    Art Blakey
    Elvin Jones
    Tony Williams
    "Philly" Joe Jones

    With Bill you can add a little more Joe Morello (Dave Brubeck) than with the others...
    You also need to take on board that players like both Giles and Bruford (as well figures such as Aynsley Dunbar and Ginger Baker) were very heavily influenced by post-War British jazz and big band drummers such as Phil Seaman; a figure whose importance in the evolution of UK rock cannot be understated, but who is virtually unknown outside of musician's circles. Parallels can be drawn with another seminal musician of the period, Davey Graham, with respect to the impression he made on a generation of aspirant British guitarists in both folk and rock. Like Seaman, Graham had a distinct lack of commercial success and chaotic private life, but both were extremely important in providing a blue print for others to follow on their respective instruments.

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    copying was an 80's thing.

  19. #19
    Funny my mind goes to Carl Palmer, the jazzy section of Schizoid Fan reminds me in style of something Palmer went on to do. That busy left hand. And of course ELP rehearsed the track when they first got together .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    You also need to take on board that players like both Giles and Bruford (as well figures such as Aynsley Dunbar and Ginger Baker) were very heavily influenced by post-War British jazz and big band drummers such as Phil Seaman; a figure whose importance in the evolution of UK rock cannot be understated, but who is virtually unknown outside of musician's circles.
    I've been listening to The Nice - Live at the Fillmore East '69 , and I'd add Brian Davison to the list of those influenced by jazz
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbassdrum View Post
    I've been listening to The Nice - Live at the Fillmore East '69 , and I'd add Brian Davison to the list of those influenced by jazz
    I'd go so far as to say that England only produced a handful of drummers in the 60s that you could point to as NOT being influenced much by jazz. I'd put Ringo, Keith Moon and Graham Edge on that list. The vast preponderance seem to have been brought up on jazz in terms of technique and style and it shows in their playing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    You also need to take on board that players like both Giles and Bruford (as well figures such as Aynsley Dunbar and Ginger Baker) were very heavily influenced by post-War British jazz and big band drummers such as Phil Seaman; a figure whose importance in the evolution of UK rock cannot be understated, but who is virtually unknown outside of musician's circles. Parallels can be drawn with another seminal musician of the period, Davey Graham, with respect to the impression he made on a generation of aspirant British guitarists in both folk and rock. Like Seaman, Graham had a distinct lack of commercial success and chaotic private life, but both were extremely important in providing a blue print for others to follow on their respective instruments.
    I'm a jazz drummer, so yes I know of Phil Seaman. I think his influence was strongest on Ginger Baker, stylistically speaking. I would never claim my post as some sort of "definitive" list of influences, anyway. Some people simply don't take the jazz influence into consideration when examining that generation of drummers. Certainly the artists themselves are good enough to mention it!

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    Member SunshipVoyager1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I'd go so far as to say that England only produced a handful of drummers in the 60s that you could point to as NOT being influenced much by jazz. I'd put Ringo, Keith Moon and Graham Edge on that list. The vast preponderance seem to have been brought up on jazz in terms of technique and style and it shows in their playing.
    I would basically agree here.

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