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Thread: Tal Wilkenfeld - Under the Sun

  1. #26
    She could she could she could.... I am not sure what the point of the above is. She could do whatever she wants, which is exactly what she is doing. You just don't have to like it or care, or whatever, and it will not matter one little tiny bit since she is doing exactly what she wants, is exceedingly successful at it and is having a hell of a time. She's played with some of the greatest musicians in the history of rock and jazz, was voted among the best electric bassists in the latest Downbeat poll and is obviously having a successful career. And she did this as a young woman in a male dominated field, playing an instrument that is less commonly played by women. I firmly like her style much more than the technical virtuosity of someone like Mohini Dey.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  2. #27
    Member DoubleDrummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bRETT View Post
    If you have a strong following (which she does), and have control-freak tendencies (which she does), it allows for more freedom and potentially more profit.
    With the current state of the music industry, I cant disagree with bRETT and I support her strategy.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    She could she could she could.... I am not sure what the point of the above is. She could do whatever she wants, which is exactly what she is doing. You just don't have to like it or care, or whatever, and it will not matter one little tiny bit since she is doing exactly what she wants, is exceedingly successful at it and is having a hell of a time.
    You took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you for saying this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    She's played with some of the greatest musicians in the history of rock and jazz, was voted among the best electric bassists in the latest Downbeat poll and is obviously having a successful career. And she did this as a young woman in a male dominated field, playing an instrument that is less commonly played by women.
    Great point!

  4. #29
    I will add one more non-musician thing that matters to me- she is also overtly Jewish (as am I). Her twitter feed is replete with obvious references, to celebrating a Passover dinner or a shabbat dinner, and making jokes about some of the food stuff she likes, which are in the faith. Minor issue, likely noticed by few, but of note to me.
    Last edited by Dana5140; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:30 PM.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    You bring in people with different backgrounds and styles... and mix them up.... that is what can be interesting. You don't form a band were everyone is trying to sound like Genesis or Nirvana for that matter. This is where Millenials are not getting it... and they are failing miserably in their creative output.
    You really need to get out more if you honestly believe that's the case nowadays. There are tons of highly interesting, creative musicians out there who are, yes, Millennials. You just need to know where to look.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    The Beatles were a great chemistry band. They just did their thing. They wrote great songs and very unique. They supported one another and everything was for the song, never going over the top into musical masterbation. A lot can be learned from them.... what not to do.
    Never?

    What about John's "Revolution 9"?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    There are all kinds of things Tal could be doing creatively. How about......
    .......bringing in people with different backgrounds and styles... and mix them up.... that is what can be interesting.
    She does seem to be doing that on record: One track she's recorded has her current guitarist, Benmont Tench, and Jeremy Stacey on it. One guy from her live band, one from Tom Petty & Co., and one from King Crimson - how's about that for "people with different backgrounds and styles"? But this was for a single tune, where she probably heard those specific guys playing it. The combinations you're throwing out sound like unworkable supergroups, with people that have all evolved definite styles and approaches that don't sound too compatible.

    But you also seem to be assuming that she doesn't know what kind of music she wants to play and what she wants to sound like; and that she might somehow find it by cramming too many cooks into one kitchen and hoping that magic happens. However, I don't think anything could be further from the truth. From those two tracks, I'd say she knows exactly what she wants: to be a top-drawer singer-songwriter with a top-drawer band, in the tradition of Tom Petty, Sting, or Richard Thompson. And her live band - three guys who can hear what page she's on, step onto it with her, color it in with their own contributions, and still keep the essence of what she started with and what she intends - shows us the way she plans to get there.

  7. #32
    Member DoubleDrummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    I will add one more non-musician thing that matters to me- she is also overtly Jewish (as am I). Her twitter feed is replete with obvious references, to celebrating a Passover dinner or a shabbat dinner, and making jokes about some of the food stuff she likes, which are in the faith. Minor issue, likely noticed by many, but of note to me.
    I like people that are proud of their heritage..................it is interesting.

  8. #33
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    Everything you described is exactly the problem with today's music. A complete lack of originality. Copy cat this, copy cat that. Certainly Tal has the chops to do something original, both as a fine player and composer, but she for some reason chooses not to. Just like Joe Bonamassa, great technical player who can copy cat the greats of the past but lacks an original voice.

    I know you don't like to take my word for it.... so take Greg Lake's word instead.
    Listen to Greg at the 4:40 mark where he talks about musical currency being originality.... not what is going on today.

    You don't have to agree with me, but you have to agree with Greg if you are interested in the proper progressive rock mindset.
    If I may borrow from John Wilcox's interview, I prefer to agree with Steve Hackett: "I think honesty is very good. Energy and honesty is good. Authenticity I think. I'd rather have that than originality because there is no such thing. Original music cannot be accessed. We can't do it. We just rearrange the pieces on the board so to speak."
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    If I may borrow from John Wilcox's interview, I prefer to agree with Steve Hackett: "I think honesty is very good. Energy and honesty is good. Authenticity I think. I'd rather have that than originality because there is no such thing. Original music cannot be accessed. We can't do it. We just rearrange the pieces on the board so to speak."
    Never seen that quote before, I like it.

    Regarding Tal, I think she's OK but she's never knocked me out as a player. For what she's trying to do in the jazz/fusion arena, I think her sound is a little timid, and it just doesn't burn the way I think the best stuff like that should. She needs a lot more definition in her bass tone, and the music needs a bit more fire... it's just a little "fuzaky" to me.

    The singer/songwriter stuff is OK, but I can't help feeling like I've heard these songs before. Not going down Skulhead's road, but to me there is something lacking in the two songs above, and I don't really feel she has found a "unique" voice, even within the parameters of this type of music. I'm glad she's successful and I respect her talent, but her music just has yet to "wow" me, and that's not because nothing since 1979 has "wowed" me.

    Bill

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    She's played with some of the greatest musicians in the history of rock and jazz, was voted among the best electric bassists in the latest Downbeat poll and is obviously having a successful career. And she did this as a young woman in a male dominated field, playing an instrument that is less commonly played by women. I firmly like her style much more than the technical virtuosity of someone like Mohini Dey.
    I think one of those music surveys voted Paul McCartney bass player of the year once. Unless it is a jazz magazine I don't give them much cred. Didn't she use to live with Vinnie C. That's an inside track to play with Jeff Beck.
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  11. #36
    Member DoubleDrummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    If I may borrow from John Wilcox's interview, I prefer to agree with Steve Hackett: "I think honesty is very good. Energy and honesty is good. Authenticity I think. I'd rather have that than originality because there is no such thing. Original music cannot be accessed. We can't do it. We just rearrange the pieces on the board so to speak."
    A quote from my music literature professor when I was in music school......................
    THERE IS NOTHING NEW OUT THERE SINCE J.S. BACH !

  12. #37
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Who cares. She's hot!

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    She doesn't need to sign away a part of everything she does. She's already established and constantly working, even if she isn't established & constantly working as a solo artist.
    Exactly so.
    And the code is a play, a play is a song, a song is a film, a film is a dance...

  14. #39
    Shadow- Downbeat poll- that is very much a jazz magazine. And I think she ended up with Vinnie C. after she had already been asked to play with Beck. Before that, she had played briefly with Chick Corea and Frank Gambale as part of winning something over in Australia. That clip no longer seems available.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Never seen that quote before, I like it.Bill
    It's from My New Steve Hackett Interview by Wilcox660 on the main forum.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I think one of those music surveys voted Paul McCartney bass player of the year once. Unless it is a jazz magazine I don't give them much cred. Didn't she use to live with Vinnie C. That's an inside track to play with Jeff Beck.
    Downbeat is a jazz magazine.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDrummer View Post
    A quote from my music literature professor when I was in music school......................
    THERE IS NOTHING NEW OUT THERE SINCE J.S. BACH !
    Not really true, especially because Bach was a "summing-up" composer - most of what he did had been done already by others, although he almost always did it better. That said, Bach's musical vocabulary still is the basis for almost all Western tonal music. Many of the differences since then are ones of context and emphasis: Bach might have used an unprepared and unresolved dissonance once in a thousand bars of music, whereas some modern composers use them on every other beat. But Bach did use them - once in a very long while - and that's the real basis for your prof's assertion.

    Back to the subject: I wonder when Tal's album is coming out? She did a tour a couple of years ago, but the only gigs she has scheduled at present are a couple in NYC and LA.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:59 AM.

  18. #43
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    Here's another song - just the audio.



    It seems to have a similar aesthetic to the others: dark-toned, wailing, grunge-influenced songwriting combined with jazzy, polished playing. It could be more "original" (as Skullhead said repeatedly), but it's a good and distinctive combination, she does it very well, and it gives her a recognizable sound of her own. Considering what pop music sounds like these days, she could do much worse.

    Oh, and she's announced that the album will be out on March 15th. It's called Love Remains and the picture above shows the cover.
    Here's an interview where she talks about it: https://www.billboard.com/articles/n...eld-killing-me
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:20 PM.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Here's another song - just the audio.



    It seems to have a similar aesthetic to the others: dark-toned, wailing, grunge-influenced songwriting combined with jazzy, polished playing. It could be more "original" (as Skullhead said repeatedly), but it's a good and distinctive combination, she does it very well, and it gives her a recognizable sound of her own. Considering what pop music sounds like these days, she could do much worse.

    Oh, and she's announced that the album will be out on March 15th. It's called Love Remains and the picture above shows the cover.
    Here's an interview where she talks about it: https://www.billboard.com/articles/n...eld-killing-me
    I was hoping she would do something much better. She's a bassist with good backing vocal qualities. She can stake a claim as a lead singer, but she's not a proper lead singer by any means. It would have been great to hear her focus on the music side of things more and forget trying to become a solo artist - band leader. It's not working.

    If she wants to get near pop music, something more sophisticated like Steely Dan would be a better option. What I mean is that she could cull together great studio players, bring in a real songwriter, find a great vocalist or two... and take back music from her generation of slackers. I really believe someone like herself could do it. Disappointed to see she is not moving in that direction, even if she thinks it's what she wants to do. Over the years, she will likely regret a missed opportunity. Her records will end up in the .99 cent bin of history if she keeps on this trajectory.

    I like that Robin Trower didn't waste his time and talent trying to sing.... or Jimmy Page for that matter. If you have it, great.... but even an excellent pitch perfect vocalist like Chris Squire took a back seat to Jon. Her vocal texture could work very well in contrast to a more "sweet" sounding vocalist.

    The grunge comparison is accurate I believe. but even Alice and Chains were a fine vocal duo up front, with very contrasting styles and tonality that worked beautifully... as it would in any vocal music genre. Those guys could sing and that is why they were successful.



    Going the grunge vibe, she would not have anything over Alice in Chains... for example. I'm hardly a grunge fan, but I know talent when I see it and they were a phenomenal group who could deliver rock vocal harmonies in a most passionate and convincing way.
    Tal needs a lead vocalist.... and the production on her album feels stiff and uncomfortable with all the unnecessary "Pro Tooling" to the rhythm section..... in total contrast to the beautiful and naturally open feel of these so called "dirty grunge rockers". I'll take them even stripped down like this over where Tal is going any day.
    Last edited by Skullhead; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:07 AM.

  20. #45
    The Under the Sun track reminds me of Alanis Morrisette

  21. #46
    Boy, skullhead, you sure have given a lot of time and thought and energy in taking Tal Wilkenfeld to task for not making the music you want her to or in the way you want it made. Reminds me when back in the day I was editing medical journals and one college had its students write letters to the editor as a critical appraisal exercise, and all the letters typically said something like "Why didn't the investigator do this, or that?" And the answer always was, because that is not what the investigator wanted to do- they were not out there answering the question you are interested in, but the one they are interested in. In the end, all you've said is that what she is doing is not for you. That's fine.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  22. #47
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    I think she's heard the last couple Esperanza Spalding albums and is following a similar direction. Neither are jazz, and that's fine. Though I think ES has her beat so far. The Devolution of Emily was downright prog inspired.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I think she's heard the last couple Esperanza Spalding albums and is following a similar direction. Neither are jazz, and that's fine. Though I think ES has her beat so far. The Devolution of Emily was downright prog inspired.
    I agree with all of this.

  24. #49
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    Esperanza has a stronger jazz background, which translates to a stronger, more systematic, and more comprehensive knowledge of music. While she's recorded with other artists and worked as a sidewoman, that wasn't really ever her focus, as it was for Tal. Plus, ES has been a solo artist and been writing her own songs from the start, whereas Tal just started doing that again in the last few years. So in other words, while they may be about the same age, Esperanza probably has ten years of experience on Tal as a songwriter, vocalist, and bandleader.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:40 PM.

  25. #50
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    It shows.

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