Canterbury Binge 2018-2019

[aith01]

^ Frank, I was getting worried when it was nearing the new year and I didn't see a Canterbury binge thread appear. Very glad you did start this thread, and as always, some fine discussion has ensued.

[Steve F.]

^Clive is a BADASS.

Sadly, was.
He died in 2017.

[calyx]

Clive was for many years Nick Mason's drum tech, and he actually drummed with the Floyd once when Mason's usual doppelganger for the "Wall" show, Willie Wilson, fell ill. Clive stepped in for the night. Of course, more recently (in 2000) he recorded that wonderful cover of Soft Machine's "As Long As He Lies Perfectly Still" with Dave Stewart, Hugh Hopper (who, ironically, Dave and Clive had thought of asking to join them when Mont Campbell left in 1972) and Jakko Jakszyk.

[pb2015]

Clive Brooks was also drum tech for Leonard Cohen's tour in the late 2000's.

[chalkpie]

^ Frank, I was getting worried when it was nearing the new year and I didn't see a Canterbury binge thread appear. Very glad you did start this thread, and as always, some fine discussion has ensued.

Yeah man.

[Zappathustra]

I slept with Egg's Polite Force on my earphones last night. It is a truly gorgeous album on all accounts, it's raw and delicate at the same time, it's full of surprises. Dave really shines on this one, exploiting to the maximum the space that the guitarless, trio format provides.

A top 10 Canterbury album for me, possibly a top 5 as well.

[Kcrimso]

Polite Force is also my favourite Egg album. "Contrasong" is especially cool song!

[Phlakaton]

Polite Force was the first one I heard - never heard them before - bought it off Goldmine on an auction - needle hit - my jaw hit the floor

[Scrotum Scissor]

Polite Force is also my favourite Egg album. "Contrasong" is especially cool song!

I think the mastery of The Polite Force is that it basically succeeds in uniting four rather disparate types of song under an upside-down umbrella.

Even the opening track ("A Visit to Newport Hospital") - which arguably follows heel on the most advanced features of their debut - sounds like little else of its time. There's melody and harmony and variation galores, but it's essentially a dreamy Canterbury-style ballad. "Contrasong" is staunch charicature on brass-rock/pop, while "Boilk" takes the embryonic idea of post-psych noise collage/montage to its logical extreme and serves as both active release and intermission at the same time. I find it brilliant and at odds even with its day! "Long Piece no. 3", on the other hand, is a complete monster and anything but what Classic Rock made it out to be in their helpless go at a recension - in which it was obviously judged as a failed attempt at outdoing ELP's rocking-of-the-classics. Only a reviewer with faint acquaintance of the avant-garde concept so inherent in the Canterbury scene would draw such a poor conclusion. "Long Piece no. 3" is not an exhibitionist showcase of technical ideas spiced out with "tune" but a formalist play on varying and contrasting levels of dynamics and harmonics - it's not meant to work-as-a-whole on the same terms as a "Tarkus", it's simply a convertion of theoretical experiments.

To me, this is one of the true masterpieces of vintage progressive rock music, and to know how it was conceived by young musicians as early as autumn 1970 remains nothing short of astonishing.

[chalkpie]

^ Great post - I was gonna write the same thing but in fake Norwegian.

[calyx]

To me, this is one of the true masterpieces of vintage progressive rock music, and to know how it was conceived by young musicians as early as autumn 1970 remains nothing short of astonishing.

For the record, since we need to be precise, "The Polite Force" was recorded in June 1970, that is, before ELP had ever performed live or even begun recording their debut. And both Stewart and Campbell had yet to turn 20. (In contrast, Emerson and Lake were 26 and 23, respectively.)

[chalkpie]

For the record, since we need to be precise, "The Polite Force" was recorded in June 1970, that is, before ELP had ever performed live or even begun recording their debut. And both Stewart and Campbell had yet to turn 20. (In contrast, Emerson and Lake were 26 and 23, respectively.)

That's nuts. Gun to my head, Polite Force may contain my favorite sounding Hammond ever....its so crunchy and delicious. What glorious tones.

[Scrotum Scissor]

For the record, since we need to be precise, "The Polite Force" was recorded in June 1970, that is, before ELP had ever performed live or even begun recording their debut. And both Stewart and Campbell had yet to turn 20. (In contrast, Emerson and Lake were 26 and 23, respectively.)

Yes. But June's not autumn! June's even better than autumn!!

Seriously, the reason why the album was held to ELP'ian scrutiny at all was probably that it wasn't released until winter '71.

[Kcrimso]

For the record, since we need to be precise, "The Polite Force" was recorded in June 1970, that is, before ELP had ever performed live or even begun recording their debut.

That is quite interesting. Had not known that before. Dave Stewart however was Emerson "fan" was he not?

[calyx]

That is quite interesting. Had not known that before. Dave Stewart however was Emerson "fan" was he not?

Yes, almost a Keith Emerson fanboy in the days of The Nice (his star spot in Uriel concerts was a cover of their version of "Rondo"). As you might guess, he didn't like ELP quite as much, though.

[Kcrimso]

Yes, almost a Keith Emerson fanboy in the days of The Nice (his star spot in Uriel concerts was a cover of their version of "Rondo"). As you might guess, he didn't like ELP quite as much, though.

By the way I don't agree with the John Peel quote I have in my profile

[Scrotum Scissor]

^ In the Prog Britannica TV documentary there's that section where Mont C. promptly states how Keith Emerson (when in ELP) was perceived by the "old guard" as pretty much of a sellout, which only goes to show how Emerson's initial work with The Nice was held in high esteem for its anarchic and exploratory qualities. Interestingly, this was the exact opposite position of someone like Francis Monkman, who (according to King's book on Robert Wyatt) seemed to find ELP a much better wheelhouse for Emerson's capabilities. I Wonder if perhaps the "old guard's" stance had more of a cultural connotation than a strictly musical one, seeing as The Nice were originally seen as a Product of the underground scene whereas ELP were "bog corpo" in all their might. Or I suppose a capacity like Campbell felt that someone like Emerson should have had it in him to come up with something far more radical than what ELP would muster.

[Kcrimso]

^ In the Prog Britannica TV documentary there's that section where Mont C. promptly states how Keith Emerson (when in ELP) was perceived by the "old guard" as pretty much of a sellout, which only goes to show how Emerson's initial work with The Nice was held in high esteem for its anarchic and exploratory qualities. Interestingly, this was the exact opposite position of someone like Francis Monkman, who (according to King's book on Robert Wyatt) seemed to find ELP a much better wheelhouse for Emerson's capabilities. I Wonder if perhaps the "old guard's" stance had more of a cultural connotation than a strictly musical one, seeing as The Nice were originally seen as a Product of the underground scene whereas ELP were "bog corpo" in all their might. Or I suppose a capacity like Campbell felt that someone like Emerson should have had it in him to come up with something far more radical than what ELP would muster.

I vastly prefer ELP. The Nice does absolutely nothing for me.

[Scrotum Scissor]

^ I have to say that while I certainly cherish some of both, there's nothing about The Nice that I'm turned off by in the same sense that I am with a portion of ELP's music. They were surprisingly different acts with rather disparate strengths - IMO. I can still listen to them, though - bits and pieces anyway.

In contrast, the only Egg that I can't really take is their go at bogus "symph" on side 2 of the debut, and I'm not exactly crazy about "Fugue" on side 1 either.

[Zappathustra]

I bought Ars Longa Vita Brevis, the only Nice I have ever listened to, back in the days when I was discovering Prog, and while it was aesthetically and sonic-wise miles away from the Yes/Tull/Genesis/Crimson stuff I was identifying with the term Prog then, I loved it, and I loved it for what it was, not just as a precursor to the real Proggers. The fact that on the keyboards was the greatest musician that ever sat there could have made a difference to my untrained ear. Tracks like Intermezzo and the s/t suite definitely left a stamp on my evolving musical taste.

Little Arabella, or Happy Freuds could very well have Ayers or Wyatt on the vocals, and are extremely close to the Canterbury ethos, while the more refined ELP version definitely evolved further and further away from the whimsical, raw and uncertain sound of the Nice, which was only maintained - partially - in the brillant ELP debut.

So yeah, in a sense ELP was a waste of talent, if one compares with what Dave Stewart produced in the course of the 70's decade, one has to -reluctantly - agree with the Peel quote. Much, much more could have been achieved.

[JJ88]

Brian Davison had a much lighter touch than Carl Palmer. I'm not sure I personally prefer The Nice, but I'm also not entirely unsympathetic to those who prefer The Nice as a result of this difference. I think their debut- The Thoughts Of Emerlist Davjack- was the most consistent studio album. Peter Gabriel has talked about the full-on assault of the band in concert and this debut captures that best.

With Ars Longa Vita Brevis, I've grown much more fond of songs like 'Little Arabella' and 'Happy Freuds' over the years, to hear Emerson playing in a 'lighter' context than he later would (the 'comedy' numbers on ELP albums were basically always him in honky-tonk piano mode). I still think 'Daddy Where Do I Come From' is dreadful though, and it opens the album. The title suite is also a bit of a mixed bag really, as these 'classical rock' things often are. The Five Bridges Suite was a better attempt, but ELP's 'Pirates' was better again IMHO.

As for Egg, the debut in particular has overt influences from the likes of The Nice and Crazy World Of Arthur Brown. It's a solid debut but I think The Polite Force is a much better album, it's much more 'out' and there's more of an individual identity as a result. 'A Visit To Newport Hospital' has one of the most lethal riffs ever recorded...without a guitar! Definitely one of the best albums of the period.

[chalkpie]

Wyatt- Old Rottenhat tonight. What a great album. I really enjoyed The British Road and The Age of Self, but truly enjoyed the entire thing. RW has such a way with "mood" in his music that is hard to describe but just really unique.

[Zappathustra]

Wyatt- Old Rottenhat tonight. What a great album. I really enjoyed The British Road and The Age of Self, but truly enjoyed the entire thing. RW has such a way with "mood" in his music that is hard to describe but just really unique.

I need to re-listen to this, since my memories of it are not particularly positive. I am pretty sure I have the vinyl, but it has been buried for a long time now in the neglected-records-zone. The fact that Steve calls it his favorite Wyatt threw me in confusion.

[chalkpie]

I need to re-listen to this, since my memories of it are not particularly positive. I am pretty sure I have the vinyl, but it has been buried for a long time now in the neglected-records-zone. The fact that Steve calls it his favorite Wyatt threw me in confusion.

A few points based on my listen:

1) Wyatt's voice on this sounds absolutely amazing - its more mature and has aged beautifully by this point in his life (1986)

2) The digital sounds (keys, percussion) could throw some folks off I would imagine, but its just part of the sonic landscape here so...just try and go with it. Not sure what he was using on this album specifically in terms of keys - Aymeric or anybody?

3) Some of the harmonic changes are really nice, as well as his use of extended choral harmony that can be rooted back to jazz and maybe even 20th century classical. I also really dig his soloing, he always creates these idiosyncratic lines that only he can.

4) Like I mentioned - the moods he evokes is really difficult to pinpoint, but it always intimate and its always "Robert"....its just unique to him.

5) The tunes are just great, and each passing year they seem to work their magic more and more.

6) Possibly ignore all of that crap (^) and see if you connect with it, go in with open ears.

[Zappathustra]

^Hey, thanks for your remarks. I re-listened (twice) and it's really, really good. The stripped-down arranging and the quiet, almost catatonic atmosphere can very well give the false impression that this is a dull record. As with many Wyatt solo works there is a lot of idiosyncratic, subtle details that are easy to miss and require devoted listening. One has to get involved in the emotional level above all to grasp the work's essence.

But still I prefer Rock Bottom, Ruth is Stranger than Richard. And Shleeep.