Saga

[Top Cat]

Well someone certainly has a Sadler mancrush, lol.

you funny. as they say in Canada..you betcha

[Kanukisbrave]

"Behavior" from 1985 did a lot of damage in their momentum in Canada. "Heads or Tales" like "Worlds Apart" seemed to be opening doors for the band but, with this one everything crashed to a halt. No hit, and most fans I knew at the time were shocked at how mediocre this one was.... A few years later "Wildest Dreams" came out and while being down to a trio, had a sound that was more fan friendly (not necessarily radio friendly) but any momentum was gone...

[GuitarGeek]

"Behavior" from 1985 did a lot of damage in their momentum in Canada. "Heads or Tales" like "Worlds Apart" seemed to be opening doors for the band but, with this one everything crashed to a halt. No hit, and most fans I knew at the time were shocked at how mediocre this one was...

That's interesting, because Stateside, What Do I Know was a hit. I dunno if it was bigger than On The Loose, but I do remember it getting quite a bit of airplay on this side of the border. According to Wikipedia, Behaviour outsold Heads Or Tales.

[yamishogun]

Wow! thanks for posting this. I don't think I've ever seen any good quality live stuff from the Marathon era, and Michael with blonde hair??? they sound quite good here. Thanks again, I think I'll lift this one and share it with Michael on FB.

I found this video after buying Marathon. I like over half the album - I rarely like all the songs on a Saga album - and the title track is great. The video depressed me a tad though as it seems like the crowd wasn't into it so the anthem song seemed out of place.

[dropforge]

That's interesting, because Stateside, What Do I Know was a hit.[/B] I dunno if it was bigger than On The Loose, but I do remember it getting quite a bit of airplay on this side of the border. According to Wikipedia, Behaviour outsold Heads Or Tales.

If it was, I never heard it on FM in SoCal. "On The Loose" and "Wind Him Up," you bet. But nothing from Behaviour. They tried to appeal to a much broader base with that one, right around the same time Twelfth Night did much the same. But Twelfth Night didn't survive and lasted one more album*, while Saga somehow managed to escape with powder burns.

*To be fair, the subsidiary they got signed to folded, and they didn't get another offer.

[Top Cat]

If it was, I never heard it on FM in SoCal. "On The Loose" and "Wind Him Up," you bet. But nothing from Behaviour. They tried to appeal to a much broader base with that one, right around the same time Twelfth Night did much the same. But Twelfth Night didn't survive, and Saga somehow managed to escape with powder burns.

As has been noted, Saga had developed a solid fan base in Germany and surrounding countries, which helped them keep revenue and gave them reason to continue. These fans were/are fiercely loyal and supported Saga any way they could through merchandise, attending shows and album sales.

I think it's good remember the 80's were a tough time for musicians, there was a mixing pot of genres, none of which Saga clearly fit, and the struggle continued into the 90's when grunge became popular.
It may be why some of the albums were not consistent, as Saga never sold out in their music, but continued to write quality music with thoughtful lyrics, however I do believe at times their music was composed as to be relevant to the times.

I truly love their entire disography, admittedly there were times I wasn't as enamored immediately with a new release, but they were a snapshot of a time in musical history as well as the band's journey.
Now I can listen to each album and appreciate it for what it was and when it was.

[ronmac]

I'm curious, did the Tull crowd pay attention to them and respond positively, or were they ignored like a lot of opening bands? I missed that tour but I don't recall hearing about them playing live in the 80s after that, at least in my neck of the woods.

Well, they did have their hit in the charts at the same time. From what I recall, the crowd responded positively. Or, at least, not negatively. But, it was Pittsburgh and they can be pretty one-dimensional at times.

[Paulrus]

If it was, I never heard it on FM in SoCal. "On The Loose" and "Wind Him Up," you bet. But nothing from Behaviour. They tried to appeal to a much broader base with that one, right around the same time Twelfth Night did much the same. But Twelfth Night didn't survive and lasted one more album*, while Saga somehow managed to escape with powder burns.

*To be fair, the subsidiary they got signed to folded, and they didn't get another offer.

Yeah, that was about the time I transitioned from SoCal to NorCal and I don't recall radio stations in either market playing anything off of Behaviour. But radio was very regional back then.

The label Saga was signed to -- Portrait -- had their big hits in the mid 80s with Cyndi Lauper and Sade. Worlds Apart had been a success for the label, but I can just picture some slimy suit meeting with the band and urging them to sound like those two!

[DocProgger]

you funny. as they say in Canada..you betcha

Hey, I grew up in Minnesota so that's normal speak for me, and the Coen Bros made that cool. But I get it, you're, how should I say, "protective" of Saga. As diehard a fanboy as I am of many of my prog rock heroes, I've never been on a "first name basis FB friends" with one. I'm jealous!

[DocProgger]

Here's what is still not been answered and fascinating to me---what is it about Saga that so appealed to the Germans but did not similarly translate to the US, or even Canada for that matter.

I recently watched their Live in Munich DVD--supposedly Sadler's last show--and the collective orgasm the Deutsch crowd was having is quite interesting.

[yamishogun]

Here's what is still not been answered and fascinating to me---what is it about Saga that so appealed to the Germans but did not similarly translate to the US, or even Canada for that matter.

I think it has something to do with Germany being a smaller and much less diverse culture than America, especially in the 1980s. For instance, rap was becoming popular in the U.S. but not in Germany then.

[aith01]

Not being born until 1984, I wasn't really exposed to much of Saga's music until I got into my 20s and heard about them on the official Genesis message board. Someone there (Narnialady) mailed me a sampler disc of theirs, and that set me to collecting their CDs henceforth. They had a sound that's really hard to describe, and it's rarely duplicated.

Thanks to you guys, I went through my CD shelves and dusted off several of my Saga discs to listen to again -- House of Cards, Marathon, Network, Worlds Apart, Heads or Tales... I have others, but these will do for now.

There are a few I still need to grab though, like Full Circle.

[dropforge]

Not being born until 1984, I wasn't really exposed to much of Saga's music until I got into my 20s and heard about them on the official Genesis message board. Someone there (Narnialady) mailed me a sampler disc of theirs, and that set me to collecting their CDs henceforth. They had a sound that's really hard to describe, and it's rarely duplicated.

Thanks to you guys, I went through my CD shelves and dusted off several of my Saga discs to listen to again -- House of Cards, Marathon, Network, Worlds Apart, Heads or Tales... I have others, but these will do for now.

There are a few I still need to grab though, like Full Circle.

You need that, and Silent Knight (third album, from '80), ASAP.

[Trane]

Saw this band a few times on the local circuit in the laqte 70's, whether high-school, college, uni or bar circuits... My guess I that I saw them four times, but it's rather blurry, because they weren't my kind of dope, ans like most of my friends, we thought there were a small dozen local bands that were much better than them - including local punk bands like Teenage Heads or The Diodes.

TBH, I certainly didn't think of Saga as being "prog" back then and it's still not an obvious thought to me nowadays... I thought bands like FM, Triumph or Max Webster and even Goddo were "proggier" (though at the time I didn't know what "prog" was), but Saga was fitting the "art rock" etiquette, especially with their "chapters" and their rather cool artworks (especially Twilight).

Their first three albums are fairly OK, I guess. But there's this strange, "unengaging" quality to many of their songs which I simply cannot get across. Perhaps it's that animated, quasi-rubbish singing voice, I don't know. They always used to be huge here in Northern Europe, and I saw them live a couple of times. I never thought of them as a particularly "prog" Endeavour, although I see their influences. I sold off their albums save for the debut. It's alright, but that's it for me.

Yup, TBH, I sorta stopped paying attention after Silent Knight, because I thought the next album (WA) was rather crappy and the next one (HoT) was simply atrocious to my ears, though oddly that's +/- when they started getting big in continental Europe. yeah, me & my buddies thought these guys as almost too new-wavish/poppish to be really "rock"

They had a few popular radio tracks (including You're Not Alone and Humble Stance) in their early days, but only Don't Be Late hit a note with me.

Always reminded me of Styx for some reason.

Only with that Mr Lobbotto track IMHO, cos for the rest, Saga's tweeness couldn't match Styx's pomp...

Calling them the first Neo-prog band sounds unlikely to me, because they were always to poppy (a bit like It Bites or Iskander would be half a decade later)

"Behavior" from 1985 did a lot of damage in their momentum in Canada. "Heads or Tales" like "Worlds Apart" seemed to be opening doors for the band but, with this one everything crashed to a halt. No hit, and most fans I knew at the time were shocked at how mediocre this one was.... A few years later "Wildest Dreams" came out and while being down to a trio, had a sound that was more fan friendly (not necessarily radio friendly) but any momentum was gone...

Well WA spaned them three hits (OTL, WHU and Time's Up) on the national scene, but that's partly what started irking me, because I didn't like either. But the following HoT only had Scratching The Surface hitting the airwaves; while I remember nothing from later albums, and by then, they'd become the butt of jokes of Toronto's rocking circles... I haven't heard the slightest of their 90's and 00's albums, but I understand they kind of returned to their early selves

[roylayer]

Generation 13 isn't mentioned often enough around here. Definitely one of their best and stacks up well against other great prog albums. I don't really care about it being a concept album (although I'm sure that many do), but it is more adventurous musically than some of the albums before or after it. Check it out, Chris.

[JKL2000]

This overview from The Globe and Mail has a few interesting tidbits I'd never heard:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts...ticle38033861/

I was trying to find some album reviews from early on, but just wound up reading this, which is pretty recent.

[aith01]

You need that, and Silent Knight (third album, from '80), ASAP.

Oh, I do have Silent Knight.

It has one of my favorite Saga tracks -- "Help Me Out". Back when I still lived at home, for quite some time I would come home from work or wherever, lie down on my bed and put that song on repeat just to chill out.

[Trane]

says Globe & Mail

Saga did well enough in Canada – their 1982 live album In Transit went platinum here (it's also the first live rock album ever released on CD). But after headlining Toronto's Maple Leaf Gardens in 1984, they didn't play their hometown for almost another decade, concentrating instead on Europe.

"Our domineering English manager didn't think much of our own country," Gilmour says. "He wanted America and Europe, because that's where all the money was. Big mistake. We should have always come back and toured Canada at least once a year. Out of sight, out of mind."

I can't help but feeling their manager was right... Why fight Red Rider and play seventh fiddle behind Bryan Adams?

But I'm not surprised they didn't play on the home front for a decade... I left Toronto in 1990, having forgotten Saga existed at al for already couple of years, only to rediscover them in Germany in 94 (Saga was no hit in Belgium or France).

[Top Cat]

Hey, I grew up in Minnesota so that's normal speak for me, and the Coen Bros made that cool. But I get it, you're, how should I say, "protective" of Saga. As diehard a fanboy as I am of many of my prog rock heroes, I've never been on a "first name basis FB friends" with one. I'm jealous!

I think it's because Michael Sadler and Dave Kerzner are two musicians who make themselves accessible on their Facebook page. For instance it's possible to be commenting on something they've posted on their FB page and get a direct reply from them. I've even gotten pm replies, sometimes on a personal thing or a suggestion. Sometimes it's not even about music but joking around or sharing something personal. I try to put away the fanboy hat and just interact normally, and I would hope in a way it's as beneficial to them as us, because it puts a face on your supporters which they might not normally get.

I think both Michael Sadler and Dave Kerzner care a lot about their fans, and it's because of the way they interact and seem down to earth, there doesn't seem to be this huge gap between the artist and the fan.

[yamishogun]

I haven't heard the slightest of their 90's and 00's albums, but I understand they kind of returned to their early selves

I don't think they did. For me, the albums from House of Cards (2001) through The Human Condition (2009) are when Saga went a new direction that doesn't sound like their late 70s/early 80s albums or their late 80s/early 90s albums. Sadler returned with the unadventurous 20/20 (2012), and I think Sagacity (2014) is mixed.

[Top Cat]

Sadler returned with the unadventurous 20/20 (2012), and I think Sagacity (2014) is mixed.

If I remember correctly, at the time Michael returned, most or all of the music had been written, assuming Rob would be the vocalist on 20/20, and Michael had little or no writing input on that album. Does anyone know if he did any of the lyrics?
He came in and did the vocals for the songs.
I agree Sagacity is mixed, but I was surprised one night when we listened to it on vinyl and it sounded a lot better to me than the cd.

Funny story about Sagacity, I was unaware they mastered the album at 48rpm(several bands did this, because the faster speed is supposed to produce better fidelity).
I put the album on at normal 33 1/3 rpm and was shocked the band was playing so fast...(enter lightbulb moment), oh, it's at 48rpm..d'oh!!!

[GuitarGeek]

Funny story about Sagacity, I was unaware they mastered the album at 48rpm(several bands did this, because the faster speed is supposed to produce better fidelity).

I hadn't heard about anyone doing that with a regular album release (other than the original 3 record release of Public Image Limited's Metal Can/Second Edition album), but it makes sense. You're spreading the given recording out over a larger space, so the stylus that cuts the vinyl is, presumably able to cut a more complex groove. It's the same principle with magnetic tape. Anyone remember how when you recording anything off the TV on your VCR, the picture/sound quality was invariably better with the faster speeds? And if the tape somehow got damaged, at the faster speed, the resultant glitch would be smaller, too.

[DarthVander]

Reading this thread got me thinking about Saga. I realized I tend to forget Jim Gilmour didn't join until Silent Knight and they had two different keyboard players - Peter Rochon and Gregg Chadd - on the first two albums. Typically their names didn't come up in this thread either - their contributions are largely forgotten even though obviously they played on some classic stuff, and with Saga's music being so keyboard-heavy they are quite central to the sound of those albums. Rochon also co-wrote several songs on both the debut and Images at Twilight (though he didn't play on it).
Even Wikipedia doesn't mention them at all, other than in the lists of lineups and band members.

Anybody know what the deal is with those two? Why did they leave, and what did they do after?

[yamishogun]

Anybody know what the deal is with those two? Why did they leave, and what did they do after?

I heard that they made it big in Japan.

[interbellum]

Anybody know what the deal is with those two? Why did they leave, and what did they do after?

According to discogs "Peter Rochon left the band to become a full-time music equipment company executive shortly after the band's first album was released."
Nice to see Rochon on an album by Ronnie Fray And The Panama Bandits, called "Progressively Basic".