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Thread: Sahdowfax-Watercourse Way 1976 lp

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacefreak View Post
    Plus they are professionally printed CD-Rs, not CDs.
    What's the packaging like on the Tachika's? I usually eschew grey area material but because WW is so out-of-print and so damn expensive (on CD) I'm sorta interested. "Mini-LP" can mean anything from a thin, cheap cardboard sleeve to a really beautiful replica (e.g., Laurence Vanay). Where do the Tachika's fall in that spectrum?

  2. #27
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ The former, if my NF vending room memories aren't letting me down.

  3. #28
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    not only that, but after I stopped trading with a certain person 10 years ago, Tachika product became sonically inferior. It used to be that Tachika was getting my remaster works and using them when I traded with a certain person who shall go unnamed. If you want an excellent sounding copy of WW just PM me for a trade deal... cost $0
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  4. #29
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    Is the Tachika (not from Japan, US pirate (well known guy here)) the LP or the CD Version
    of the Album?

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheH View Post
    Is the Tachika (not from Japan, US pirate (well known guy here)) the LP or the CD Version
    of the Album?
    The original LP-version from 1976.
    The cover is a cheap copy of a not very good looking LP-cover; especially the back cover is quite low in the ink...

  6. #31
    Member TheH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interbellum View Post
    The original LP-version from 1976.
    The cover is a cheap copy of a not very good looking LP-cover; especially the back cover is quite low in the ink...
    Thanks, I have the LP so that one is of no need for me. Have to spent some money on the legit CD then..

  7. #32
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    not only that, but after I stopped trading with a certain person 10 years ago, Tachika product became sonically inferior. It used to be that Tachika was getting my remaster works and using them when I traded with a certain person who shall go unnamed. If you want an excellent sounding copy of WW just PM me for a trade deal... cost $0
    Got it from you years ago, bay-bay!

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    not only that, but after I stopped trading with a certain person 10 years ago, Tachika product became sonically inferior. It used to be that Tachika was getting my remaster works and using them when I traded with a certain person who shall go unnamed. If you want an excellent sounding copy of WW just PM me for a trade deal... cost $0
    Thanks to Mysterious Traveller, I am enjoying my first listens to this very diverse album. Like many, I think the first two tracks are McGalughlin/RTF like. But the rest is either very "Shadowfax" or a mix of the two.

    Thank you, MT!

  9. #34
    There is now an official digital release of this now, just put out

    https://www.amazon.com/Watercourse-W...r=8-1-fkmrnull

    I found a used copy of the Windham Hill last year for a decent price. From what I read the cd mix isn't drastically different from the lp.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeprogmeister View Post
    There is now an official digital release of this now, just put out

    https://www.amazon.com/Watercourse-W...r=8-1-fkmrnull

    I found a used copy of the Windham Hill last year for a decent price. From what I read the cd mix isn't drastically different from the lp.
    that's the Windham Hill cover not the Passport cover... I don't think that's the original album. Windham Hill doctored it up quite a bit when they released it.
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  11. #36
    Member yesman1955's Avatar
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    Wow! Lowest Amazon price for a used CD copy of the WH version is $50, highest is $150. I still have my 1976 Passport LP purchased same year for less than $10.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    that's the Windham Hill cover not the Passport cover... I don't think that's the original album. Windham Hill doctored it up quite a bit when they released it.
    There is a thread here on PE where rcarlberg provides a pretty definitive analysis of the differences. Note that this wasn't Windham Hill imposing changes but the band, with greater recording experience and resources, taking the opportunity to make what they viewed as corrections and improvements.
    Last edited by Mascodagama; 1 Week Ago at 07:41 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    There is a thread here on PE where Rcarlberg provides a pretty definitive analysis of the differences. Note that this wasn't Windham Hill imposing changes but the band, with greater recording experience and resources, taking the opportunity to make what they viewed as corrections and improvements.
    Ryko didn’t make Zappa erase Jimmy Carl Black And Roy Estrada from We’re Only In It and Ruben, but he was still wrong and so was Shadowfax.

    IMO.
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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Ryko didn’t make Zappa erase Jimmy Carl Black And Roy Estrada from We’re Only In It and Ruben, but he was still wrong and so was Shadowfax.

    IMO.
    I don't think the two cases are remotely comparable in terms of the significance of the changes, which with Watercourse Way largely amounted to tweaks. But I obviously wasn't posting in order to say the Windham Hill version was preferable - subjective, innit? - merely to correct the implication in Mysterious Traveller's post that the changes to the Windham Hill version amounted to record company interference, which by all accounts they didn't.

    EDIT: Also, there is a potential source of confusion here, because some people mistake the remixed Watercourse Way CD (minor changes to the original version) with the fact that on their second Wyndham Hill album release, Shadowdance, they recorded completely new versions of the tracks Watercourse Way and Song For My Brother that originally appeared on the Watercourse Way album. These are much more "New Age" / blander than either the original or remixed versions on the two versions of the Watercourse Way album.
    Last edited by Mascodagama; 1 Week Ago at 07:44 PM.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    that's the Windham Hill cover not the Passport cover... I don't think that's the original album. Windham Hill doctored it up quite a bit when they released it.
    I think "A little bit" not quite a bit, imo.

  16. #41
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    one of the reviewers on Amazon wrote this:

    MightyFavog
    4.0 out of 5 starsBeware! Same Group, Same Title, Two Different Albums.
    May 31, 2008
    Format: Audio CD
    I own both the 1976 Passport Records and the 1985 Windham Hill LPs (I do not own the Windham Hill CD). They are NOT the same! The 1976 version is much more frantic, electric, and progressive. Assuming you have access to both, check out 6 minutes into The Book of Hours: the lyricon solo is missing on the Windham Hill version. That solo was rough, grating, unique, and really defined early Shadowfax. Even the title cut has the tempo mellowed for the Windham Hill version. There are other differences. Which is better? Personally, I prefer the original. Good luck finding it.
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    I don't think the two cases are remotely comparable in terms of the significance of the changes, which with Watercourse Way largely amounted to tweaks. But I obviously wasn't posting in order to say the Windham Hill version was preferable - subjective, innit? - merely to correct the implication in Mysterious Traveller's post that the changes to the Windham Hill version amounted to record company interference, which by all accounts they didn't.

    EDIT: Also, there is a potential source of confusion here, because some people mistake the remixed Watercourse Way CD (minor changes to the original version) with the fact that on their second Wyndham Hill album release, Shadowdance, they recorded completely new versions of the tracks Watercourse Way and Song For My Brother that originally appeared on the Watercourse Way album. These are much more "New Age" / blander than either the original or remixed versions on the two versions of the Watercourse Way album.
    Hmmm...bland?

    If by bland, you mean "some differences" I would agree. If you don't like the later versions I have no problems with that. But I would never use the word bland to describe anything on a Shadowfax album.

    The two tracks cited that do also show up on later albums are different in some ways but to me, they reflect subtle instrumentation changes and arrangement differences that the band consciously chose to change. I hear many small differences but I don't feel that they add up to a specific attempt to re-make them in some specific, genre-related fashion nor do I think they were "pressured" to adhere to a formula. The changes--to me--do not represent any clear or obvious trend. They are simply different. As a musician, I too would approach re-recording an older tune in a similar way. I would want the newer version to reflect the changes that I had made as a musician. I assume Shadowfax felt the same way and thus, made the changes that felt right to them.


    Again, bias is fine...we all have them. I don't mind if you dislike some or all of the versions. You simply don't advance this discussion in any meaningful way with your observations.

    (Now as far as the first two tracks on WW, yes, they are absolutely very different than anything else on a Shadowfax album. The intensity and rawness is a real treat to hear.)

  18. #43
    I don't get the labeling of Watercourse Way as 'crossover prog'?

    It is no less or more prog than many other albums labeled as 'prog'. I don't see the need for the 'crossover' designation.

    Has signs of Jazz fusion, Folk you name it ,This record has everything.
    So does Maniage from Canada, for example. I have never seen them as labeled anything other than prog.

    Doesn't a whole lot of much of the music we label as prog, have 'signs of Jazz fusion, Folk you name it , prog has everything'?

    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    I love Shadowfax. Even the Windham Hill stuff is great!!!
    I am not a fan of 'new age', but Shadowfax's 80's output seemed to have more going for it than that label would imply.

    I too, liked most of their 80's stuff.
    Last edited by simon moon; 1 Week Ago at 05:23 PM.
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  19. #44
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I am not a fan of 'new age', but Shadowfax's 80's output seemed to have more going for it than that label would imply.

    I too, liked most of their 80's stuff.
    there's some excellent music on every Shadowfax album right up to the last one IMO but WW is the only one that Rocks hard
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  20. #45
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I don't get the labeling of Watercourse Way as 'crossover prog'?

    It is no less or more prog than many other albums labeled as 'prog'. I don't see the need for the 'crossover' designation.



    So does Maniage from Canada, for example. I have never seen them as labeled anything other than prog.

    Doesn't a whole lot of much of the music we label as prog, have 'signs of Jazz fusion, Folk you name it , prog has everything'?



    I am not a fan of 'new age', but Shadowfax's 80's output seemed to have more going for it than that label would imply.

    I too, liked most of their 80's stuff.
    From my experience, the stickiest wicket in any conversation about Progressive Rock is what qualifies as Progressive Rock. There are disagreements about that all the time around here.

    Perhaps the only label that has even more confusion and has even less meaning is the term "New Age." No other label has been as worthless as it. (Anything that doesn't qualify as Rock, Funk, Soul, Jazz, or Progressive Rock gets thrown into "New Age.")

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    there's some excellent music on every Shadowfax album right up to the last one IMO but WW is the only one that Rocks hard
    Yep!

    I saw them live at a Club called Hop Sing's in Santa Monica after they released a couple of Windham Hill records.

    I was expecting the entire set to be in a mellower, Windham Hill style. But they played with intensity and fire the entire night. The material from Watercourse Way was played with the intensity of the original release, and even the Windham Hill material was played with a bit more fire than the albums.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  22. #47
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Badass.


  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Yep!

    I saw them live at a Club called Hop Sing's in Santa Monica after they released a couple of Windham Hill records.

    I was expecting the entire set to be in a mellower, Windham Hill style. But they played with intensity and fire the entire night. The material from Watercourse Way was played with the intensity of the original release, and even the Windham Hill material was played with a bit more fire than the albums.
    Awesome! Wish I could've seen 'em back then.

  24. #49
    Lead guitarist, G.E. Stinson is alive and well, and still performing on a frequent basis around Los Angeles.

    He has veered into the improv/free music vein since his Shadowfax days.

    He can be seens with the likes of Vinny Golia, Nels Cline, Stuart Liebig, Jim Black.


    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  25. #50
    I don't really care about labels, but they started out as a combination between Mahavishnu and Oregon, so I guess that could be "crossover prog".

    Kind of an interesting story when you read about it. Really the band had broken up after Watercourse Way and after Greenburg moved to California he got Will Ackerman interested in signing him based on playing lyricon on an Alex de Grassi album. Then he got the band back together instead and their career took off. The first Windham Hill album was quieter and more acoustic to fit in the Windham Hill sound, then subsequent albums brought back more of an electric sound.

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