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Thread: Young Gary Lucas trashes Larks Tongues In Aspic

  1. #1

    Young Gary Lucas trashes Larks Tongues In Aspic

    While listening to the KC LTIA anniversary boxset I read therough the booklett and Fripp reprinted a 73 review by the young (and arrogant) Gary Lucas for the Zoo World Mag. The review is well written and fun to read but very negative. Seen his carreer to come, one can understand his point of attack, but it's still strange that he took one of the masterpieces of 73.
    Here is the review:

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    Last edited by alucard; 09-12-2018 at 06:47 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  2. #2
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Gary Lucas doesnt seem to get what music (also) is about...

  3. #3
    First: thx for posting. Lucas is a major force in modern "out-guitarism", and I've read enough interesting interviews with the guy to warrant yet another insight. And come to think of it, I don't think I've had the opportunity to read anything as early as this by him.

    So, he takes on one of the holy grails of more "experimentalist" progressive rock of the early 70s - and doesn't like or approve of it at all. While still commending the first three KCs and bashing Islands - the latter of which he apparently hasn't dived too much into given the fact that he claims there to be a "sidelong orchestral track".

    Why am I not surprised? He enters from the angle of the wannabe-scholarly avant-garde (rock), in which virtue at the time rested primarily on parameters of crude innovation and often provocation. Following through with attention to scrutiny in a work as sensitively attemptive as LTiA back in '73 may not have impressed the aficionados, but the main KC audience weren't from that ilk of the listening habitus. To them - the target segment - this album sounded daring, bold and indeed provocatively so, and I suppose this why such status has been upheld.

    Of course, by 1973 the "average" progressive rock enthusiast was no longer in it for the weirdness or radical experimentation. Apart from a handful of established names and a larger bulk of underground ones, especially in Europe, avant-garde antics were happening in other areas of rock than that of the self-proclaimed allegedly "progressive" branch.

    My own position is this: seen as "serious" traits of experimentalism, LTiA may not have neither stood the test of time nor been too succesful at that to begin with. But then we'd forget how this was essentially about rock musicians leaving their depths. For that reason in particular, I'm ready to forgive the pretentiousness and arrogance, while not condoning it.

    It is what it is. Not more, not less.

    Of course, Lucas couldn't know back in '73 how mercilessly influential this album would turn out to be on future developments in experimental rock and metal. But for that I can forgive him. It would be interesting to hear how he felt about this nowadays.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  4. #4
    John Wetton doesn't sound anything like Jon Anderson.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    It would be interesting to hear how he felt about this nowadays.
    I was thinking the same.

  6. #6
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    "The well known break on 'Schizoid Man' did not draw heavily on 'studio gimcrackery.'"--Robert Fripp
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    "The well known break on 'Schizoid Man' did not draw heavily on 'studio gimcrackery.'"--Robert Fripp
    Yeah, I remember that one from the extensive writeups in the booklet to Young Person's Guide. But to be fair, this was not in response to Lucas, who's own endeavours in music speak for themselves and who certainly wouldn't have to apply shallow and easy conclusions as to technicalities of performance.

    Lucas addresses one of the points which obviously provoked "avant-gardists" the most, namely the incessant pretentions of Fripp's artistic self-image - which was, is and remains somewhat bloated. And he's in his perfect right to do so, as is Chris Cutler on dismantling the "highbrow" credibility of KC as a unit dedicated to free improvisation - and in their own presentation exclusive at that. But this is still besides the essence; KC were "rock'n'roll" not only at heart but in accoutrements. Of course, so were Beefheart and the Magic Band - but furthermore they were oddballers with far less of a self-conscious and artistically overblown adherence to the avant-garde than KC. Which I guess is some of Lucas' own argument.

    Still, like I stated before; one should dig an album like LTiA directly for what it says, not for its apparent implications of "expression". At the end of the day it's all about interpretation.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #8
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    That is quite a review! What this review (and reviews in general I guess) cannot capture is the visceral joy and wonder that I felt when I first heard LTIA in '81 or so as a 14 year old. It was probably the 2nd KC album I ever heard, the first being S&BB. Then Discipline came out a few months later. What all three of these albums had in common is that I loved them from the second the needle hit the vinyl. And even at that impressionable age, there were relatively few of those.

    Who cares if it was "avant-garde" or not? Who cares whether David Cross is a competent violinist or not? Or how pretentious RF is/was? LTIA and S&BB took me to a new world.

    I admit I have burned out on Wetton-era KC. Its charms are mostly gone after listening far too many times to far too many KCCC releases for 20-some years. But still the impact on my musical life has been immeasurable.

  9. #9
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    Gary Who?
    The Prog Corner

  10. #10
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    Fripp pretentious? I really don't see it. It's not like he posts his own aphorisms to DGM Live... Oh wait...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    Fripp pretentious? I really don't see it. It's not like he posts his own aphorisms to DGM Live... Oh wait...
    Let all who spout wisdom, Beware! Let all makers of wise sayings, run for the hills!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    Gary Who?
    Which is all a very well logic, were it not for the painful fact that in certain circles of modern "experimental rock (guitar)", Fripp himself is a name of yore at best, a close-to-nobody at Worst, or indeed one who's remembered/preferred as the tone of Bowie's "Heroes" and little else. Whether or not the hardliners of "prog-rock" decide to believe it, rock music moved on from KC and into the way beyond.

    Which certainly doesn't take away their music's importance in the grander scheme of things. Check the thread on math-rock at this very site; there may have been other influences more or -as- relevant as Fripp's, but I'd be hard pushed to imagine the best of them without his work - and particularly LTiA and SaBB.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  13. #13
    The funny thing that Lucas runts off against classic prog through his LTIA review with mentioning some "defaults" that could easily be applied to most classic prog groups, while Fripp always tried to get rid off his classic prog image. Fripp must have been quite amused by replicating this review for the boxset.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  14. #14
    All Things Must Pass spellbound's Avatar
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    The same Gary Lucas from Beefheart's Magic Band? Only Gary Lucas I ever heard of.
    We're trying to build a monument to show that we were here
    It won't be visible through the air
    And there won't be any shade to cool the monument to prove that we were here. - Gene Parsons, 1973

  15. #15
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spellbound View Post
    The same Gary Lucas from Beefheart's Magic Band? Only Gary Lucas I ever heard of.
    That's him. And you'll notice he mentions the Magic Band in his review. He would have been around 21 at the time he wrote this.
    Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    you'll notice he mentions the Magic Band in his review.
    Although he didn't join until later. His input on Ice Cream for Crow is outstanding.

    In all fairness, Lucas' overall resumé is highly impressive - not least in terms of versatility. As with Marc Ribot or Jim O'Rourke or Nels Cline, Lucas seems adept in just about every context you'd place him - typically adapting while still retaining an "inner self" in sound.

    Ach! The guy was young and needed to make a mark. Anybody remember Fripp's own statements in '69 on how Hendrix was "[…] a terrible guitarist", prompting members of The Deviants to facilitate sit-down action as a protest during one of KC's early support slots? I sincerely doubt if any of them would be be as equally comfortably cocky today.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  17. #17
    Settling the question I had considered asking about whether we know it was the same Gary Lucas, here is an article he wrote for Zoo World around the same time about Beefheart that is now on his website.

  18. #18
    Lucas should be hunted down and forced to submit to the inner laws and lores of the sympho, but presumably he wouldn't understand since they're so complex and can only be comprehended by a supreme elite.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  19. #19
    Member Morpheus's Avatar
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    https://www.hit-channel.com/interviewgary-lucas/64947

    In 1973 you wrote a negative review of King Crimson’s “Larks’ Tongues in Aspic”.

    (Laughs) Oh, that is haunting me! I’ll tell you this: I’m not the proudest person of this review. King Crimson is one of my favourite bands and the review was a juvenile effort of my part. Let put it this way: The older I get, the more I would say that I wasn’t a very good critic. The review was a reaction to some press interviews that Robert Fripp had made, bragging about his music. When I was doing it, I believed that it was good, honestly. Not as good as “In The Court of the Crimson King” but reasonably good. Anyone who sees it, shouldn’t take offence to it. I believe that Robert Fripp is a great artist. I still have the single “Cat Food” (ed: from the album “In The Wake of Poseidon”-1970) on my wall, that was quite experimental. But once I heard the b-side “Groon”, I said that it was not the one Magic Band. Now having been on the other side, I think that you have to be careful about it, because I have realised that music business is such a big circus, a big camp and I was so young then. I think a lot of reviews I did then were bad. We tended to be very dismissive. Now, I know that you have to listen to something very carefully before you are going to write about it. Yes, I was a little harsh (laughs). My apologies to Mr. Fripp.

  20. #20
    ^^^ Well, there you go!

    "Groon" indeed being the one track where you can actually hear how Fripp has been exposed to recent Beefheart. Who, btw, bragged about his music too.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  21. #21
    Erreur de jeunesse :-)
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  22. #22
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    Ice Cream For Crow!!! What a great record.

    Okay, I know who he is now.
    The Prog Corner

  23. #23
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    Erreur de jeunesse :-)
    Indeed, that's why I looked up his age above. I was hoping to be able to say he was just a teenager, but he wasn't far off.
    Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
    https://michaelpdawson.bandcamp.com
    http://www.waysidemusic.com/Music-Pr...MCD-spc-7.aspx

  24. #24
    Funny, that IS a harsh review that to me indicates he didn't listen very carefully. Still, his apology in that more recent interview makes sense. When I was in my late teens, early 20's, I was quite critical of things I didn't like, usually without even making any attempt to give them a chance. Hell, my friends and I used to diss on Genesis and Kansas before we ever heard any of their good stuff. Of course, with prog fans, you get this as a matter of course, even from the older crowd.

  25. #25
    It reminds me of the long forgotten but funny, but really funny, badprog blog, some reviews are beyond imagination, what a creative guy

    https://badprog.blogspot.com

    Dedicated to the very worst Progressive, Space, Zeuhl and Art rock composed, written and played from the birth of the genre until this very day. Because Bad Prog is as bad as it gets
    Last edited by John Doe; 09-13-2018 at 03:32 PM.

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