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Thread: What The Frak Is With Two Drummers?

  1. #51
    Saw Helloween last night, if you haven't heard.

    So the drum solo section of the night comes about and, rather weirdly as a drummer, I don't like very many people who do them in rock. Peart, ok, but most tend to be the same old stuff. I'm talking about the '80's or so and on from then.

    I admit to being jaded.

    So, back to the point. The drummer starts his thing and about two minutes in the screen behind them came up with Ingo Schwictenberg(hope I got that right) the original drummer for the band who IIRC was schizoid and jumped in front of a train.

    Damn cool moment there with both drummers doing different things. They even did the RIP at the end. Gotta admit, that was not just a cool drum solo but the tribute to him was special.
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  2. #52
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    Another band that comes to mind that had 3 drummers at one time were The Doobie Brothers. They were pretty good at doing the 3 drummer / percussionist live.
    What era was this triple drummer thing?

    And whom would've been the third one ?? (Knutsen and Hartman being the two during the 70's key years >> that that's pre-MMcd days).

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Why two drummers? Because it looks cool onstage. That's the reason 99% of the bands who have two drummers do it.

    Same thing with the Allman Brothers Band, most of the time, the double drums was superfluous.
    You know, I value your posts, but this one will be the exception.

    First, when you know how much space a drummmer takes in a van or on stage and how loud they are, you really think long and hard about getting a second one, because of the costs (space, jail baits and jail bailout), but also aural damage.

    So there's got to be a really solid artistical reason to have a second one around

    As for ABB, the two drummers were essential to their sound, but also important because of the fact that one of them was black, which sort of goes against the racist southern rock band cliché... But then again ABB rarely sounded like a normal southern rock band... at least in their ealy days (until and including Peach)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoony View Post
    So the drum solo section of the night comes about and, rather weirdly as a drummer, I don't like very many people who do them in rock. Peart, ok, but most tend to be the same old stuff. I'm talking about the '80's or so and on from then.

    I admit to being jaded.
    Ok, drum solo bore the fuck out of me, even in jazz... they're long, useless, and often inept. Live is àone thing but on vinyl, it's all too often a waste of electricty (recording) and black petroleum derivates, whether in the studio album or a single or double live album. However I do find that the Genesis duets or Peart's Strangiato pieces quite good, but that in part because they're kept short and they don't break the mood of a song.
    Generally when the drum solo starts, I head out for the toilet, pee, roll a joint and smoke it, fuck the barmaid and order a few brews (for the buddies I shamelessly abandoned keeping my seat empty) and get back to my seat as the solo ends
    Last edited by Trane; 09-09-2018 at 03:25 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    What era was this triple drummer thing?

    And whom would've been the third one ?? (Knutsen and Hartman being the two during the 70's key years >> that that's pre-MMcd days).
    They had a guy named Bobby LaKind who was only occasionally in band photos, but played congas on some shows and album cuts. I think mainly in the McDonald era, but maybe earlier too.

  4. #54

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Generally when the drum solo starts, I head out for the toilet, pee, roll a joint and smoke it, fuck the barmaid and order a few brews (for the buddies I shamelessly abandoned keeping my seat empty) and get back to my seat as the solo ends
    Man, that's a long time to spend smoking a j.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Ok, drum solo bore the fuck out of me, even in jazz... they're long, useless, and often inept. Live is àone thing but on vinyl, it's all too often a waste of electricty (recording) and black petroleum derivates, whether in the studio album or a single or double live album. However I do find that the Genesis duets or Peart's Strangiato pieces quite good, but that in part because they're kept short and they don't break the mood of a song.
    The drum solo is a funny thing. Peart turned it into something autobiographical but most just do the same old boring rudiments. At least in RnR, that is. I'm obviously not a jaz guy so I don't know much about that genre. I'd bet the jazz guys are better than most of the rock guys.

    Just do something interesting, right? I remember watching Bobby Rondinelli with Rainbow in '82, the concert that aired on EmptyV from the Straight Through the Eyes tour. The flam with the snare and the cymbal, where the stick went flying into the crowd. Wowed me at the time but damn, just do some crap like that. Anything except the usual bullcrap.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    First, when you know how much space a drummmer takes in a van or on stage and how loud they are, you really think long and hard about getting a second one, because of the costs (space, jail baits and jail bailout), but also aural damage.
    Double your drummers, double your trouble? Yeah, I suppose those are all reasonable points. It's bad enough when you've got one guy who keeps rushing the tempos, wants to sing and write songs, and at any moment could end up in the drunk tank on any given, but two?! Oy!

    Didn't Fripp say Jamie Muir took up something like 60% of the band's resources, in terms of set up time and transportation space? Mind you, Muir was far more than just "a second drummer".
    So there's got to be a really solid artistical reason to have a second one around
    Also consider that the more musicians you have in your band, in general, but especially with regard to percussion instruments, the more likely the music is to turn into a trainwreck or to be, at the very least, "too busy".


    As for ABB, the two drummers were essential to their sound, but also important because of the fact that one of them was black, which sort of goes against the racist southern rock band cliché...
    I didn't know there was a "racist southern rock band cliché", but again, you do make a good point about Jaimoe place in the band, in social terms. But as I recall, Jaimoe was going to be the drummer in the power trio that Duane was theoretically meant to be forming, so you'd have that aspect there no matter what. And continuing that thought, when Berry Oakley went home, he was replaced by Lamar Williams, who was also black.

    To me, when I listen to the various recordings I have of the Allmans, I don't hear the double drums as making that much of a difference, most of the time, but then maybe I'm just not listening closely enough. I don't buy that they never worked out anything beforehand. There's lots of things where you can hear the two fo them playing the same fills, at the same time. Same thing with the Dead. I suppose there's a sort of compound feel, if you will, the result of the two drummers having a different feel from each other, but beyond that, I think it's mostly subtle stuff.

    Oh, and count me among those who mostly find drum solos boring. The ones I like are actually when the rest of the band plays a vamp and the drummer solos over that, like on the Steely Dan song Aja, as one example. Also it helps if the solo is kept short.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    They had a guy named Bobby LaKind who was only occasionally in band photos, but played congas on some shows and album cuts. I think mainly in the McDonald era, but maybe earlier too.
    Yes, I saw them live in 1978, I think it was the "Living On A Fault Line" tour with the 3 drummer lineup of : Hartman, Knudsen and Lakind.

  9. #59
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoony View Post
    Just do something interesting, right? I remember watching Bobby Rondinelli with Rainbow in '82, the concert that aired on EmptyV from the Straight Through the Eyes tour. The flam with the snare and the cymbal, where the stick went flying into the crowd. Wowed me at the time but damn, just do some crap like that. Anything except the usual bullcrap.
    Saw that tour and the flying sticks and him sticking his face out his whole huge drum kit (in the "window"over the toms and under the cymbals) to get applause
    The opening Scorpions blew Rainbow off stage, as a good third of the crowd left during the intermission and another third during the Rainbow set.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I didn't know there was a "racist southern rock band cliché", but again, you do make a good point about Jaimoe place in the band, in social terms. But as I recall, Jaimoe was going to be the drummer in the power trio that Duane was theoretically meant to be forming, so you'd have that aspect there no matter what. And continuing that thought, when Berry Oakley went home, he was replaced by Lamar Williams, who was also black.
    Well, most of their bands prided to be rednecks or appealing to them and their confederate flag adoration implies somewhat in terms of racism, but I never detected outright racist lyrics in their music (but I never spent time deciphering them either). Add to that , Lynyrd's Alabama, where they blast NY for Southern Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    Yes, I saw them live in 1978, I think it was the "Living On A Fault Line" tour with the 3 drummer lineup of : Hartman, Knudsen and Lakind.
    Long lost interest by that time... Never could stand TCB once Baxter and MMcD were in the band
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  10. #60
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    Little known fact that Rush used to have a second drummer:


  11. #61
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Two drummers in an acoustic performance


  12. #62
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    Two drummers in an acoustic performance
    No way am I going to click on that, because I wouldn't want anything to spoil my illusion that it's Kiss covering the U.K. song.
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  13. #63
    Now that this is veering into including the subject of drum solos, the one and only time I did one was live in the studio covering the great Finn Forest track Paikalliset Tuulet. Their drummer is a fusion monster, and I am a total rock amateur by comparison, so I took a 30 second solo that hopefully won't bore anyone who wants to hear it. I think DPRP gave me a nice shout out in their review (or was it a different prog site?). Anyway, if you have 3:54, here's Pinnacle trying desperately to pay homage to the incredible players in FinnForest.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    Well, most of their bands prided to be rednecks or appealing to them and their confederate flag adoration implies somewhat in terms of racism, but I never detected outright racist lyrics in their music (but I never spent time deciphering them either). Add to that , Lynyrd's Alabama, where they blast NY for Southern Man.
    Well, it's hard to explain to people who aren't from the Southern US (I don't completely understand it myself), but Skynyrd's use of the Confederate flag was a display of regional pride, not an endorsement of racism. Gary Rossington has admitted he understand why people get upset about it, because for some people, the Stars And Bars is associated with the American Civil War, slavery, etc.

    As for Sweet Home Alabama, there's two things at work here:

    1. Ronnie Van Zandt wasn't dissing Neil Young because he wrote a couple songs (Southern Man and Alabama) about racism, but more so because of how Neil approached the matter. Addressing the commentary to "the Southern man" is a bit like writing a song about Nazis, and addressing it to "der Deutsch mensch". Neil has admitted he took the wrong tone with those songs and that he absolutely deserved the smack in the back of the head Ronnie gave him. For what it's worth, the Skynyrd guys were Neil Young fans, and Ronnie even sometimes wore a Neil Young shirt onstage.

    2. Sweet Home Alabama also mentions George Wallace, who was the pro-segregationist governor of Alabama at the time. The couplet goes "In Birmingham, they love the governor/Boo Boo Boo". The first line is sarcastic, as Birmingham is one of the cities where the civil rights demonstrations happened. When the song first came out, Wallace made the band honorary colonels in the state militia (so basically the same as Elvis' manager), but later, when the state legislature voted it to be the state song, he vetoed it, because by then, he realized the band had taken a swipe at him.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    No way am I going to click on that, because I wouldn't want anything to spoil my illusion that it's Kiss covering the U.K. song.
    The Kiss song came out about 4 years before the UK song, so anything, the illusion would be that UK covered Kiss.

    Your mission, if you choose to accept it: produce a video, using footage of Kiss, edited together and synced to audio of the U.K. song Nothing To Lose. As always, if you should fail, or are captured, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of you and your mission. This message will self destruct in 10 seconds. (cue the Lalo Schifrin music)

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Well, it's hard to explain to people who aren't from the Southern US (I don't completely understand it myself), but Skynyrd's use of the Confederate flag was a display of regional pride, not an endorsement of racism. Gary Rossington has admitted he understand why people get upset about it, because for some people, the Stars And Bars is associated with the American Civil War, slavery, etc.

    As for Sweet Home Alabama, there's two things at work here:

    1. Ronnie Van Zandt wasn't dissing Neil Young because he wrote a couple songs (Southern Man and Alabama) about racism, but more so because of how Neil approached the matter. Addressing the commentary to "the Southern man" is a bit like writing a song about Nazis, and addressing it to "der Deutsch mensch". Neil has admitted he took the wrong tone with those songs and that he absolutely deserved the smack in the back of the head Ronnie gave him.For what it's worth, the Skynyrd guys were Neil Young fans, and Ronnie even sometimes wore a Neil Young shirt onstage.

    2. Sweet Home Alabama also mentions George Wallace, who was the pro-segregationist governor of Alabama at the time. The couplet goes "In Birmingham, they love the governor/Boo Boo Boo". The first line is sarcastic, as Birmingham is one of the cities where the civil rights demonstrations happened. When the song first came out, Wallace made the band honorary colonels in the state militia (so basically the same as Elvis' manager), but later, when the state legislature voted it to be the state song, he vetoed it, because by then, he realized the band had taken a swipe at him.

    As an avid NY fan, have to take issue with some of this. NY was notorious for never directly explaining his lyrics or motivations in writing songs, and rarely if ever "apologized" for writing any of his tunes, especially ones like those, Ohio etc, where his feelings are plainly evident in the lyrics. So I'd like to see a quote or a source for that bolded part you attribute to NY. I've got just about every book on Neil, and I've never seen any admission that he was wrong or mistaken in writing Southern Man or Alabama. It is true he wasn't implying that every Southerner was a black-lynching racist, but the term "Southern Man" was meant to be thought of generically and not necessarily all inclusively.

    Now, the part about the "feud" btw NY and LS being overblown is true. They liked Young's stuff, there are photos of Ronnie wearing NY shirts etc, and Neil supposedly offered LS a few of his songs to record, notably Powderfinger. I think that gesture by Neil may have been as a kind of peace offering to LS after the back and forth songs, so they didn't hate each other and there was some mutual respect.

    Finally, these songs can sometimes be overanalyzed, but the Birmingham line in Sweet Home was sarcastic, that part is correct (site of a black church bombing where little black girls died) but I think you misunderstood the "boo, boo, boo" or "boo hoo hoo" which I think they actuallly sung. Those people are booing Wallace and LS is mocking that sarcastically. I don't think they are trying to imply their rejection of Wallace's racist policies by "booing" Wallace themselves--they are mocking the people booing Wallace. They then go on to say Watergate doesn't bother them either, ie another egregious act of government abuse of power. Clearly LS is supporting what went on to some degree, and they want this Canadian NY to mind his own business and leave us Southerners alone. So I don't think they are standing for a rejection of Wallace's racist policies in SHA--quite the opposite.

    In sum, it is true that Southern Man is stark and brutal lyrically--so is Ohio "tin soldiers and Nixon's coming"--and I've never seen NY back off or apologize for any of those social commentary tunes.
    Last edited by DocProgger; 09-12-2018 at 09:15 AM.

  17. #67
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    Some more on this from http://lynyrdskynyrd.wikia.com/wiki/Sweet_Home_Alabama

    Controversy

    "Sweet Home Alabama" was written as an answer to two songs, "Southern Man" and "Alabama" by Neil Young, which attacked the Southern United States as "racist". "We thought Neil was shooting all the ducks in order to kill one or two," said Ronnie Van Zant at the time. Van Zant's musical response, however, was also controversial, with references to Alabama Governor George Wallace] (a noted supporter of racial segregation) and the Watergate scandal:

    "In Birmingham, they love the governor (boo hoo hoo)

    Now we all did what we could do

    Now Watergate does not bother me

    Does You Conscience bother you?

    Tell the truth."

    In addition, the final chorus rhymes "where the skies are so blue" with "and the governor's true."

    In 1975, Van Zant said:

    "The lyrics about the governor of Alabama were misunderstood. The general public didn't notice the words 'Boo! Boo! Boo!' after that particular line, and the media picked up only on the reference to the people loving the governor. "The line 'We all did what we could do' is sort of ambiguous," Kooper notes "'We tried to get Wallace out of there' is how I always thought of it." Journalist John Swenson argues that the song is more complex than it is sometimes given credit for, suggesting that it only looks like an endorsement of Wallace. "Wallace and I have very little in common," Van Zant himself said, "I don't like what he says about colored people."

    In 1976, Van Zant and the band supported Jimmy Carter for his presidential candidacy, including fundraising and an appearance at the Gator Bowl benefit concert.

  18. #68
    ^^^
    eh, I'm not buying it. It's understandable that upon further reflection in the cold light of day, with how unpopular Wallace became as the face of racism in the South, that they would try to distance themselves from him by ascribing some kind of "ambiguity" to it. They wrote the song as an emotional reaction to Young's tunes and the song became and still stands as a Southern Anthem in defense of the Great old South. The song is not that complex or ambiguous, it's pretty straightforward in its chastising of NY and Young's tunes, and in defense of the South.
    As LS became more of a national band that played shows all over, they realized that toning down that Confederate message might be wise from a marketing standpoint outside of the Deep South.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    In sum, it is true that Southern Man is stark and brutal lyrically--so is Ohio "tin soldiers and Nixon's coming"--and I've never seen NY back off or apologize for any of those social commentary tunes.
    I don't know about the apology but in "Waging Heavy Peace" he more or less admits to having got it wrong with 'Alabama' and 'Southern Man', and that Skynyrd's response was well-deserved.

    I think the 'boo boo boo' in SHA is intended to undermine the preceding 'loved the governor' line, in case we didn't get the sarcasm first time round.

  20. #70
    Are we done talking about whether or not a song I’ve always found dreadful is racist or not? Can we get back to talking about the merits—or not—of multiple drummers?
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  21. #71
    Please sir it wasn't me it was Fred Drift.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Are we done talking about whether or not a song I’ve always found dreadful is racist or not? Can we get back to talking about the merits—or not—of multiple drummers?
    Yeah, I want to hear more about how many barmaids Trane claims he banged during double drum solos, and what bands they were!
    Last edited by DocProgger; 09-13-2018 at 09:50 AM.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Are we done talking about whether or not a song I’ve always found dreadful is racist or not? Can we get back to talking about the merits—or not—of multiple drummers?
    Thread drift can be quite cool and I just learned that the lyrics to Sweet Home Alabama weren't Whoo hoo hoo for just a musical dramatic effect but actual political statements.

    As the OP I say go ahead and derail this thread. It's PE and the knowledge here is amazing and any and all info you can throw my way is worth it.
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  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    ^^^
    eh, I'm not buying it. It's understandable that upon further reflection in the cold light of day, with how unpopular Wallace became as the face of racism in the South, that they would try to distance themselves from him by ascribing some kind of "ambiguity" to it.
    Given the fact that the song was written in 1973, and Ronnie Van Zandt passed away in 1977, I don't think there was much opportunity for "further reflection" on this or any other topic. If he intended to the line about "the governor" to be a swipe at George Wallace, I'm betting he meant it that way to begin with.

    They wrote the song as an emotional reaction to Young's tunes and the song became and still stands as a Southern Anthem in defense of the Great old South.
    I think the band felt like they were being talked down to by someone who was not only a Southerner, but from another country altogether. I've noticed Southerners tend to get real defensive about such things, especially when they view it as coming from an "outsider". That's what the Neil Young commentary is about. And I don't think it's defending the "Great Old South", it's defending the South in general. The "Great Old South" wouldn't include something like the Muscle Shoals studio musicians (the "Swampers" that Ronnie mentions in the last stanza).

    The song is not that complex or ambiguous, it's pretty straightforward in its chastising of NY and Young's tunes, and in defense of the South.
    Well, it's only complex in so much that Ronnie criticizes both Neil Young and George Wallace, though the latter does seem rather ambiguous. He's taking a swipe at a guy who wrote a song criticizing racism, as well as a guy who was known for being a racist. That's the only thing complex about it.
    As LS became more of a national band that played shows all over, they realized that toning down that Confederate message might be wise from a marketing standpoint outside of the Deep South.


    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    I don't know about the apology but in "Waging Heavy Peace" he more or less admits to having got it wrong with 'Alabama' and 'Southern Man', and that Skynyrd's response was well-deserved.
    The exact quote, according to Wikipedia, being:

    "My own song 'Alabama' richly deserved the shot Lynyrd Skynyrd gave me with their great record. I don't like my words when I listen to it. They are accusatory and condescending, not fully thought out, and too easy to misconstrue".

    I think it's the "accusatory and condescending" thing that Ronnie Van Zandt was responding to. That's the thing,


    I think the 'boo boo boo' in SHA is intended to undermine the preceding 'loved the governor' line, in case we didn't get the sarcasm first time round.
    I think that's what it comes down to. And I think Ronnie did his job pretty well, because you know, 45 years later, we're still talking about this stupid song, and exactly what the message was. That's the mark of a good songwriter.

  25. #75
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    Don't know if any of you are Drive By Truckers fans, but as part of their "Southern Rock Opera" concept album (loosely based on Skynyrd) one of the songs is called "Ronnie And Neil" that kind of tells the story:

    "Church blew up in Birmingham
    Four little black girls killed for no goddamn good reason
    All this hate and violence can't come to no good end
    A stain on the good name.
    A whole lot of good people dragged threw the blood and glass
    Blood stains on their good names and all of us take the blame
    Meanwhile in North Alabama, Wilson Pickett comes to town
    To record that sweet soul music, to get that Muscle Shoals sound
    Meanwhile in North Alabama, Aretha Franklin comes to town
    To record that sweet soul music, to get that Muscle Shoals sound
    And out in California, a rock star from Canada writes a couple of great songs about the
    Bad shit that went down
    "Southern Man" and "Alabama" certainly told some truth
    But there were a lot of good folks down here and Neil Young wasn't around
    Meanwhile in North Alabama, Lynyrd Skynyrd came to town
    To record with Jimmy Johnson at Muscle Shoals Sound
    And they met some real good people, not racist pieces of shit
    And they wrote a song about it and that song became a hit
    Ronnie and Neil Ronnie and Neil
    Rock stars today ain't half as real
    Speaking there minds on how they feel
    Let them guitars blast for Ronnie and Neil
    Now Ronnie and Neil became good friends their feud was just in song
    Skynyrd was a bunch of Neil Young fans and Neil he loved that song
    So He wrote "Powderfinger" for Skynyrd to record
    But Ronnie ended up singing "Sweet Home Alabama" to the lord
    And Neil helped carry Ronnie in his casket to the ground
    And to my way of thinking, us southern men need both of them around
    Ronnie and Neil Ronnie and Neil
    Rock stars today ain't half as real
    Speaking their minds on how they feel
    Let them guitars blast for Ronnie and Neil"

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