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Thread: Why the music industry is killing the music..

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Poisoned Youth, that's an excellent point about it starting with Cable TV, which started in, what, the mid 70s? You can even say as far as literature goes, that libraries are the same thing. The county I live in has a large file-sharing system, basically. So a huge number of people can share the same digital publications, and we all pay for it via our tax dollars.

    Maybe we need publicly-funded Spotifys?
    We've seen this massive switch in TV viewing from ad-supported free TV to subscription models. What has this done for the quality of TV? Many would say it's massively improved it. Netflix and the like are investing in great shows.

    Subscription models in music haven't produced any boon in the quality of music. Spotify don't commission albums. So, what's the difference? How do you get the revenue flowing into digital music platforms and get it spent on funding a next generation of musicians?

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    We've seen this massive switch in TV viewing from ad-supported free TV to subscription models. What has this done for the quality of TV? Many would say it's massively improved it. Netflix and the like are investing in great shows.

    Subscription models in music haven't produced any boon in the quality of music. Spotify don't commission albums. So, what's the difference? How do you get the revenue flowing into digital music platforms and get it spent on funding a next generation of musicians?

    Henry
    TV and Movies offer both sound and visual. Music lacks the visual for the dumbed down masses. It's getting worse and worse. Yes, there are some good shows, but if you look closely, most of it is still following the usual formula. Sex, violence, special effects, car chases, teen drama, zombies.

    Today's youth in general is not learning the nuance in music. Most couldn't tell a drum machine from Joe Morello. They know singers and a beat... that is about it. There is no motivation to learn music because there are few careers in it. Television and film, you have many careers that can pay decent to well to millions for even B grade actors and directors.

    When people go out for music today, it's more likely they will be at a Karaoke bar or a techno show rather than a jazz club, classical music hall or even a dive bar with a tribute rock band.
    Last edited by Skullhead; 4 Days Ago at 06:55 PM.

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    TV and Movies offer both sound and visual. Music lacks the visual for the dumbed down masses. It's getting worse and worse. Yes, there are some good shows, but if you look closely, most of it is still following the usual formula. Sex, violence, special effects, car chases, teen drama, zombies.
    I don't think someone called "Skullhead" can complain about zombies in TV shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    Today's youth in general is not learning the nuance in music. Most couldn't tell a drum machine from Joe Morello. They know singers and a beat... that is about it. There is no motivation to learn music because there are few careers in it. Television and film, you have many careers that can pay decent to well to millions for even B grade actors and directors.

    When people go out for music today, it's more likely they will be at a Karaoke bar or a techno show rather than a jazz club, classical music hall or even a dive bar with a tribute rock band.
    You're not coming across as someone who has met any youths.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  4. #154
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    You're not coming across as someone who has met any youths.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  5. #155
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I don't think someone called "Skullhead" can complain about zombies in TV shows.


    Henry
    We have a picture:

    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

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  6. #156
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    We have a picture:

    I've met Skeletor, and he is no Skeletor.

    Seriously though, and I know I've said this before, but my teenage son has excellent taste in music. He mostly likes music from the 60s and 70s (Beach Boys, Stones, Lou Reed, The Doors, Donovan, Bowie, Eno, John Cale
    and a lot of other artists I've never listened to (some 80s "alternative" stuff as well) - he really does use Spotify to explore music, and is always surprising me with the stuff he (and his friends) have gotten into. But on Halloween this year he went to see a rather interesting, sort of "lo-fi" indie artist named Alex G performing in a bookstore in Rochester. I can understand that he's not "typical," but as most parents will tell you, there's not really a "typical" with kids or teens. There are commonalities, but like us, they are all individuals.
    "Of course you are allowed to trumpet your profound ignorance by disagreeing with me." -- Facelift

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I've met Skeletor, and he is no Skeletor.

    Seriously though, and I know I've said this before, but my teenage son has excellent taste in music. He mostly likes music from the 60s and 70s (Beach Boys, Stones, Lou Reed, The Doors, Donovan, Bowie, Eno, John Cale
    and a lot of other artists I've never listened to (some 80s "alternative" stuff as well) - he really does use Spotify to explore music, and is always surprising me with the stuff he (and his friends) have gotten into. But on Halloween this year he went to see a rather interesting, sort of "lo-fi" indie artist named Alex G performing in a bookstore in Rochester. I can understand that he's not "typical," but as most parents will tell you, there's not really a "typical" with kids or teens. There are commonalities, but like us, they are all individuals.
    My son is 25 and I feel he has largely good taste as well...of course, music is something very important to me so I tried to teach and guide him along the way. But now he has a blossoming 400+ CD collection of his own. He's a fan of a variety of different music from Tom Waits to Genesis to Coheed & Cambria to Iced Earth. He buys what he loves and adheres to my advice "If there's a special edition, buy it."

  8. #158
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IncogNeato View Post
    My son is 25 and I feel he has largely good taste as well...of course, music is something very important to me so I tried to teach and guide him along the way. But now he has a blossoming 400+ CD collection of his own. He's a fan of a variety of different music from Tom Waits to Genesis to Coheed & Cambria to Iced Earth. He buys what he loves and adheres to my advice "If there's a special edition, buy it."
    Nice. What does he listen to his CDs on? For me, that's the biggest question for my son. Thinking back, my parents did buy me record players, from the close 'n' play to my first actual component system, and then I took it from there. But that all seems sort of unlikely now. I guess I need to have a conversation with him about it at some point, since I have a lot of CDs I can pass on to him. I suppose the vinyl resurgence will be my friend here, as it's helping keep component systems alive.
    "Of course you are allowed to trumpet your profound ignorance by disagreeing with me." -- Facelift

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Yup, I'm one of them. For the price of one album, I can pay Spotify and listen to as much music in one day as I could afford to buy in a year. So I happily pay for Spotify because it fits within my entertainment budget. I could go to a gourmet supermarket and pay $5.99/lb for grapes, but I go to another place and pay $1.99/lb. That's called smart shopping.
    Well, if that's what you call "smart," then ok. But I'll bet your Spotify stream sounds nothing like the high res downloads, Blu Ray pure audio, SACD or, frankly, many CD remasters/remixes that you've not got access to. Yes, you saved $4/pound on those grapes. But if (I can't say) those $5.99 grapes taste away better (they might), then you've sacrificed quality for quantity....which is precisely the problem with Spotify.

    Also, those folks who supply the $1.99/lb grapes still make money from the sale of their grapes' I suspect. Those musicians (Well, most of them) who are forced to participate in Spotify, either by their label or due to fan pressure, do not.

    It may be "smart shopping" for you, but it contributes to the problems musicians are facing today, already discussed at great length. If all that matters to you is the deal, and not the consequences of it, well, there's little for us to discuss further.

    If your entertainment budget is a mere $10/month (which I doubt), then in the old days you'd save up and buy an album that would likely become a very important part of your life..because you didn't have access to everything for cheap, but because you actually had to save and wait to get it. Delayed gratification has become a lost virtue in today's time, when people either find free or very cheap alternatives to accessing music, rather than having to wait until they could afford to buy it.

    Listen, I'm by no means ignorant of the fact that things change, and that yesterday's business models aren't today's. But when today's models generate lots of money that go to everyone but the people who actually make the model possible in the first place, then something's wrong.

    And I'm actually not anti-streaming. I'm anti the idea of musicians making far less from it than they used to in other methods...while others are still raking it in. As Esoteric's Vicky has said on iccaaaion, the problem with streaming is offering an "all you can eat" buffet of music for such a low price tha that most musicians won't make much (if any) money for their work. F streaming was set up to offer programs that eithe limited the number of tsreams available to you per month in a scaled fashion, or -not unlike cable tv today, which offers specific channels for very reasonable monthly fees but if you want them all, you pay a lot more (albeit still discounted...the idea of the mire you buy the better the price makes a lot of sense to me) - offer genre-based subscriptions or some other smaller subset of all (and if you pat a premium price, then you get access to everything)? I'd find that a lot easier to accept, and it would still be working with contemporary models.

    The reason this doesn't happen, amongst many, and the reason it won't happen, however, is because people have become so used to music for free, that a streaming service has to offer you a LOT for very little.

    And here we are, with labels like Cuneiform a greatly reduced (albeit still great) shadow of its former self, Qbstract Logix pretty much gone entirely, artists like Metheny sitting with five albums in the can and no clear idea what to do with them, online stores like ReR USA shutting its virtual doors and many musicians releasing music far less frequently, while DIY recording gear has, paradoxically, resulted in so much music being released (because it's cheaper to record) that it's a challenge to sift through it all and actually find the gold - not to mention so much competition making it imposssible for most everyone to actually think about making a living at music when, not that long ago, you might be a musician most people would never hear of, but you worked regularly enough to consider it a decent, middle claaa living.

    So, shop smart all you want, and good on ya, if that's all that counts. In some cases it makes sense.

    But count me as someone who, when it comes to the arts - which significantly improve my quality of life with something that is often less than tangible and should not be treated as a commodity (but now, sadly, is) - as a person of conscience and obligation, someone who feels duty-bound to support those people who help make my life better by giving them a reasonable wage that will, if others also do it, translate into something substantial enough for them to maybe actually live on their work.

    After all, if the people who also make my life better by providing things like food, shelter, education, health care, etc, were to have to deal with the business model most musicians do (and, sadly, in some countries there are some who do), then we'd be struggling to eat, put a roof over our heads and more.

    Not that I'm really comparing them. Yes, I could live without art, and cannot live without food or shelter. But my life is so much richer - assuming I am fortunate enough to be able to afford those things required to exist and still have some money to spare - because of the arts, that it seems perfectly reasonable to me that I should support it with some of that extra money....and support it in a way where I only get what I can afford, may actually have to save (and wait) for it, and not be offered just about everything for the cost of a couple cups of coffee, or one drink.

    That's the other thing that rankles me. Add up what most folks spend weekly on disposables like coffee, beer, wine, cigarettes...and then watch those same folks balk when told a CD (or however music can be acquired that suits you, but at a reasonable fee for the musicians/labels) will cost them somewhere between $8-20, and look at the outrage.

    I'm rambl8ng, but how is the cost of a couple cups of coffee anywhere comparable to something that will last you and bring happiness to you your whole life?

    So, if we accept that today's technologies are here (no problem with that), how about a pricing model that offers still good value, but not, at just $10/month, the keys to the entire freakin' kingdom?

    If streaming were more like cable tv subscriptions (or digital radio, for that matter), I'd have less issue. It's that folks can look at $10/month as their entire music budget and things that's ok. And truly, I'm not actually criticizing you Splicer (though I suppose it did for most of this long winded post)...if that kind of deal is in offer, why wouldn't most people take it?

    But there ARE consequences for doing so. And we've already begun to see them. Beyond those I've already mentioned, I know a great many artists who used to release an album every year or two, and now do it every four or five. And then get criticized because it's been so long since they last released something. If you're ok with the consequences of supporting a model that is contributing to the current landscape, I really can't fault you...other than to say I hope never to hear you complain about a favourite artist who hasn't released anything in some time .

    So I'm not really being critical of you...you just gave me a good jumping off point for a lot of ramblings...
    Cheers,
    John
    John Kelman
    Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
    Freelance writer/photographer

  10. #160
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    ^^^^^

    John,

    Save your breath for people for whom music has value.

    IMO.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  11. #161
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    ^^^^^

    John,

    Save your breath for people for whom music has value.

    IMO.
    Speaking of value, thanks for the live Happy the Man special this weekend.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  12. #162
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    Speaking of value, thanks for the live Happy the Man special this weekend.


    You’re welcome.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Well, if that's what you call "smart," then ok. But I'll bet your Spotify stream sounds nothing like the high res downloads, Blu Ray pure audio, SACD or, frankly, many CD remasters/remixes that you've not got access to. Yes, you saved $4/pound on those grapes. But if (I can't say) those $5.99 grapes taste away better (they might), then you've sacrificed quality for quantity....which is precisely the problem with Spotify.

    (...)

    But there ARE consequences for doing so. And we've already begun to see them. Beyond those I've already mentioned, I know a great many artists who used to release an album every year or two, and now do it every four or five. And then get criticized because it's been so long since they last released something. If you're ok with the consequences of supporting a model that is contributing to the current landscape, I really can't fault you...other than to say I hope never to hear you complain about a favourite artist who hasn't released anything in some time .

    So I'm not really being critical of you...you just gave me a good jumping off point for a lot of ramblings...
    Cheers,
    John
    John, thank you for expressing it better than I could have done. I completely agree.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Nashorn View Post
    John, thank you for expressing it better than I could have done. I completely agree.
    I completely agree as well.

    And I think there are enough examples of young people who take interest in music and not only stuff one hears on the radio.

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