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Thread: Why the music industry is killing the music..

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by SunshipVoyager1976 View Post
    Geffen always struck me as a greedy, arrogant prick.
    Most of those guys strick me as "greedy arrogant pricks"..., e.g. Leonard Chess, Clive Davis, Saul Zaentz, even Ahmet Ertegun to an extent. All those guys ripped off their clients to one extent or another.

  2. #52
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    exactly like I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Most of those guys strick me as "greedy arrogant pricks"..., e.g. Leonard Chess, Clive Davis, Saul Zaentz, even Ahmet Ertegun to an extent. All those guys ripped off their clients to one extent or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post

    At least half the blame lies with the 'fans' who say they care and say that they are angry that 'the man' rips off their musician heroes, but who also don't give a fuck about ripping off their heroes themselves via streaming and get angry when you point out to them that it makes no money for the artists. Period.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    exactly like I said:
    Well, speaking for myself, I've bought a lot of music over my life, and continue to do so. I buy a lot of new CD's. How much of the money actually makes it to the artist? Generally, I couldn't tell you. But hopefully, I'm at least contributing at least a little bit to whatever money does make it's way to the artist.

    And I've never used radio, MTV, Youtube, streaming, what-have-you as a replacement for actually buying music.
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:28 PM.

  4. #54
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Well, speaking for myself, I've bought a lot of music over my life, and continue to do so. I buy a lot of new CD's. How much of the money actually makes it to the artist? Generally, I couldn't tell you. But hopefully, I'm at least contributing at least a little bit to whatever money does make it's way to the artist.
    I never said you didn't buy music. That isn't my point.

    But it sure is easy to point fingers at David Geffen and Clive Davis....
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I never said you didn't buy music. That isn't my point.

    But it sure is easy to point fingers at David Geffen and Clive Davis....
    Well, yes, point taken. And maybe Clive Davis isn't quite as "greedy" as the other guys I named, maybe he just has questionable judgement (e.g. making the Grateful Dead work with producers associated with the likes of Fleetwood Mac and Foreigner, or putting out an Allman Brothers Band record that has synthesizers on it).

    But the other guys I named certainly scammed most or all of their clients. Saul Zaentz even inspired John Fogerty to write a song about him. Then, perhaps making Fogerty's point for him, Saul sued him for ripping off one of his own songs.

    At the time of his death, Leonard Chess reportedly had a whole briefcase full of IOU's he'd written out to various people signed to his label who he'd never paid.

    And if Jimmy Page was able to spend many years living in Aleister Crowley's mansion, it probably had more to do with the fact that he had Peter Grant looking out for his interests*, than anyone at Atlantic saying "OK< for once, we're not gonna cheat these guys, we're gonna do this honorably".

    * or more likely, Grant was looking out for his own interests, to maximize the 10% he got from Zeppelin's earnings.

  6. #56
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Well, yes, point taken. And maybe Clive Davis isn't quite as "greedy" as the other guys I named, maybe he just has questionable judgement (e.g. making the Grateful Dead work with producers associated with the likes of Fleetwood Mac and Foreigner, or putting out an Allman Brothers Band record that has synthesizers on it).
    Chris

    I am not saying that label heads have the most musical interests of their clients in mind. They are there to maximize money. That isn't a secret.

    Did the Dead sell more records because of using those producers? It isn't like the Dead HAD no choice except to work with him. How come Clive gets the blame? The Dead WILLINGLY signed with his label and they were established. They could have chosen any label. They CHOSE to work with him possibly BECAUSE he would do these things.

    The fact that 'loyal fans' hated it is not the point. Apparently ALL PARTIES wanted those things.

    Repeat for your questions / accusations regarding Allmans.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    At the time of his death, Leonard Chess reportedly had a whole briefcase full of IOU's he'd written out to various people signed to his label who he'd never paid.
    Reportedly doesn't count for shit. Prove it or don't say it in a thread like this or you are making my point FOR me!

    Like I said, it sure is easy to point fingers. It's even easier when you don't have facts, just 'reportedlys'
    Last edited by Steve F.; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:56 PM.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #57
    ^ BUT STEVE, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! YOU - THE MOGULS - ARE PRECISELY THE MAIN PROBLEM! THE WAY YOU RUN AROUND YOUR ARTISTS LIKE THEY'RE SHITE AND PICK THEM WITH YOUR DIAMOND CANES! RUNNING AROUND IN YOUR SEMI-PINK LIMOS TO SPANK THE ARSES WITH THAT PLATINA CANE, STEVE, WEARING YOUR PELICAN-FEATHER OUTFIT ON EMERGING FROM THAT FOURTH-DOOR AND YELLING THAT THE DUDES AREN'T MAKING ENOUGH MONEYS!! GEEZ, CAN'T YOU SEE?? THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOU, MAN!

    Everyone has heard that line you gave to Dirk Bruinsma back when you spanked him with that diamond cane, man: "GOD DAMMIT, DIRK! I'M THE GODDAMN MOGUL INDUSTRY AND YOU F'N TOLD ME "OMNIUM" WOULD BE A HIT, MAN! SIT STILL WHILE I PUNISH YOU!"


    And then………. Dirk went quiet.


    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #58
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ^ BUT STEVE, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! YOU - THE MOGULS - ARE PRECISELY THE MAIN PROBLEM! THE WAY YOU RUN AROUND YOUR ARTISTS LIKE THEY'RE SHITE AND PICK THEM WITH YOUR DIAMOND CANES! RUNNING AROUND IN YOUR SEMI-PINK LIMOS TO SPANK THE ARSES WITH THAT PLATINA CANE, STEVE, WEARING YOUR PELICAN-FEATHER OUTFIT ON EMERGING FROM THAT FOURTH-DOOR AND YELLING THAT THE DUDES AREN'T MAKING ENOUGH MONEYS!! GEEZ, CAN'T YOU SEE?? THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOU, MAN!

    Everyone has heard that line you gave to Dirk Bruinsma back when you spanked him with that diamond cane, man: "GOD DAMMIT, DIRK! I'M THE GODDAMN MOGUL INDUSTRY AND YOU F'N TOLD ME "OMNIUM" WOULD BE A HIT, MAN! SIT STILL WHILE I PUNISH YOU!"


    And then………. Dirk went quiet.
    It's always hard to argue with truth and fact......




    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  9. #59
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post

    And then………. Dirk went quiet.
    I killed him. Is that what you're saying?

    I'll await the authorities.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  10. #60
    ^You let go of that cane right now, man! Judgement day is a-comin' for all that harm you did to da PLOG!

    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I killed him. Is that what you're saying?

    I'll await the authorities.
    Was that why the Blast 4tet took on such a new identity with Pad Conka? I fuck'n knew it; Dirk wasn't good enough lookin' for Steve F. and the crew; "We need some hot meat here!"
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  12. #62
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    "The older I get, the more I realize that cynicism is just realism spelled wrong."

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  13. #63
    jazz fusion, 80s, synth tommy_n_chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happytheman View Post
    Might be better served in OT forum..Interesting article nonetheless.. https://ir.citi.com/QnhL09FARMDbvMhn...An10iZxCkYc%3D
    FOLLOW THE MONEY
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  14. #64
    I use Spotify (free) as a way to explore bands I have not heard yet. If I hear something that strikes me, I immediately add it to my Amazon CD Want List and will purchase. If it doesn't strike me, then that band gets $0.0001 from Spotify for me testing them out.

    Unless HUGE bands like Metallica and U2 really make some noise and push their labels to remove their music unless fair pay can be negotiated, smaller acts and fringe acts stand zero chance.

    Speaking ONLY for myself, I have a job and I make music I like because I love doing it. I have been fortunate enough to have been part of over a dozen albums released on various labels and have received negotiated compensation for my participation. I have also done a LOT for free. Hell, I've even handed over my share of the show money to my guitar player because, honestly, he spends more money than I do in the scope of our band and, as cliche as it may sound, I don't do music for the money. If I had the means and the talent, I'd record all day and give the stuff away for free.

  15. #65
    if you are a musician/songwriter you are better off NOT digitizing your music, and selling it through the web, but just playing live at any venue you can find.
    This makes perfect sense. Better to not digitize it. Press on vinyl only. If you see a digital version online, sue the hell out of them. Make your money that way.

    If you go out and play someone else's music (as in a cover band), you are wasting your talents promoting something that you don't benefit from.
    Musicians should have this stamped on their foreheads.

    I think there is room out there for good, well written music to be performed live, and then Not released through "the beast" (Itunes - Amazon) which if you are a small artist, they will simply take your music, no thank you, and surprise - no royalties. Why get involved in that losing game?
    There must be room for this. It cannot be believed that the human consciousness has completely devolve into an inability to objectively appreciate a basic quality within real music.... in just one generation.

    Just play your music live, If you do get noticed, you may actually have some leverage to make something good happen.
    Not likely but possible. Certainly as or more possible than being discovered "online" and then something good happening.

    In my opinion, Digital is death.
    This is a shared opinion with me. It's a very unpopular opinion because everyone has been drinking the digital coolaid for decades now, getting sick, but still drinking it because it tastes good in an ideological sense (access to a global market at lightspeed)



    This whole "listen to any song you want in the universe for 10 bucks a month" thing is a model for complete desolation of future music.
    Of course it is. There needs to be a new model. While no one here has been able to suggest a new model worthy of consideration, it should not be ignored as a question. Great things can only happen in the genesis of the minds eye.

  16. #66
    The one interesting thing I see in the future is that we are all surrendering our autonomy and independence to our smartphones. It knows where we go, what we buy, what we listen to, who we associate with. The day may come when owning an illegal copy of music may be impossible, because someone will always know what you are doing at any point in your life. If this actually becomes the realty that looks like is coming, musicians may catch a break at some point and their music will be traceable, and perhaps having unlicensed copies of music will be impractical.

    Seriously, my wife was talking to me a few months back (in the same room, not on the phone) about how she has a bit of tinnitus, and her phone started sending her information about how to treat it - right out of the blue. It was listening, when we were unaware it was doing so. You cant tell me that capability is not being exploited by someone, somehow. If a phone can do this, it can track everyone's activities. No need to force inserting a microchip into people, they'll just voluntarily carry one around with them, happily and by choice. And it will know far more than a microchip would ever tell you.
    I got nothin'

    ...avoiding any implication that I have ever entertained a cognizant thought.

  17. #67
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ^ BUT STEVE, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! YOU - THE MOGULS -
    Leave it to a Norwegian to bring skiing into the discussion!
    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

    http://www.discogs.com/user/moecurlythanu/collection

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    Somehow this notion that musicians will continue to create music regardless ..... is a good thing. Well, what that really means is that the internet
    has allowed amateurs to take over and flood the channels with mediocrity (I'm being nice).

    There will not be another Zeppelin or you fill in the blank _______________

    Ease of accessibility and free downloads did nothing for the quality of music. The music industry lacks true professionals at all levels. Today, everyone is a musician, producer, composer, lyricist, engineer, promoter, tour manager, social media expert. Just as everyone is now a journalist, including me.
    Or, to go in a different direction, much pop music today sounds the same, thanks to a small number of producers/writers having a large chunk of the market. These producers will not go outside the box for fear of losing one cent of profit. Autotuned, homoginized, compressed mp3's, is the rule. Why are more people "renting" music? Maybe they no longer feel it's worth owning. And why should they, when the next big thing will most likely sound like the last big thing, only repackaged?

  19. #69
    jazz fusion, 80s, synth tommy_n_chucky's Avatar
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    Max Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by Progology View Post
    Or, to go in a different direction, much pop music today sounds the same, thanks to a small number of producers/writers having a large chunk of the market. These producers will not go outside the box for fear of losing one cent of profit. Autotuned, homoginized, compressed mp3's, is the rule. Why are more people "renting" music? Maybe they no longer feel it's worth owning. And why should they, when the next big thing will most likely sound like the last big thing, only repackaged?
    Started around the time of Back Street Boys - "Quit Playing Games (with My Heart)"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Ma...on_discography

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  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodelgoat View Post
    This whole "listen to any song you want in the universe for 10 bucks a month" thing is a model for complete desolation of future music.
    Yet despite the 10 bucks a month service, tons of bands keep making new music. What year to you expect making music to collapse?

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Elf View Post
    Quite true. A friend and I, both long-time Tull fans, were reminiscing (our 40th high school reunion is coming up Saturday -- Jesus!), and what we found more amazing than a record company allowing Thick as a Brick, an entire 44 minute album with basically one song, to be released, is that they then allowed the release of an equally long A Passion Play, also a continuous composition without a discernible single. That both went to number one in the States pretty much sums up how much different the musical landscape has changed. You could throw in Yes's Close to the Edge and TFTO, ELP's Brain Salad Surgery or Tarkus, and even incredibly long singles like Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody", "Hocus Pocus" by Focus or "Radar Love" by Golden Earring. FM radio stations played whatever they wanted, whole albums in many cases.
    Musicians still do records like that, I would point to and example like Kamasi Washington releasing "The Epic" and "Heaven and Earth", both 3 CD sets, as a similar bold move on both artist and the record company that both sold well and got some buzz.

    https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/20557-the-epic/

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by tormato View Post
    Musicians still do records like that, I would point to and example like Kamasi Washington releasing "The Epic" and "Heaven and Earth", both 3 CD sets, as a similar bold move on both artist and the record company that both sold well and got some buzz.
    Sold well is a relative word. Nothing like the popularity of the previous albums from the 70's. The music tastes of the general public have changed dramatically. They are less cultured, lack an appreciation for articulation and nuance as well as collaborative instrumental excellence. An entire creative craft has been thrown under the bus. It's very sad times.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    Sold well is a relative word. Nothing like the popularity of the previous albums from the 70's. The music tastes of the general public have changed dramatically. They are less cultured, lack an appreciation for articulation and nuance as well as collaborative instrumental excellence. An entire creative craft has been thrown under the bus. It's very sad times.
    For a community like us, fans of music, there are paramount concerns around how the industry functions and how that has changed with technology. But all this "kids today" stuff is nonsense.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullhead View Post
    Sold well is a relative word. Nothing like the popularity of the previous albums from the 70's. The music tastes of the general public have changed dramatically. They are less cultured, lack an appreciation for articulation and nuance as well as collaborative instrumental excellence. An entire creative craft has been thrown under the bus. It's very sad times.
    But this assumes that the massive sales of only a few groups as in the 1970s was some ideal. The record industry was an oligopoly which created a few big winners and was able to sell albums at a price much higher than had the music business been more competitive. The internet put a wooden stake through that distorted model, which is why we live in happy times, musically. But this transition isn't over so likely even better times ahead.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    But this assumes that the massive sales of only a few groups as in the 1970s was some ideal. The record industry was an oligopoly which created a few big winners and was able to sell albums at a price much higher than had the music business been more competitive. The internet put a wooden stake through that distorted model, which is why we live in happy times, musically. But this transition isn't over so likely even better times ahead.
    I get that it's healthy to keep a positive attitude and look at the cup as half full etc...
    But how on earth are these happy times musically when quality bands can't even make a living doing their art? How is it happy times that bands can't afford to tour and if they do get out there, they are playing to small audiences who can't pay them enough to fill their gas tanks and put a pillow under their heads in a decent hotel? How is it good that specialists have been eliminated and that bands have to do everything themselves now including promotion, sound engineering, marketing, all taking away from the time they should be focusing on their music and instruments? How is it good that the major internet promotion sites pay them next to nothing? How is it good that ticket prices for a decent band and decent seats are usually over $200 or more?

    I'll take a few successful groups in the 70's over NONE today.
    What are these better times ahead?

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