Without getting into the back and forth, I'll just say that was an excellent read. Thanks for sharing.
Without getting into the back and forth, I'll just say that was an excellent read. Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure...thanks for reading (truly!). It appears the back and forth is over, and I'm happy. That's all I'll say on that front.Originally Posted by Mstove
I'm getting near the end of my review of the 30CD Wishbone Ash box, and it's a big one...probably will run 9-10,000 words, which a box this extensive deserves (and if anyone is on the fence about buying, will hopefully tell them they balanced story they need to hear). It's not entirely positive; Ash put out some great records, some good records and some truly cringeworthy ones too, and without being trash-talking (not my style), I think I'm pretty fair about the strengths and weaknesses across the discography,
I will say this: the 11 CDs of live shows (in addition to the three commercial live releases included) that are previously unreleased are really what make this box worthwhile. Recorded between 1973 and 1980, it really captures the group at its best.
Anyway, that'll be my last one before starting two weeks of festival coverage, but it'll be long enough to keep folks busy 'til I am back to writing album reviews. And there are more boxes to come!
So, thanks for slogging through that lengthy read....and for your kind words. It really is my pleasure!
Cheers!
John
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
A wonderful review of my favorite album of all time.
My review of Esoteric Recordings' Deluxe Edition reissue of Chris Squire's Fish Out of Water, today at All About Jazz.
If ever there were an album that deserved the deluxe treatment, it would be Fish Out of Water (Atlantic, 1975), which would turn out to be (more or less) the only solo album ever released by Yes co-founder and electric bass trailblazer Chris Squire. There was a special remastered edition released in 2007 by Castle Music, but Esoteric Recordings' two-CD and, in particular, seven-disc Deluxe Edition multimedia edition well and truly trump that out of print edition, providing the kind of loving attention that is characteristic for the label to what is, truly, one of progressive rock's most memorable solo albums from the '70s.
Yes wasn't the first or only group to take a break in the midst of progressive rock's '70s heyday, during which time one or more band members would release one or more solo albums. The Moody Blues did it. Van Der Graaf Generator did it. Emerson, Lake & Palmer did it too, though rather than releasing solo albums the solo efforts were ultimately collected on the two-LP ELP set Works (Volume 1) (Atlantic, 1977), where each member of the trio was allotted one side, with the fourth side containing the band's first new material together since its epic Brain Salad Surgery (Manticore, 1973).
Some of these solo albums would do well. In the case of Rick Wakeman's first solo album for A&M Records, 1973's The Six Wives of a Henry VIII--recorded and released prior to the first of his numerous departures from (and, ultimately, returns to) Yes in the spring of 1974--doing very well indeed, selling over two million copies worldwide in its first year of release and with contemporary numbers in the vicinity of fifteen million. Still, most labels were skittish when faced with groups, in whom they'd invested significantly and which had achieved the truly massive critical and commercial acclaim Yes had, deciding to take a break from each other to pursue solo careers. The result was that many labels did not invest the same kind of money in marketing these solo albums as they did full-on band efforts, and Fish Out of Water is no exception, though it still managed to sell a healthy half million copies in its first year. Imagine how well it would have done, had Atlantic Records been as fully behind it as it had Yes' releases.
That said, Yes' hiatus was probably still a good thing. Despite still selling healthy numbers and attracting large audiences, the band's star had begun to fall somewhat, especially critically speaking, with 1973's Tales from Topographic Oceans and, curiously, '74's exceptional Relayer (both reissued, in recent years, with new stereo and surround mixes and a bevy of extras, by Panegyric Recordings). Wakeman's replacement following Topographic, Swiss keyboardist Patrick Moraz, brought some very fresh ideas to Relayer. Many, in fact, still consider Relayer to be the band's second-best studio album next to 1972's Close to the Edge, and there are those who still wonder what might have been, had Moraz not been summarily dismissed when Wakeman agreed to return for 1977's Going for the One.
Continue reading here...
I particularly like how well you describe the artistry and elegance of the extended section of "Safe (Canon Song)." Too many people see it as mere repetition. I usually liken it to the way great composers take a simple motif or melody and continually find more and more subtle aspects through careful orchestration with the various sections (and individual instruments in each section) of the orchestra. In particular, In "Safe," each new instrument reveals more and more textures that simultaneously allow us to celebrate all of the various instruments' uniqueness as well as Squire's compositional genius.
A brilliant album.
I am very frustrated that I had to make a choice between the super deluxe version and the CD-only package (which I purchased). I REALLY want to hear the 5.1 but just hate that I would pay for useless vinyl in order to get the 5.1 disc.
Another thing to point out about the reception Fish received is that the band itself did relatively little to promote it or the other solo albums. The supposed "Solo albums" tour in '76 essentially lasted about three shows before almost all the solo material was dropped and a Yes-only setlist drafted in to replace it. So much for promo.
One problem with Yes playing those songs on tour is that Howe's was the only album of the five that would lend itself to a live Yes treatment (and would have been a lot better with Anderson on vocals to begin with!). Fish, Olias and Story of i were radically different from an instrumental perspective and would need to be drastically rearranged to work in Yes. Alan's album was not even on the same planet as Yes stylistically.
30 cd’s of Wihbone Ash?! That’s about 27 too many! They should fire the marketing person that came up with that idea!
It would have worked out OK if they did this.
lip-sync/mime to the studio version?(but I know what you meant!
)
Until I found that clip yesterday, it was > 40 years since I saw it on TV! I was just starting to listen to Yes and one of the late night weekend shows (Kirshner or Midnight Special, I forget which) played the promo clips from a few of the solo records. I think that one, Howe's and I'm pretty sure Squire's were included, but it was all new to me at the time. Does anyone else recall that?
Yes, absolutely. The memory of the Squire clip rattled around my head until I bought the first "special" version of the CD back in 2007 or so and found the complete videos.
Younger people don't quite know how important those late-night weekend rock shows were to us.
Many thanks for the kind words!
Couldn't agree more!
I feel your pain. Seriously, I don't know why the choice was made to put both stereo mixes (+ bonus) on two CDs. A CD/DVD set with the new stereo mix on CD and both old& new stereo + surround mixes on DVD would, I think, have been s better way of having both a less expensive version and a pricier deluxe edition...that said, had they done that there'd be folks without DVD players who'd conplain about not getting both stereo mixes + bonus on CD.
The sad truth is that labels must constantly struggle with trying to meet the majority of people who might be interested in a reissue, have different budgets....and make it clear that they simply cannot please everyone.
It's definitely a conundrum about which they must deal virtually every day...
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Very true...
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Surprisingly, to me, that's not true. Yes, there are a few very forgettable studio albums, but with a total of 14 discs devoted to live recordings between 1973-80, it more than makes up for any studio deficiencies. And, as I said, a couple of albums have been unfairly overlooked...
....and Peter Reynolds' remastering is superb, as is the mixing of the live shows previously unreleased.
I was surprised to find, despite those few bad albums, how much of this box set I didn't just like but loved. And it's a beautifully put-together package. Up there with the Family and Hillage boxes, to be sure.
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
This!
None of the solo albums were in the same vein as the Yes albums, some of Wakeman's 8w's certainly had more of a Yes sound. Artist's always want to blame the promoters for their lack of success. I was there too- Howe's singing on the first album was horrible, White's album sounded like R & B, Squire's had long repetitive themes. These are reasons they did not sell like the Yes albums- it had nothing to do with lack of promotion. Whether it came from Squire's mouth or not. Though I purchased them all at the time, there was no way any of these solo albums would be chart busters.
I only suggest that the number of people that want 14 cd’s of live WA could fit in a modest-sized living room.
Not wanting to stir this up again, but I was also there. But one thing I have learned, when it comes to artists and their releases, is there's a lot more to it than meets public eyes in various markets. Sure, I recall some promo for FooW (and Squire did not suggest there was none...just not as much). But unless we know the promo budgets, which Squire would have and, unless there's anyone who was working for the label back then, then none of us know (myself included) the full truth. But, and I'm sorry guys as I lump myself in with y'all so mean no disrespect: if I am going to believe anyone, in th absence of hard numbers, it'll be the artist who was there, was involved in album releases and so simply know more than any of us did....or could. It seems straightforward to me, but clearly not for others.
But I rankle when I hear comments like "Artist's always want to blame the promoters for their lack of success." Again, with no disrespect, I don't know if anyone else whose been involved in this conversation is in the same situation, but having written about music for nearly 20 years and having met hundreds of artists, I can tell you that I can count the number "Artist's always want[ing) to blame the promoters for their lack of success" on one hand. Which is why I tend to take Squire at his word. Based on my experience, that's the way I see it.
As for not having the same commercial potential as Yes albums (and don't forget, as I mention in the review ... or Squire does, can't recall!), Six Wives was on a different label, who put a lot of money behind that record. I think FooW had as much commercial potential as Topographic Oceans. It has, after all, along with the extended sections, a number of songs both short enough and catchy enough, at least IMO, to garner if not as much attention as Yes intrinsically, certainly plenty to suggest it should have done well.
And it did. Half a million, even then, was a pretty damn good number for a progressive rock record. If Squire thinks additional promotional support could have made it even more successful, truly, who are we to argue? We can disagree all we want, but we don't have what we really know to determine if Squire spoke the truth or was, indeed, maybe a touch bitter (though I didn't think he came off that way at all). But with my experience engaging in the industry with artists of many areas, I've simply met too few who actually suggest labels and their promotion are responsible for any (perceived) failures they might have. So, with that experience, I tend to trust the artists rather than some folks here, who seem to distrust what artists say, and for reasons I do not understand.
I guess this is my final word on the matter, and folks who disagree will likely not be swayed, and that's ok. But I think it needs to be said: having been there as a fan at the time in no way gives you the broad perspective on how a label did or did not treat an artist, myself included, as back then, I was a fan and had yet to become involved in writing. But I now have nearly two decades of experience dealing with artists on a regular basis, and while what folks who disagree feel about Squire might be true, neither they nor I have actual evidence as to how things actually were.
But, irrespective of whether we agree or disagree, one thing I absolutely will say is this: "Artist's always want to blame the promoters for their lack of success" is about as close to an untruth, based on my experience. Whitewashing any group of people, whether it is writers (about which I've had to deal on occasion), artists, publicists, labels...whatever...is, simply, a flawed argument unless you've enough evidence to support it.
Mine suggest otherwise.
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Sure. You could've counted me as one of them...before I heard them. Now, truthfully, while there are some studio albums I will never play again (specifically Raw to the Bone and Twin Barrels Burning), there's a lot more that I will return to than I expected, walking into the review. I'd really only paid attention to the early stuff, and lost interest, at the time, after W4. But reviewing this box (as so often happens to me, to be honest) revealed a whole lot more to recommend than I expected.
So, you're probably right...which is why these mega boxes can be a hard sell. But it's also why I am attracted to reviewing them. Obviously I lean towards stuff I know, but every now and then I take on something like this, where I'm unsure how it will turn out.
In this case, I'm happy I did ...
Cheers!
J
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
Very few artists ever see the promo/marketing budgets around their projects. Squire may have a perception or a guess at how much was spent on what (vs. what he believed SHOULD have been spent where) and your direct contact with him about this matter allows you to state only one thing with absolutely certainty which is how Squire EXPERIENCED all of this. He may have EXPERIENCED the marketing/promo spend as being lower than what he believe appropriate in the context of what Atlantic spent on Yes (or other acts). He may have EXPERIENCED the degree of urgency in the marketing of FooW as being substantially below his expectations. He may have EXPERIENCED the team at Atlantic as being reluctant to pay as much attention or take a run at radio/press/marketing ideas in a manner consistent with his belief as to what would constitute a successful marketing initiative around his record. But the likelihood that Chris Squire sat down with a label accountant to review the line items around how much money was spent on the various marketing pieces—particularly as Mr. Squire would have no frame of reference for what the costs for pages of advertising, :30 spots on TV/radio, billboards in various part of the world—is pretty damn close to zero. I’m sure it was an interesting chat with Chris Squire about how he EXPERIENCED the marketing campaign around his record (and whether he believed the label did the right things) but that’s qualitatively different than his having any specific knowledge of the P&L/promo budget and how that may (or may not) have impacted the sales figures. Much more likely that Brian Lane had a good deal more specific insight and impact on those spends—how much he made from Yes vs the solo success isn’t something that should be discounted here either.
Finally, how good a record is, the perceived commercial viability and how well it sells can have little to do with one another...we’ve all seen that movie time and time again.
Daily jazz vinyl reviews on Instagram @jazzandcoffee
A hearty thank you to our commercial sponsors...and now back to the music.
Here is a wonderful "Fish" video by Miguel Falcao. If anyone ever wants to learn Chris' parts, start with Miguel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=Xh7iiinEjXc
I’m no insider, but I’m guessing Squire had a better idea of the marketing campaign than anyone posting here. Could he have been wrong? Sure. But I’m pretty comfortable that he knew more about it, and about what went into a Yes campaign, than those who saw some posters and ads.
Agreed.
Never said he wasn’t aware of the campaign but there’s a big difference between awareness/basic understanding/familiarity of what’s being done and the specific marketing spends and how they A/B compared to what was done for Yes. Very easy to have (for instance) an experience of “they didn’t do as much for me with magazine advertising as opposed to what they did with Yes” without truly knowing if that was in fact the case. Keep in mind that there’s a lot of back room dealmaking in play here and a break on a full color double page spread in exchange for an interview or backstage passes or a first look at the NEXT Yes record or who knows WHAT else for Yes might not be on the table for Squire (or any other solo band member) which means a bunch more money might need to be spent to get “the same” advertising look which means less marketing money to spend elsewhere. Now that type of dealmaking isn’t nearly as commonplace now but it was pretty standard back in the day.
Again, I’m not suggesting Squire was clueless but unless he knew exactly what strategy, numbers, spends and agreements were made around the marketing of the last Yes album and could compare contrast to his own solo album, all he can accurately state is how he experienced that marketing...which—in his telling to JK—wasn’t up to ‘Yes standards’. It’s not an unfair statement but what *IS* unfair is to then suggest that *HAD* Atlantic done the “the same” the result would have been an album as successful as the last Yes record. It just doesn’t work that way, it’s a distortion of facts and just because Squire described his experience to JK and JK has recounted it doesn’t make it an accurate truth. It’s just one artist’s perception of what he experienced at the time which has been followed by some speculation as to what *MIGHT* have happened if things were handled differently from a marketing perspective.
And once again, don’t discount the Brian Lane factor here. Of all the players involved, the one who stood to gain the most by a successful, cogent Yes without the politics and friction that one or more successful solo projects could cause, it’s Brian Lane. Managers have a LOT of sway with labels. To this very day.
Daily jazz vinyl reviews on Instagram @jazzandcoffee
Oh, take a couple days off....
First, of course it's Squire's EXPERIENCE, since you feel the need to scream it out. But HIS experience is, at least with my regular experience with musicians, is likely to be more accurate than yours, since he was in the inner sanctum, so to speak.
He may or may not have had access to the actual promo budget. Contrary to your view, most artists I know (admittedly contemporaneous so I cannot speak to 40+ years ago) actuallY DO know their label's budget for them. But I'll certainly acknowledge that Squire may not have had, as it was a different time and the music industry was very different.
But still, since he was in the inner sanctum, I'll take his experience over yours ... or mine ... any day of the week. We were the public, which definitely gave us some perspective. But I simply would not have the hubris to suggest that my 18 or 20 year-old (as I was) experience was more accurate than the guy who was working with the label.
Since this seems so hard for you to buy, then I think we should stop here. Nothing I say will change your mind, clearly; and, admittedly, the same goes in reverse.
So I think we've beaten this poor old horse to death, yes?
Cheers,
John
John Kelman
Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
Freelance writer/photographer
I succumbed to desire and ordered the big set.
The 5.1 version was too hard to resist.
I can always turn the vinyl into art work.
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