The Frustration of Discussing Prog Rock on the Message Boards

[aith01]

(Sometimes my best work is parenthetical.)

Best quote of the day, IMO.

[moecurlythanu]

Not gonna googla Count Roogna.

(although faint bells ringeth, lol...on 2nd thought might hafta. LOL!

Wasn't the Xanth series by Piers Anthony? I had intended to read those, but never got around to it.

[Crawford Glissadevil]

Mention you like an album or artist and give a brief reason why. You liked it and excitedly want to share that info. Maybe you didn't like it and want to share that. In no time at all, the same know-it-alls will pop on and start talking over your head:

"I disagree. This is more like the band Plink-Plonk rather than Plonk-Plink. Not to mention Arfcluuder Hkfruw, Yoq and the Uddersoo Zither Collective's third album, "Errrrrrrk!". Clearly you don't know the difference between music in G-minor clusterfarm drone and garbage."

I pretty much remove myself from the conversation at that point or just say, "I don't care".

Would make a great Masters Psychology Thesis. Why must we define genre? What does it say about the way our brains are wired? What need are we fulfilling? Why didn't Mommy love me?

[Top Cat]

One thing bothers me about a post like this, and it's when the OP starts a thread like this and doesn't become involved in the conversation.
I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this, but I would like to read YOURS.
It's not like you've been gone for 3 days and couldn't post, because I've seen you posting on other threads.

Kind of lost respect for you on this one, especially since you were calling out people on this forum.

[Steve983]

I've pretty much had it with music forums really. Everything's been said, they are so annoying I just visit this one and a couple of others just to pick up news etc. Apart from that its pretty much a waste of my time.

[Zaragon]

Would make a great Masters Phycology Thesis. Why must we define genre? What does it say about the way our brains are wired? What need are we fulfilling?

About nine years ago, I did away with genres in my musical filing system and grouped everything in a continent>nation>alphabet hierarchy. The move reflected my growing disillusionment with genre labels, which — conveniences aside — mostly seem to arouse people's tribalistic instincts. Moreover, labeling — more specifically, reductive sub-labeling — encourages the crash-course generalism of musical laymen.

When genre sub-labels are pitted at positive and negative ends of some laymen's musical ideology (ChriBa), labels become prisms through which certain releases are rubber-stamped and others are automatically bottom-rated, all with little actual listening experience of — or, more importantly, a developed and objective listening framework for — the music in question.

To avoid such problems, I limit the use of labels in writing to the broadest, high-meta categories — rock, soul, jazz, classical, folk. Overall, music of the last 60 years has represented one of three approaches — an exercise in one of the five basic categories (foundationalism), an expansion of two or more in combination (maximalism), or a deconstruction of one or more (minimalism).

"Prog," as it is generally understood in these parts, was/is the nexus of maximalism because it hybridized the five basic musical categories into one expanded whole. As such, a "prog" epic could be viewed as a catalog of musical styles that contrast and coalesce through different sections in the form of a suite. For example, "Supper's Ready" travels through folk ("Lover's Leap"), hard rock ("Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men"), music hall ("Willow Farm"), and an odd-meter martial section ("Apocalypse in 9/8") within its 22-plus minutes. If fans of the Genesis suite enjoy each of those styles within that multi-sectional context, these same listeners should have an ear for artists that explore each of those styles more exclusively.

In passing, a mixed playlist of songs from a variety of '70s artists — Sonny Fortune followed by Brian Protheroe followed by Zanov followed by Cheryl Dilcher followed by Birth Control followed by Hermeto Pascoal, etc. — can have much the same cross-idiomatic impression as any lengthy prog epic.

But what irritates me, for no known reason, are the completist posts. Someone says to list the best record in a genre and then someone else gives a list half a page long of virtually every band in that genre, which in a sense ends the post, since that person shuts down the fun of discovery as people list the ONE record they like.

For the reasons outlined above, I never post whole lists of albums/bands-by-genre in threads of that nature. Instead, I mention the one or two titles/artists that come to mind and link the sentence to one of my RYM national directories.

Until recently, I tacitly encouraged my page viewers to take everything in with curiosity and make educated guesses as to which titles fit certain musical categories. Alas, RYM recently added genres and descriptors to all user lists. While this somewhat compromises the purpose of my directories — my preferred term for my RYM lists, since they are rather thorough and link to the album and artist pages; the word "list" feels too elementary for my comfort — I imagine some people will find it more useful.

[Crawford Glissadevil]

About nine years ago, I did away with genres in my musical filing system and grouped everything in a continent>nation>alphabet hierarchy. The move reflected my growing disillusionment with genre labels, which — conveniences aside — mostly seem to arouse people's tribalistic instincts. Moreover, labeling — more specifically, reductive sub-labeling — encourages the crash-course generalism of musical laymen.

When genre sub-labels are pitted at positive and negative ends of some laymen's musical ideology (ChriBa), labels become prisms through which certain releases are rubber-stamped and others are automatically bottom-rated, all with little actual listening experience of — or, more importantly, a developed and objective listening framework for — the music in question.

To avoid such problems, I limit the use of labels in writing to the broadest, high-meta categories — rock, soul, jazz, classical, folk. Overall, music of the last 60 years has represented one of three approaches — an exercise in one of the five basic categories (foundationalism), an expansion of two or more in combination (maximalism), or a deconstruction of one or more (minimalism).

"Prog," as it is generally understood in these parts, was/is the nexus of maximalism because it hybridized the five basic musical categories into one expanded whole. As such, a "prog" epic could be viewed as a catalog of musical styles that contrast and coalesce through different sections in the form of a suite. For example, "Supper's Ready" travels through folk ("Lover's Leap"), hard rock ("Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men"), music hall ("Willow Farm"), and an odd-meter martial section ("Apocalypse in 9/8") within its 22-plus minutes. If fans of the Genesis suite enjoy each of those styles within that multi-sectional context, these same listeners should have an ear for artists that explore each of those styles more exclusively.

In passing, a mixed playlist of songs from a variety of '70s artists — Sonny Fortune followed by Brian Protheroe followed by Zanov followed by Cheryl Dilcher followed by Birth Control followed by Hermeto Pascoal, etc. — can have much the same cross-idiomatic impression as any lengthy prog epic.



For the reasons outlined above, I never post whole lists of albums/bands-by-genre in threads of that nature. Instead, I mention the one or two titles/artists that come to mind and link the sentence to one of my RYM national directories.

Until recently, I tacitly encouraged my page viewers to take everything in with curiosity and make educated guesses as to which titles fit certain musical categories. Alas, RYM recently added genres and descriptors to all user lists. While this somewhat compromises the purpose of my directories — my preferred term for my RYM lists, since they are rather thorough and link to the album and artist pages; the word "list" feels too elementary for my comfort — I imagine some people will find it more useful.

What a trip dude. I organize my collection similarly. 1. Nation 2. Year

I frequently listen to an entire year for a weekend.

[Zaragon]

I frequently listen to an entire year for a weekend.

Same here. For each year of TriMax (1969–84), I've made m3u playlists that contain every album on my discogs top 10%–12% shortlists, which are linked to their corresponding years in my RYM directories. I've even made ultimate lists of all the rubies and some of the sapphires from every album on my 1976/77 mega-directories. I play each of these lists on random shuffle for several days at a time.

[Vic2012]

My CDs are filed haphazardly. They're in boxes but they're all over the place. It's gotten to the point where if I want to hear a CD I haven't heard in years, I'll listen to it on Youtube rather than go searching for it in my collection.....

[Zeuhlmate]

Alphabetically - which can at times be a bit irritating when I cant remember the name of a band I want to hear.

[mozo-pg]

My CDs are filed haphazardly. They're in boxes but they're all over the place. It's gotten to the point where if I want to hear a CD I haven't heard in years, I'll listen to it on Youtube rather than go searching for it in my collection.....

This.

[JKL2000]

About nine years ago, I did away with genres in my musical filing system and grouped everything in a continent>nation>alphabet hierarchy.

Where would you file a self-released album by a band with musicians from multiple continents/nations?

[JKL2000]

Wasn't the Xanth series by Piers Anthony? I had intended to read those, but never got around to it.

Yep, I read several of them back in the 80s, but he wrote too many to keep up, and they got a bit too silly. Castle Roogna was one of the best though!

[Jerjo]

I go alpha for anything under the broad umbrella of rock. The classical, jazz, blues, and ambient are all on a single Boltz rack, grouped by genre.

[aith01]

I've pretty much had it with music forums really. Everything's been said, they are so annoying I just visit this one and a couple of others just to pick up news etc. Apart from that its pretty much a waste of my time.

And yet you still return to post stuff like this.

[mozo-pg]

And yet you still return to post stuff like this.

...and post repeated all over the board.

[Zaragon]

Where would you file a self-released album by a band with musicians from multiple continents/nations?

The nation in which the project is based, with the solo works of individual members filed under their own respective nations. For example, I have Mahavishnu Orchestra filed in the states; Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, and Narada Michael Walden filed in the states; John McLaughlin filed in England; Jan Hammer filed in Czechoslovakia; Jean-Luc Ponty filed in France; and Rick Laird filed in Ireland.

[DocProgger]

I don't organize my records alphabetically or chronologically. I do it autobiographically.

I can tell ya how I got from Deep Purple to Howlin' Wolf in just 25 moves. And, if I want to find the song "Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac, I have to remember that I bought it for someone in the Fall of 1983 pile - but, didn't give it to them for personal reasons. I find this system....comforting.

And yes, I have a whole pile of "sad old bastard music"

[JKL2000]

The nation in which the project is based, with the solo works of individual members filed under their own respective nations. For example, I have Mahavishnu Orchestra filed in the states; Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, and Narada Michael Walden filed in the states; John McLaughlin filed in England; Jan Hammer filed in Czechoslovakia; Jean-Luc Ponty filed in France; and Rick Laird filed in Ireland.

Like I said, what if it's a multinational band that recorded the whole thing across the internet? Or, not that you have any, let's say a live Transatlantic album. Musicians from Sweden, the US, the UK, no real leader. Just as an example.

[notallwhowander]

And yes, I have a whole pile of "sad old bastard music"

I see, lots of Leonard Cohen.

[Crawford Glissadevil]

This.

You're hilarious mozo-pg. If they ever do a Prog TV miniseries then they need to mold a character after you. lol

[Crawford Glissadevil]

I don't organize my records alphabetically or chronologically. I do it autobiographically.

I can tell ya how I got from Deep Purple to Howlin' Wolf in just 25 moves. And, if I want to find the song "Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac, I have to remember that I bought it for someone in the Fall of 1983 pile - but, didn't give it to them for personal reasons. I find this system....comforting.

And yes, I have a whole pile of "sad old bastard music"

Must be fun to hang with you and your collection! Right on!

[Zaragon]

Like I said, what if it's a multinational band that recorded the whole thing across the internet? Or, not that you have any, let's say a live Transatlantic album. Musicians from Sweden, the US, the UK, no real leader. Just as an example.

I suppose I'd file the title in the nation of the project's main composer. If there are several composers, one of who's the front-person, I'd chose the nation of that individual. If the project involves a slew of composers and vocalists from different nations, I might choose the nation of the producer.

[JKL2000]

I suppose I'd file the title in the nation of the project's main composer. If there are several composers, one of who's the front-person, I'd chose the nation of that individual. If the project involves a slew of composers and vocalists from different nations, I might choose the nation of the producer.

What if it was produced by the entire band?

Ok, I was just curious, whatever works for you!

[3LockBox]

Whenever I read stuff I don't like, I just unread it.