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Thread: The Vinyl Thread

  1. #126
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    It might not be as loud as the CD, but that reissue - like all of the recent BN reissues - are sourced from digital. They're just CDs on wax.

    True, but two masters; one for vinyl and one for CDs. Two different jobs.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  2. #127
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    This is for you, Rob...


  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    This is not true, for several quantifiable reasons.

    1. Vinyl LPs at 45 RPM sound better than 33 RPM for the exact same reasons that 30ips sound better than 15 ips. Information recorded over longer distance, resolution increases..
    Also the reason why, back in the VCR days, when you recorded stuff off TV at higher speeds (e.g. SP on VHS, versus LP or SLP), you get better picture and audio fidelity.

    it isn't going to stop me from listening to Thin Lizzy's Jailbreak just because it sounds like it was recorded in a bathroom.
    Depending on the acoustic properties of the bathroom, you could actually get a good drum or guitar sound in there. Weren't there stories of people like Jimmy Page recording guitar parts with his amps in the bathroom across the corridor from the studio?

    All seriousness aside, I read an interview with Scott Gorham in the 90's, where he was talking about how much better the records Tony Visconti produced for Thin Lizzy, versus their earlier records. He said that compared to Bad Reputation (the first one Visconti worked on), Jailbreak sounded like it was recorded in a shoebox, in the 1920's!

    But I never thought it sounded all that bad.
    Some colored vinyls -- thinking here of Dave Mason's marbled "Alone Together" -- were universally decried as terribly noisy pressings, due to impurities in the vinyl. Black vinyl compounds have some plasticizers in them which are supposed to reduce noise, something clear and green and yellow and blue records do not.
    Now, I thought I read once that clear vinyl had to be made from pure vinyl because any impurities in the material would show up in the form of visible yellow streaks or whatever. By contrast, there could any number of impurities in black vinyl because it could be hidden easier. How that affects the quality, I'm not sure though.

    In the Grateful Dead Movie, there's a bit where Betty Cantor talks about how she had been going down to the pressing plants for the preceding couple Dead albums (this was October 74, so presumably she's talking about Wake Of The Flood and From The Mars Hotel, the first two Grateful Dead Records releases) to make sure the pressings were high quality, etc. In one of the Dead books I have, she elaborates on that a bit, but I can't remember the details.

    I never noticed that much difference myself. Most picture discs (like Curved Air's "Air Conditioning") were printed cardboard graphics sandwiched between two clear vinyl sides. They never sounded very good -- but they were meant to be framed and displayed, not played.
    The dumbass 10 year old me actually bought and even regularly played, a picture disc copy of The Who's Who Are You. I remember there was a disclaimer on the back cover admitting that the audio quality was lower than a standard LP pressing. I don't remember if I actually noticed that before I bought the record, but at the time, I thoguht picture discs were just too damn cool for words. I forget what I paid for it.

    I also have a star shaped Police single, Don't Stand So Close To Me, b/w De Doo Doo Doo, De Dah Dah Dah.

    And then there's the purple vinyl ELO Sweet Talkin' Woman/Fire On High single. I listened to all of them a lot.

    I didn't know you weren't supposed to actually listen to those things.

    I wonder what they'd be worth now if I hadn't played them.

  4. #129
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Depending on the acoustic properties of the bathroom, you could actually get a good drum or guitar sound in there. Weren't there stories of people like Jimmy Page recording guitar parts with his amps in the bathroom across the corridor from the studio?[/i]
    Jon Anderson is said to have had a mock-up tiled "bathroom" built for the studio when recording Tales, because he wanted that natural reverb. Apparently it didn't work; you need actual walls behind it, not just the reflective surface.

    Now, I thought I read once that clear vinyl had to be made from pure vinyl because any impurities in the material would show up in the form of visible yellow streaks or whatever. By contrast, there could any number of impurities in black vinyl because it could be hidden easier. How that affects the quality, I'm not sure though.
    Upwards of 90% of what you read about colored vs. black vinyl, including some statements made in this thread, is nonsense. At the end of the day, you can't generalize, because practices and formulations vary widely from case to case, and there are many more important issues at play than if the pigment used in the vinyl happens to be carbon black or not--including your point that black vinyl conveniently camouflages impurities, including the use of recycled vinyl.

  5. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    Jon Anderson is said to have had a mock-up tiled "bathroom" built for the studio when recording Tales, because he wanted that natural reverb. Apparently it didn't work; you need actual walls behind it, not just the reflective surface.
    I remember hearing that story. I believe he and Ed Schiaky talked about it on one of Jon's visits to Ed's radio show. I think Ed said he actually visited the band in England, during those sessions, and the day he walked into the studio, that's actually what they were doing, building this vocal booth made of tiles around Jon. He'd have probably been better off just going into the bathroom and recording there.

    Speaking of such things, I also remember hearing a story, I think it was about the song Liar by Three Dog Night. They got the vocal sound on the first verse of that song by going in the men's room, having whichever singer (Chuck Negron?) lean over the toilet, with the mic in the bowl itself.

    Then you have Deep Purple actually renting out the Montreux Casino, to record the follow up to Fireball. Of course, as well all know, they never actually got a chance to record anything there.

    I imagine all of these things, there's like presets on every digital reverb ever made that emulates all of them.

    But ya know, all the talk you hear of acoustically "live" rooms being important for recording rock music or whatever, I've also ehard a lot of people say the best guitar tones can be had in a dead room. I read an interview with Billy Zoom, the original guitarist from the LA punk band X, and he said he was always frustrated about trying to get a decent guitar tone in the studio. Then an engineer they were working with him told him that he went to a Van Halen session once, where they put Eddie's amp in the deadest part of the room. Billy said he tried that and boom, suddenly he had the guitar tone he was looking for.

  6. #131
    Jim Morrison sang his vocal for "Love Her Madly" in a bathroom. And, no, he wasn't drunk and laying on the floor.
    The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone.

  7. #132
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Because everyone THINKS they sound better in the shower than they actually do.
    Singing is a lot like multitasking; most are not as good at it as they think they are.

  8. #133
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    New - Frank Zappa ~ One Size Fits All remastered vinyl $25
    - sounds absolutely amazing; thick, quiet, deep & rich . One of FZs better productions from that era.

    Used - Miroslav Vitous - Mountain in the Clouds - near mint $6
    post Miles free-ish modal/spiritual

    what a lineup: John McLaughlin, Joe Henderson, Herbie Hancock, Jack Dejohnette, Joe Chambers
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  9. #134
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    New - Blodwyn Pig ~ Ahead Rings Out reissue vinyl $23 from 1/4 inch master tape https://www.pledgemusic.com/projects/blodwyn-pig
    - sounds glorious, fat & wide

    Used - David Sancious & Tone ~ True Stories $5
    -
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  10. #135
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    New - Blodwyn Pig ~ Ahead Rings Out reissue vinyl $23 from 1/4 inch master tape https://www.pledgemusic.com/projects/blodwyn-pig
    - sounds glorious, fat & wide
    UK running order (04/69) or the US running order (08/69)? It says "Transferred from the original 1974 ¼” production master" which doesn't really help.

    UK release (pink cover):
    1. It's Only Love
    2. Dear Jill
    3. Sing Me A Song That I Know
    4. The Modern Alchemist
    5. Up and Coming
    6. Leave It With Me
    7. Change Song
    8. Backwash
    9. Ain't Ya Coming Home, Babe?

    US release (red & yellow target cover):
    1. It's Only Love
    2. Dear Jill
    3. Walk on the Water
    4. The Modern Alchemist
    5. See My Way
    6. Summer Day
    7. Change Song
    8. Backwash
    9. Ain't Ya Coming Home, Babe?

  11. #136
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    It says "Transferred from the original 1974 ¼” production master" which doesn't really help.
    Especially since it raises the question of what's "original" about a 1974 master for an album released in 1969.

  12. #137
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Did you guys here this thing?

    Its this one : UK release (pink cover):

    It's Only Love
    Dear Jill
    Sing Me A Song That I Know
    The Modern Alchemist
    Up and Coming
    Leave It With Me
    Change Song
    Backwash
    Ain't Ya Coming Home, Babe?
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  13. #138
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Here are a few posts from Reddit:

    <The only thing better than cd is 24bit files, provided that it was recorded at 24 bit (and pretty much everything these days is). CDs are still nice as a tangible object. Vinyl is nice for aesthetic, but as a listening medium, it's pretty far removed from the source (the additional cutting stage, they wear out, RIAA eq curve going in and coming out, preamp considerations, dynamic limitations, etc).>

    <<Isn't vinyl technically lossless? I've always heard that a CD can't be better than vinyl>>

    <<<Depends....analog tape to vinyl is as close as you get without an A/D conversion involved. For anything digitally recorded, vinyl has to go through a D/A stage, plus the RIAA eq curve to the vinyl, and the reverse curve back from the turntable or preamp. Vinyl is great, but it is not close to total accuracy for digital source recordings....it is very far from it. I'm a recording engineer, and I'm amazed at how mis-informed people are about formats and media.>>>

    Do you think this recording engineer is correct? And what's the RIAA eq curve in and out that he's talking about?

  14. #139
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    The LP reissue of Univers Zero ~ Ceux Du Dehors sounds amazing.

    Night and day to the CD for my ears.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  15. #140
    If you are into late 20th century and contemporary classical music, look for vinyl on the Nonesuch label. Specifically the recordings with covers that look similar to this:






    They are universally great recordings. Especially with regards to imaging and soundstage. On my system, they create an incredible 3d image, and a deep and wide soundstage. I can virtually "see" the musicians, in the original space the recording was done in.

    And considering they were originally released as a budget label, recorded on all that 'inferior' equipment of the 70's, they are a real condemnation of modern recording methods.

    Despite the superiority of hi rez digital recordings in most aspects, I still believe that vinyl is better able to create a lifelike soundstage and image.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Used - Miroslav Vitous - Mountain in the Clouds - near mint $6
    post Miles free-ish modal/spiritual

    what a lineup: John McLaughlin, Joe Henderson, Herbie Hancock, Jack Dejohnette, Joe Chambers
    You have to be careful with Mountain in the Clouds. It’s a reissue of Infinite Search, and some editions are abridged.
    Confirmed Bachelors: the dramedy hit of 1883...

  17. #142
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    And what's the RIAA eq curve in and out that he's talking about?
    I'm not sure, but he might've been referring to the way the RIAA Curve changed and evolved over the years, as home audio technology improved and evolved. In the early to mid 1950s, "Hi-Fi" equipment wasn't capable of reproducing sound over 15KHz, so the RIAA curve maxed out at 15KHz. It would've been pointless for an engineer to worry about any frequency above that. By the late 1950s when stereo records came on the scene, equipment was able to reproduce up to around 18KHz. The RIAA curve changed to reflect that. If you were to play a record made in, say, 1956 on modern equipment, it would sound like it was playing through a tin can. However, if you play it on vintage equipment made around 1956, the record would sound great.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  18. #143
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Good article that I'm in agreement with!

    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/...s-the-message/
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  19. #144
    The article mentions nothing about using the double-album cover to clean the seeds from your weed. WTF???
    The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone.

  20. #145
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    It seems ironic that vinyl is making a comeback, while CDs are going the way of the dodo.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  21. #146
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    That article reads like some ayatollah preaching to ISIS and Al-Qaeda enthusiasts.


    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    It seems ironic that vinyl is making a comeback, while CDs are going the way of the dodo.
    Just look how forcing a (useless) vinyl sale can hurt sales

    http://www.progressiveears.org/forum...hlight=aerosol


    BTW, I bought two vinyls this year, but feel mostly cheated because they included CD version in them, but they wouldn't sell CD-only, those little French twirps. (I probably would've passed if there wasn't the CD versions)

    Here is one example of how you inflate ugly petrol-derived slices sales to make believe in a mirage.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  22. #147
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ Or you could just be wrong. Again.
    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

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  23. #148
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    cry me a river
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  24. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    That article reads like some ayatollah preaching to ISIS and Al-Qaeda enthusiasts.
    Do you have a better explanation for why vinyl is making a comeback?

  25. #150
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Do you have a better explanation for why vinyl is making a comeback?
    That one should suffice...

    I'm not denying there are more vinyl sales than 10 years ago... You'd have to be blind to contest that

    But there is a constant hype about the sales and the medium itself (you see hipster movie makers going out of their way to feature a vinyl collection in their latest movie in filming a living room (probably even inventing the scene or adapting the scenario or script), just to be able to show that vinyl trend)... It's quite obvious to my eyes and ears, anyways.

    I even have a personal story how this is done by the press itself: two years ago, on the day that it was decided that the main downtown boulevard of Brussels was going pedestrian-onmly, there was a journalist that was interviewing downtown customers and shop owners... I had just bought three CDs at Caroline Music and the dude insisted in taking of picture of me holding my errants (three CDs).... He had to convince me a fair bit, because I was reluctant to have my picture in some newspaper (national distribution too), but I finally let him do so. Next day, I open the newspaper and on page 3,the journalist speaks about me (mentionning my name) and my pedestrian street reactions (quoting me relatively faithfully, i'll give him that) but he wrote that I bought three vinyls.... Of course, the picture he had insisted so much on taking) showing the opposite of his satement was not present, for obvious reasons.

    The little things like this one show how everything is done to hype the vinyl craze, including twisting and bending the facts.

    And I think that this comeback is much exagerated and probably even the sales numbers are slanted >> that VdGG boxset will count for one vinyl sale, while I'm not sure the CDs inside the same boxset will count for one CD sale ... or FTM even two CD sold, since there are two of them inside.

    I could even see the industry cheating in saying that in case of a 20-disc Crimson boxset, the two vinyls included will count for two vinyl sales, but the 17 CDs will count for one CD sale.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

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