AAJ Review: King Crimson, Live in Vienna 2016, December 1, 2016 (UK Edition)

[Nijinsky Hind]

Well now...now that that's been dispensed with, anyone wanna talk about Crimson? Honestly, y'all can disagree with me even!

I'd honestly like to know if you can tell us whats different about this release in comparison to the Chicago and R.A. Setlist surprises? etc? And your opinion is valid for sure, but I feel the vocals on previous releases lack a certain grit and force. Good singer to be sure though. Certainly no big deal complaints here.

[jkelman]

I'd honestly like to know if you can tell us whats different about this release in comparison to the Chicago and R.A. Setlist surprises? etc? And your opinion is valid for sure, but I feel the vocals on previous releases lack a certain grit and force. Good singer to be sure though. Certainly no big deal complaints here.

Well, the setlist order, as I've written, really gives the show a different flow (my example of "Dawn Song" to "Suitable Grounds for the Blues," for one example, was a back-to-back I didn't think would work as well as it does). Beyond that, I've not listened intently to Toronto or Chicago (when you listen to the album under review 8-10 times it leaves little room), but my impressions are: this earlier version of "Indiscipline" has more energy, especially in the slightly extended drum solo trade-off intro, than Chicago, hotbas that one is. This is one of my favourite "Easy Money"s, as I think the solo section's build is different than othervrecorded versions. Fripp's "Sailor's Tale" solo is noteworthy, as is his instrumental intro to "Peace." And the relatively seamless move from "fairy Dust" to "Peace" to "Cirkus" (not as massive as the 8-piece, but still a potent version with Collins on particularly good form) really works.

Beyond that, this show is, overall, a particularly good night for Levin...his interpretive playing throughout the set, as I wrote, sticking to scripts where essential but more often taking liberties, is really special. And last, this being a multi-track mix rather than soundboard creates better clarity, different soundstage and a different kind of energy to Chicago and is, IMO, a better multi-track mix than Vienna. They do keep getting better st what they do, whether it's in performance or making great live documents, IMO.

Dunno if this helps, in addition to the review, but it's the best I can give you.
Cheers,
J

[Spiral]

As far as it not being a "natural talent"? Well, to each their own, but you must, I am sure, realize, that this is an opinion and not some kind of hard fact. I think, also, that what touring with Crimson has done, over the past four years (really, this is the fifth) is that he's improved significantly as a vocalist in that time. ...

folks may not find his voice one that stands out particularly for them, and that's totally fine ... But from a purely technical perspective, I'll challenge anyone as to whether he's a good (i.e. skilled, capable) singer, and defend him on that front without hesitation. Using actual measurements that relate to skill, he ticks off pretty much all of the boxes.

Agreed on all counts, and that's really all I was getting at. There's something naturally special the likes of Lake and Wetton seemed to have beyond their technical ability, imperfect as that could be--I probably can't explain it any better than that. It takes nothing away from anyone else.

For me the vocals and the lyrics are my nagging reservation about this version of the group. Not because I have a problem with the way JJ delivers the songs, which I generally think is good, but the very style of vocal delivery that these songs have always had and really demand feels dated, frozen in time in the early seventies. Likewise most of the lyrics have not aged well. The music on the other hand feels timeless.

Well said. I've generally thought the same thing, though my reservation is about the words themselves and not so much the delivery. Some of them are absolutely cringe-worthy. I'd probably still be more excited about this Crimson if their back-catalogue choices were the instrumental ones, though still not as excited as I'd be if they went for a purely double-trio-and-newer set. (Pure fantasy, obviously, but a fellow can dream.)

[jkelman]

Well said. I've generally thought the same thing, though my reservation is about the words themselves and not so much the delivery. Some of them are absolutely cringe-worthy. I'd probably still be more excited about this Crimson if their back-catalogue choices were the instrumental ones, though still not as excited as I'd be if they went for a purely double-trio-and-newer set. (Pure fantasy, obviously, but a fellow can dream.)

I understand...but a question: are you and Mascodagama younger folks who weren't around when the early Crimson albums were first released and (in some cases) toured?

Reason I ask is: if you are younger, and weren't around at the time, I can see how especially Sinfield's words might be cringe-worthy. But if you're like me and have been there from the start? Well, the lyrics, in many cases, are indeed not the greatest (I'd not go so far as to say cringe-worthy), but for me they remain an integral part of the songs...I can't imagine them any other way. And so, while I don't sit in my seat, bobbing to 21CSM and singing the words, I don't find them at all a bother...as long as they're sung well (which they are, as I've already been clear is my view). There are some that remain actually good to me (even Sinfield): specifically, Moonchild (ok, a little hippie-ish, but I was one!); much of Lizard, as they're more oblique ("Happy Family," "Indoor Games") or part of the narrative ("Dawn Song"), or the sentiment is still a nice one ("Islands"), it's a story ("The Letters") or evocation of a time and place ("Formantera Lady").

Sinfield's more flowery lyrics ("Epitaph," "CotCK," "Cadence and Cascade," "ITWoP") never worked for me, nor did his attempt at being more grounded and topical ("Cat Food," "Ladies of the Road," and the same goes for Palmer-James on "Easy Money")....

...but, nevertheless, they remain somehow integral to what the songs are, and so while they're far from my favourite lyrics in the world of music, I just cannot think of those songs any other way than with them.

Don't know if this makes sense. But I am curious if you two were late comers to the early Crimson, because if you are, it kinda makes sense to me. Believe me, listening to real wordsmiths like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Robert Hunter, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, Lyle Lovett, Joni Mitchell, Rickie Lee Jones, Suzanne Vega, Shawn Colvin, Rosanne Cash, Rodney Crowell and Emmylou Harris, to name just a few, render many of Crimson's lyrics less enticing, especially some of the early tunes. But still, if Jakko were to write contemporary lyrics to him (and I do like his lyrics), it'd be somehow wrong. Ya can't have "ITCotCK" without Sinfield's lyrics, overly flowery though they may be.

Anyway, as ever, dunno if this makes sense. One thing is also certain: few progressive rock bands excel at lyrics. There are a few, for sure, but the percentage is pretty low, IMO, compared to good/intelligent/non-fluff pop music (Neil Finn, The Beatles, David Bowie, Steely Dan/Donald Fagen, for example...even the Beach Boys at times), or rock bands like The Band, The Kinks, Grateful Dead, Los Lobos, Lou Reed, etc. And, of course, those for whom lyrics are as important if not more so than the music itself (Dylan, Cohen)? Well, it's taken me time to warm to the music (and singing), but the lyrics are so compelling that, later in life, it's begun to happen in a big way.

But for me, Crimson isn't Crimson without the lyrics - good, bad or somewhere in the middle as they can be.
Cheers!
John

[lak611]

I understand...but a question: are you and Mascodagama younger folks who weren't around when the early Crimson albums were first released and (in some cases) toured?

Reason I ask is: if you are younger, and weren't around at the time, I can see how especially Sinfield's words might be cringe-worthy. But if you're like me and have been there from the start? Well, the lyrics, in many cases, are indeed not the greatest (I'd not go so far as to say cringe-worthy), but for me they remain an integral part of the songs...I can't imagine them any other way. And so, while I don't sit in my seat, bobbing to 21CSM and singing the words, I don't find them at all a bother...as long as they're sung well (which they are, as I've already been clear is my view). There are some that remain actually good to me (even Sinfield): specifically, Moonchild (ok, a little hippie-ish, but I was one!); much of Lizard, as they're more oblique ("Happy Family," "Indoor Games") or part of the narrative ("Dawn Song"), or the sentiment is still a nice one ("Islands"), it's a story ("The Letters") or evocation of a time and place ("Formantera Lady").

Sinfield's more flowery lyrics ("Epitaph," "CotCK," "Cadence and Cascade," "ITWoP") never worked for me, nor did his attempt at being more grounded and topical ("Cat Food," "Ladies of the Road," and the same goes for Palmer-James on "Easy Money")....

...but, nevertheless, they remain somehow integral to what the songs are, and so while they're far from my favourite lyrics in the world of music, I just cannot think of those songs any other way than with them.

Don't know if this makes sense. But I am curious if you two were late comers to the early Crimson, because if you are, it kinda makes sense to me. Believe me, listening to real wordsmiths like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Robert Hunter, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, Lyle Lovett, Joni Mitchell, Rickie Lee Jones, Suzanne Vega, Shawn Colvin, Rosanne Cash, Rodney Crowell and Emmylou Harris, to name just a few, render many of Crimson's lyrics less enticing, especially some of the early tunes. But still, if Jakko were to write contemporary lyrics to him (and I do like his lyrics), it'd be somehow wrong. Ya can't have "ITCotCK" without Sinfield's lyrics, overly flowery though they may be.

Anyway, as ever, dunno if this makes sense. One thing is also certain: few progressive rock bands excel at lyrics. There are a few, for sure, but the percentage is pretty low, IMO, compared to good/intelligent/non-fluff pop music (Neil Finn, The Beatles, David Bowie, Steely Dan/Donald Fagen, for example...even the Beach Boys at times), or rock bands like The Band, The Kinks, Grateful Dead, Los Lobos, Lou Reed, etc. And, of course, those for whom lyrics are as important if not more so than the music itself (Dylan, Cohen)? Well, it's taken me time to warm to the music (and singing), but the lyrics are so compelling that, later in life, it's begun to happen in a big way.

But for me, Crimson isn't Crimson without the lyrics - good, bad or somewhere in the middle as they can be.
Cheers!
John

Stop generalising and stereotyping. I was 11 months old when "In the Wake of Poseidon" was released, yet I have no issues with Sinfield's lyrics, especially those on "Cat Food". What does age have to do with anything?

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Mascodagama]

Stop generalising and stereotyping. I was 11 months old when "In the Wake of Poseidon" was released, yet I have no issues with Sinfield's lyrics, especially those on "Cat Food". What does age have to do with anything?

I feel that is a rather unfair response to John's quite thoughtful post. It seems clear to me that he isn't saying younger people can’t appreciate the Sinfield / Palmer-James lyrics, simply that if you are one of those who doesn't think much of them, it may be rather easier to reconcile oneself to them if you absorbed the songs as part of the zeitgeist at the time. Not really an outrageous thesis.

[Mascodagama]

I understand...but a question: are you and Mascodagama younger folks who weren't around when the early Crimson albums were first released and (in some cases) toured?

Yeah, I was born at the end of 1968. When Red came out my record collection was limited to a 7” of Puff The Magic Dragon.

Reason I ask is: if you are younger, and weren't around at the time, I can see how especially Sinfield's words might be cringe-worthy. But if you're like me and have been there from the start? Well, the lyrics, in many cases, are indeed not the greatest (I'd not go so far as to say cringe-worthy), but for me they remain an integral part of the songs...I can't imagine them any other way. And so, while I don't sit in my seat, bobbing to 21CSM and singing the words, I don't find them at all a bother...as long as they're sung well (which they are, as I've already been clear is my view). There are some that remain actually good to me (even Sinfield): specifically, Moonchild (ok, a little hippie-ish, but I was one!); much of Lizard, as they're more oblique ("Happy Family," "Indoor Games") or part of the narrative ("Dawn Song"), or the sentiment is still a nice one ("Islands"), it's a story ("The Letters") or evocation of a time and place ("Formantera Lady").

Sinfield's more flowery lyrics ("Epitaph," "CotCK," "Cadence and Cascade," "ITWoP") never worked for me, nor did his attempt at being more grounded and topical ("Cat Food," "Ladies of the Road," and the same goes for Palmer-James on "Easy Money")....

...but, nevertheless, they remain somehow integral to what the songs are, and so while they're far from my favourite lyrics in the world of music, I just cannot think of those songs any other way than with them.

Don't know if this makes sense. But I am curious if you two were late comers to the early Crimson, because if you are, it kinda makes sense to me. Believe me, listening to real wordsmiths like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Robert Hunter, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, Lyle Lovett, Joni Mitchell, Rickie Lee Jones, Suzanne Vega, Shawn Colvin, Rosanne Cash, Rodney Crowell and Emmylou Harris, to name just a few, render many of Crimson's lyrics less enticing, especially some of the early tunes. But still, if Jakko were to write contemporary lyrics to him (and I do like his lyrics), it'd be somehow wrong. Ya can't have "ITCotCK" without Sinfield's lyrics, overly flowery though they may be.

Anyway, as ever, dunno if this makes sense. One thing is also certain: few progressive rock bands excel at lyrics. There are a few, for sure, but the percentage is pretty low, IMO, compared to good/intelligent/non-fluff pop music (Neil Finn, The Beatles, David Bowie, Steely Dan/Donald Fagen, for example...even the Beach Boys at times), or rock bands like The Band, The Kinks, Grateful Dead, Los Lobos, Lou Reed, etc. And, of course, those for whom lyrics are as important if not more so than the music itself (Dylan, Cohen)? Well, it's taken me time to warm to the music (and singing), but the lyrics are so compelling that, later in life, it's begun to happen in a big way.

But for me, Crimson isn't Crimson without the lyrics - good, bad or somewhere in the middle as they can be.
Cheers!
John

I can't say if I'd feel differently if I'd been there at the time, of course, but I doubt it. I've always had a problem with bad lyrics - and as you note, prog has more than its fair share - e.g. the awful tripe that makes up most of Jon Anderson's output. For me this has been the same for music coming out when I have been part of the zeitgeist too - e.g. coming up as a teenager in the eighties me and my friends got into thrash metal, but my enjoyment of bands like Slayer was always a little marred by their peurile lyrics - and bands such as Metallica and Suicidal Tendencies who had better lyricists got my more whole-hearted devotion. Okay, James Hetfield will never be mistaken for Leonard Cohen or Donald Fagen, but circa RtL and MoP he had things to say that were coherent, fairly well expressed, and appealing to teenage me. Similarly it was VdGG that I thought of as “my” prog band, specifically because the brilliance of the music and the lyrics was all of a piece.

The bottom line was (and still is) that if the music is good enough I'm going to learn to live with the lyrical shortcomings - no way would I miss out on the awesomemess that is ItCotCK, CttE or for that matter Reign In Blood just because of some words - but dissatisfaction with the words remains a factor, even if one can manage to more or less ignore them.

In the case of KC I actually find it easier to live with the words when listening to the studio albums and contemporary live recordings, inasmuch as some of the issues with the Sinfield and Palmer-James lyrics can be put down to being a product of their time. When those words are being sung at me by JJ in 2018 they are made very immediate and jar all the more. But of course there isn't really a solution to this (other than for me to quit my griping and deal with it) - any attempt to put different words to the music would be silly, and the song pieces were written to accomodate words, in some cases a lot of words, and as you say would absolutely feel incomplete if done as instrumentals. And given that I know the words, I'd probably “hear” them in their absence anyway...

Unless, of course, Jakko could be persuaded to deliver all the lyrics in Japanese. Now there's a thought!

[Spiral]

the lyrics, in many cases, are indeed not the greatest (I'd not go so far as to say cringe-worthy), but for me they remain an integral part of the songs

Hey, no reason they can't be both...

nevertheless, they remain somehow integral to what the songs are, and so while they're far from my favourite lyrics in the world of music, I just cannot think of those songs any other way ... for me, Crimson isn't Crimson without the lyrics - good, bad or somewhere in the middle as they can be.

Fair enough. I wouldn't be opposed to instrumentalizing more things, but that has as much to do with my own preference for non-verbal music as anything else. (It worked gangbusters with "Neurotica," though the piece lends itself to it naturally more than anything Sinfield-era.) Fwiw the Double Trio was the first lineup I would have been old enough to see and appreciate if I'd been aware of KC at the time, but I'd agree with Mascodagama that it's not necessarily a generational thing.

The bottom line was (and still is) that if the music is good enough I'm going to learn to live with the lyrical shortcomings - no way would I miss out on the awesomemess that is ItCotCk, CttE or for that matter Reign In Blood just because of some words - but dissatisfaction with the words remains a factor, even if one can manage to more or less ignore them.

In the case of KC I actually find it easier to live with the words when listening to the studio albums and contemporary live recordings, inasmuch as some of the issues with the Sinfield and Palmer-James lyrics can be put down to being a product of their time. When those words are being sung at me by JJ in 2018 they are made very immediate and jar all the more. But of course there isn't really a solution to this (other than for me to quit my griping and deal with it) - any attempt to put different words to the music would be silly, and the song pieces were written to accomodate words, in some cases a lot of words, and as you say would absolutely feel incomplete if done as instrumentals. And given that I know the words, I'd probably “hear” them in their absence anyway...

Unless, of course, Jakko could be persuaded to deliver all the lyrics in Japanese. Now there's a thought!

I'd have been happy if I could have explained this half as well as you did. Yes, that's my exact feeling. Very few lyrics actually get to the point of awfulness in my book: I'm thinking mainly of "ItWoP," "Ladies of the Road," "Cirkus" and "The Letters." It can't help feeling odd hearing those latter two in person in this day and age, as you say... though JJ clearly loves every second of singing them anyway, so more power to him. As with most anything, really, the only thing is to take it for what it is.

[Sordel]

On a Prog forum it seems like letting off a bomb in a greenhouse to complain about lyrics. Crimson lyrics are what they are; they hardly have any bearing on a live recording.

[g.bremer]

Thanks for another great review John! I love how deeply you get into the music.

As far as the current lineup goes, more than any previous lineup the recorded music doesn't do nearly enough justice to the live experience. I'm not really interested in buying/downloading any more. Radical Action was ok at best. When I saw them this past fall, the music had a power and intensity that is hopelessly absent on the recordings. As a contrast, I've been listening to the New Haven '03 CD and the power of that lineup really shone on that recording. Nothing could beat the ear flattening I experienced at the Beacon in NYC that year, but the New Haven recording comes pretty close.

Jakko is the best choice for this band and music they're playing. I agree that his performance of this music has been evolving steadily to the point where he nails most everything he sings.

[jkelman]

Thanks for another great review John! I love how deeply you get into the music.

Thanks, man, that's nice of you to say!

As far as the current lineup goes, more than any previous lineup the recorded music doesn't do nearly enough justice to the live experience. I'm not really interested in buying/downloading any more. Radical Action was ok at best. When I saw them this past fall, the music had a power and intensity that is hopelessly absent on the recordings. As a contrast, I've been listening to the New Haven '03 CD and the power of that lineup really shone on that recording. Nothing could beat the ear flattening I experienced at the Beacon in NYC that year, but the New Haven recording comes pretty close.

Have you heard the Chicago show? If not, you might want to reconsider - it's much "hotter" than RA. Vienna sits very close to it, albeit with a cleaner mix vs Chicago's soundboard.

If you've heard Chicago and remain nonplussed, then fair enough. But if you've not, I'd strongly suggest you start by checking that out it has a lot of material not on RA. Or, if you want to hear how this group kills "Fracture" then the Vienna set would be a good place to start, with its additional three "Thrakattak"-like collages.

Or not
Cheers!
John

[jkelman]

I feel that is a rather unfair response to John's quite thoughtful post. It seems clear to me that he isn't saying younger people can’t appreciate the Sinfield / Palmer-James lyrics, simply that if you are one of those who doesn't think much of them, it may be rather easier to reconcile oneself to them if you absorbed the songs as part of the zeitgeist at the time. Not really an outrageous thesis.

Where's that "hit the nail on the head" emoji when you need it?

Thanks - I certainly meant no offense, nor did I intend folks to think that not being around at the time those albums were first released somehow makes old farts like yours truly, who was, in any way better equipped to appreciate them. Only, as Mascodagama so correctly points out, that I was, indeed, part of that time and so what those who weren't might find cringe-worthy, I can more easily give a pass. Even if I wasn't ever a huge fan of the lyrics, they rarely reached the degree of being crying-worthy (though Ladies of the Road certainly was...but maybe that's just me!).

Anyway, thanks again Mascodagama...and sorry to anyone who may have been misled by what I wrote into thinking that I was suggesting anything but what he has so much more succinctly stated

[Frumious B]

At this rate there will end up being more live albums from the post 2014 Crimson than there are studio albums from every incarnation of the band. Oh, and Jakko still sounds like a poor man’s David Sylvian to me.

[groon]

Very few lyrics actually get to the point of awfulness in my book: I'm thinking mainly of "ItWoP," "Ladies of the Road," "Cirkus" and "The Letters." It can't help feeling odd hearing those latter two in person in this day and age, as you say... though JJ clearly loves every second of singing them anyway, so more power to him. As with most anything, really, the only thing is to take it for what it is.

With you on this. As for "The Letters", ever since I heard the Brondesbury Tapes I've preferred the lyrics to "Why don't you just drop in?", which eventually morphed into "The Letters".

Why don't you just drop in
And love the life of sin
And squirm inside your cage
You are a prisoner of your rage

Why don't you just drop in
And play the game to win
The rules you pick and choose
The odds are stacked for you to lose

Why don't you just drop in
And let the game begin
You'll wish you'd learn to play
And live to die another day

(The writer was one Robert Fripp, I believe.)

[Dave (in MA)]

Jakko still sounds like a poor man’s David Sylvian to me.

I hear no resemblance whatsoever.

[Mister Triscuits]

I hear no resemblance whatsoever.

I always thought Jakko sounded a little like Mike Keneally. Notice this mainly on the Bruised Romantic Glee Club material.

[jkelman]

I hear no resemblance whatsoever.

Nor do I.

[kenticus]

Listened to it the past day a few times.....

Fracture is a total delight! I actually like how Fripp and Jakko traded lines in the first section of the song, makes for a cool stereo experience with Fripp panned to the right speaker and Jakko panned to the left one. The moto perpetuo: always exquisite and put a huge smile on this punters face. Only knock is I wish Fripp was a little higher in the mix here, but in general sounds superb! Love how chaotic and crazy feeling they made the last section feel as well....love anytime this massive band is going crazy enough that it feels like it could go off the rails.

I do like the soundscapes too! They had such a calming presence about them as I listened to them driving into work....awesome hearing them stitched together to make a nice long relaxing experience!

Rest of the set: indiscipline, easy money, epitaph, court, and starless all were standouts. Indiscipline especially as for Fripps solo he goes full classic Fripp laser beam solo, which is a fun difference between his soloing on the same tune on live in Chicago....one of many reasons to pick this up, there’s always different nuances in the songs!

[tallliman]

I've just given this a listen and my main comment compared to Toronto and Radical Action is that a lot of the performance is less staid and freer especially in the drums. Even Starless seems to flow better on the uptempo solo section. My main complaint was that the 3 drummers often made things a bit lumbering but it's less apparent here (at least to my ears)

[Frumious B]

Nor do I.

I’m mainly going by the vocals on A Scarcity Of Miracles.

[jamesmanzi]

Halway thru (after jumping straight to Fracture, of course) and damn this is good.

[marblesmike]

I saw this is available as a DGM download now. Is there any way to download individual tracks so I can just download Fracture for now? Or do I have to download the whole shebang?

[bigjohnwayne]

I've listened through about twice. In my mind, this lineup has gotten better with each passing month, thus this is their 2nd best outing, behind Chicago. If all you've heard is Radical Action, you've got to invest the 40 bucks to get this and Chicago. You won't have "One More Red Nightmare", but everything is higher energy and tighter.

[Mister Triscuits]

My copy arrived with the pocket holding the second disc unglued at the top, revealing that the interiors of the pockets are printed with the cover photos.

[per anporth]

I've listened through about twice. In my mind, this lineup has gotten better with each passing month, thus this is their 2nd best outing, behind Chicago. If all you've heard is Radical Action, you've got to invest the 40 bucks to get this and Chicago. You won't have "One More Red Nightmare", but everything is higher energy and tighter.

I think that this is pretty much right. Toronto & Radical Action are both fine in & of themselves, but Vienna & Chicago are really a significant step-up, recording the way this extraordinary band is growing & getting better as an "organism" through the development of its life. It's as if the challenges of playing new material are compelling the band to discover new possibilities for itself. And so, even though Vienna marks a distinct move on from Toronto & Radical Action, Chicago is definitely better again. But the treasures on the third disc very much make this another excellent addition to the records of this wonderful late flowering of the Crims.