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Thread: Blood on the Rooftops - what does "they're out for 23" mean?

  1. #1

    Blood on the Rooftops - what does "they're out for 23" mean?

    My wife got us tickets to see a Genesis tribute band (The Genesis Show) tomorrow night, and apparently their current set list focuses mostly on the Wind and Wuthering and Seconds Out albums. So I was listening to those two albums this morning as a warmup, and it occurred to me that I've never understood what Phil's saying in half the lyrics to "Blood on the Rooftops".

    A little Googling turned up the lyrics, and they mostly make sense to me - sort of a commentary on people who don't want to be bothered with the world's bad/depressing/confusing news but would rather just sit back with a glass of wine or beer and watch Batman or Tarzan.

    There are a few British references that went over my head (the Wednesday Play, grime on the Tyne, etc). More Googling explained those, but the one line that no one seems to get is "When old Mother Goose stops, and they're out for 23". What the heck does that mean?

    I'm not sure I entirely get the bit about "The trouble was started by a young Errol Flynn" and "Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again", but it's that "out for 23" that I'm really puzzling over.

  2. #2
    "out for 23" is a reference to the English cricket team

  3. #3
    Hackett wrote the lyrics, not Phil.

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    Progdog ThomasKDye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    "out for 23" is a reference to the English cricket team
    Which is why it's followed by "Then the rain at Lords stopped play." Heck, I only know about cricket from watching Monty Python and even I knew what that meant.

    The whole song is a word-painting of someone's sad lonely life spent watching TV and integrating what they've seen into their thought patterns. The title is Phil's, so Steve had to awkwardly shoehorn that in, but all the rest of the lyrics are Steve's.
    "Arf." -- Frank Zappa, "Beauty Knows No Pain" (live version)

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    My wife got us tickets to see a Genesis tribute band (The Genesis Show) tomorrow night
    Funny, I'm probably going to see a tribute band tomorrow night called Prognosis, that does covers of Genesis, Floyd, and I'm not sure what else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasKDye View Post
    Which is why it's followed by "Then the rain at Lords stopped play." Heck, I only know about cricket from watching Monty Python and even I knew what that meant.

    The whole song is a word-painting of someone's sad lonely life spent watching TV and integrating what they've seen into their thought patterns. The title is Phil's, so Steve had to awkwardly shoehorn that in, but all the rest of the lyrics are Steve's.
    I think the 'glass of beer dear, what's the time?' line contradicts the fact that the character is sad and lonely. I've always thought the references were just random things that anyone in England in 1976 could pick up from watching tv one evening. My favourite line is 'seems Helen Of Troy has found a new face again'.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    Hackett wrote the lyrics, not Phil.
    Yeah but Collins sang it, which is what I meant by "can't understand what Phil's saying".

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    "out for 23" is a reference to the English cricket team
    In that case I won't ask exactly what it means.

    I once read a P. G. Wodehouse story that involved a very detailed description of a cricket game, and after reading pages and pages and pages about it, the sport still made absolutely no sense to me.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I think the 'glass of beer dear, what's the time?' line contradicts the fact that the character is sad and lonely. I've always thought the references were just random things that anyone in England in 1976 could pick up from watching tv one evening. My favourite line is 'seems Helen Of Troy has found a new face again'.
    I'd say it's both these things. Someone who feels their earlier life during WWII and around then was easier, cozier, and the (then) current wars in the middle east were much harder to fathom. It does have a melancholy aura to it, but it's not necessarily someone's "sad, lonely life." As Steve points out, the person has someone to share it with.

    I had never really paid attention to this song lyric before, so both your perspectives have been helpful. A great song, all in all.

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    Progdog ThomasKDye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I think the 'glass of beer dear, what's the time?' line contradicts the fact that the character is sad and lonely. I've always thought the references were just random things that anyone in England in 1976 could pick up from watching tv one evening. My favourite line is 'seems Helen Of Troy has found a new face again'.
    Fair enough. It definitely seems like a sad existence, since the next line is "The grime on the Tyne is mine, all mine."
    "Arf." -- Frank Zappa, "Beauty Knows No Pain" (live version)

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    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    "out for 23" is a reference to the English cricket team
    I hate bugs.






  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    In that case I won't ask exactly what it means.

    I once read a P. G. Wodehouse story that involved a very detailed description of a cricket game, and after reading pages and pages and pages about it, the sport still made absolutely no sense to me.
    The US edition of Roy Harper's HQ was called When An Old Cricketer Leaves The Crease, and had completely different cover artwork (apparently, someone at the US label thought Roy walking on water would be deemed "offensive" in some Stateside quarters). The front cover shows Roy in cricket gear, and the back cover features an apparently detailed explanation of the rules, which read like a John Cleese piece.

    I've heard it said you basically have to be a cricketer to understand the game. They'll literally play a game that lasts five days, and it'll still end in a draw. There was an episode of Top Gear, where the three idiots took over a talk radio station for the day, and drove everyone crazy. At one point, the regular news reader is complaining about their lack of knowledge of cricket. "We've only been playing it in this country for 300 years", to which James May replies, "What? The same game?!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Funny, I'm probably going to see a tribute band tomorrow night called Prognosis, that does covers of Genesis, Floyd, and I'm not sure what else.
    Demand they throw in UK's "In the Dead of Night." They do a nice job with it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I think the 'glass of beer dear, what's the time?' line contradicts the fact that the character is sad and lonely. I've always thought the references were just random things that anyone in England in 1976 could pick up from watching tv one evening. My favourite line is 'seems Helen Of Troy has found a new face again'.
    Yes, I also don't think its about a sad and lonely person as much as it is about people who don't want to think about or see the realities of the world on tv news, or be bothered to think about serious issues or debates on things like war, violence, the middle east etc, and would rather insulate themselves from all that by watching old movies, cricket matches and the Queen on Christmas Day etc.

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    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I think the 'glass of beer dear, what's the time?' line contradicts the fact that the character is sad and lonely. I've always thought the references were just random things that anyone in England in 1976 could pick up from watching tv one evening. My favourite line is 'seems Helen Of Troy has found a new face again'.
    I thought the 'what's the time?' line was so they would know what was on tv at the time, or so they would be sure not to miss a particular show? And Helen of Troy was so beautiful people would stare at her. They way they now do with TV? Whatever the case, this is one of those songs where the music is so good it doesn't matter what the lyrics are.

  16. #16
    I have a vague memory from the 1970s of some riot that broke out at some sporting event in Europe/England.

    Surely the final line, about Helen of Troy, is about how easily some people find reasons to engage in violence. Helen of Troy was the reason for the Trojan War, right? A pretty stupid reason to go to war. And a sporting event is a pretty stupid reason for a riot.

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    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Much as I hate cricket, here goes: cricket is kind of the opposite of baseball, in that the batting side typically scores many runs per out. A "century", where a single batsman scores 100 or more runs, is a feat comparable to a shutout in baseball -- impressive, but far from unprecedented. So "out for 23", meaning that the entire side is out while scoring only 23 runs, is a very bad showing indeed. As others have noted, Lord's is the oldest and most famous cricket ground. What this has to do with the rest of the song, or with Old Mother Goose, I cannot conjecture.

    Unlike SongForAmerica, I never thought the song was about riots -- kind of like Bill G, I thought the new Helen was simply the TV screen. Captivatingly beautiful, can't look away.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  18. #18
    I've sung this song many times. I think it's about violence and TV's depiction of it.

    Its title is blood on the rooftops.

    And look at all the images of violence:

    Arabs vs. Jews

    World war

    "The Streets of San Francisco"--a 1970's crime show

    "A word from Peking"--capital of China, then ruled by Mao, the worst mass murderer in history, even worse than Stalin or Hitler

    "Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again" = "Once again, human beings have found yet another excuse to engage in violence."

    The line right before this suggests rain stopped a cricket match, causing the fans to riot.

    And thanks to television, all these bloody images come through your rooftop and onto your TV screen, hence the song's title. Better to watch the Queen on Christmas Day.

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    I love this song too and to play Hackett's nice quasi-classical guitar intro often. Such a fun piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    A little Googling turned up the lyrics, and they mostly make sense to me - sort of a commentary on people who don't want to be bothered with the world's bad/depressing/confusing news but would rather just sit back with a glass of wine or beer and watch Batman or Tarzan.
    Yes. I seem to recall that Hackett actually said in an interview that it was about 'couch potatoes'- all that's going on in the world so it's easier for people to focus on TV triviality instead. I think the references are just random things that could have been on TV at that point in time.

    One of the best things they ever did, IMHO. The arrangement is stunning, and whilst Hackett's acoustic playing certainly gets to shine, Banks' keyboard playing is also exquisite. Sadly never played live by Genesis (something Banks also expressed some regret about, I think in the Chapter And Verse book?) but it did become a set staple for Hackett over the latter part of his career.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasKDye View Post
    since the next line is "The grime on the Tyne is mine, all mine."
    I guess people already know this but this is a reference to their labelmates Lindisfarne's song 'Fog On The Tyne' (subtitute 'grime' for 'fog' and you essentially have its chorus).

  21. #21
    What parts did Phil write?

  22. #22
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Yes. I seem to recall that Hackett actually said in an interview that it was about 'couch potatoes'- all that's going on in the world so it's easier for people to focus on TV triviality instead. I think the references are just random things that could have been on TV at that point in time.
    This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I guess people already know this but this is a reference to their labelmates Lindisfarne's song 'Fog On The Tyne' (subtitute 'grime' for 'fog' and you essentially have its chorus).
    Thanks for that. I was aware of the Lindisfarne song, and how that success helped fuel Charisma Records during that period, but I confess to never having heard it (that I know of). Seems like I checked into Lindisfarne ages ago and quickly decided it wasn't my bag, so I never made the connection to Blood On The Rooftops.

    Thanks also to Tom (upthread) for the cricket explanation!

    Love this Genesis song. I recall Tony saying they strongly considered it for the 2007 tour, but I guess went with Ripples instead.

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    "Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again." I always thought it meant that another actress in a long line of many was playing the part of Helen of Troy. Sort of like today you could say "Seems Doctor Who has found a new face again."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Thanks for that. I was aware of the Lindisfarne song, and how that success helped fuel Charisma Records during that period, but I confess to never having heard it (that I know of). Seems like I checked into Lindisfarne ages ago and quickly decided it wasn't my bag, so I never made the connection to Blood On The Rooftops.

    Thanks also to Tom (upthread) for the cricket explanation!

    Love this Genesis song. I recall Tony saying they strongly considered it for the 2007 tour, but I guess went with Ripples instead.
    'Ripples' is probably my favourite Genesis track so I can't say they called it wrong. In retrospect the lower key didn't suit 'Ripples' that well, but it was still wonderful to hear it.

    They actually have several truly great songs in this mid-late 70s period which never saw the light of day in concert- this, 'Mad Man Moon', 'Undertow', 'Many Too Many'. And then there are others which didn't last beyond the relevant album's tour- 'Entangled', 'Down And Out'...

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