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Thread: Blood on the Rooftops - what does "they're out for 23" mean?

  1. #26
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdotdo View Post
    "Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again." I always thought it meant that another actress in a long line of many was playing the part of Helen of Troy. Sort of like today you could say "Seems Doctor Who has found a new face again."
    I never saw it as that literal/specific. Just a metaphor for the latest hot, new, beautiful actress on the scene. The next in a long line before her, and with many more yet to come.

  2. #27
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post
    I've sung this song many times. I think it's about violence and TV's depiction of it.

    Its title is blood on the rooftops.

    And look at all the images of violence:

    Arabs vs. Jews

    World war

    "The Streets of San Francisco"--a 1970's crime show

    "A word from Peking"--capital of China, then ruled by Mao, the worst mass murderer in history, even worse than Stalin or Hitler

    "Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face again" = "Once again, human beings have found yet another excuse to engage in violence."

    The line right before this suggests rain stopped a cricket match, causing the fans to riot.

    And thanks to television, all these bloody images come through your rooftop and onto your TV screen, hence the song's title. Better to watch the Queen on Christmas Day.
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Yes. I seem to recall that Hackett actually said in an interview that it was about 'couch potatoes'- all that's going on in the world so it's easier for people to focus on TV triviality instead. I think the references are just random things that could have been on TV at that point in time.
    These both make sense to me. Couch potatoes growing numb to all the violence the TV brings to their living room. Or something like that.

    I agree with Tony Banks who once stated that 'Blood...' was one of his all time favorite Genesis tracks

  3. #28
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    What parts did Phil write?
    My understanding is just the melody for the chorus and the song title. Other than the song title, Steve wrote all the lyrics as Thomas and DocProgger stated. So mostly a Hackett song.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    In that case I won't ask exactly what it means.

    I once read a P. G. Wodehouse story that involved a very detailed description of a cricket game, and after reading pages and pages and pages about it, the sport still made absolutely no sense to me.
    CRICKET: As explained to a foreigner...

    You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

    When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

  5. #30
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    Strong contender for my favourite Genesis tune of all time, and that is a very congested field I can tell you. Stunning 'tron use too. Those opening notes on the guitar never fail to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and when the first 'tron flourish comes in way in the distance....phew!

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    These both make sense to me. Couch potatoes growing numb to all the violence the TV brings to their living room. Or something like that.

    I agree with Tony Banks who once stated that 'Blood...' was one of his all time favorite Genesis tracks
    I thought Hackett said it was about visiting his parents, and them getting all their news and information from television and not always understanding world events - "arabs and the jews boy, too much for me"

  7. #32
    Many thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread. It's shed a lot of light on the song for me - I think I even understand the "out for 23" line now. And while I've always liked this song, it's quickly becoming one of my all-time favorites.

    I find it particularly interesting that there have been at least four different interpretations of the line about "Helen of Troy has found a new face" and a strong argument could be made for any of them being the correct one.

  8. #33
    One of my all-time favorite pieces of music from any prog band, let alone Genesis. So different than the usual Tony/Mike compositions (which I of course I love just as much). Steve's haunting Spanish guitar, Phil's perfect voice for the song, Tony's oboe synth melodies underneath, Mike's bass line and MELLOTRON used like Pinder in a a Moody Blues songs.

    As an American, I love the Modern Englishness of the lyrics.

    I once read that Tony was not a huge fan of BOTR at the time of W&W, but after letting it rippen "on the vine" over time so to speak (20 years) realized it a gem. Shame he didn't realize it at the of W&W because SH may not have left.

    Really love Gary O'Toole's vocals on the recent live versions. Slightly different than Phil's, but works just as good (plus he plays drums while singing (must think he is Don Henley or Gil Moore).

    Steve's W&W tour was a real treat. Shows that he loves Tony's and Mike's songs as mich as his own. Wished Mike/Tony/Phil felt the same back in 1976-77.

  9. #34
    Member PotatoSolution's Avatar
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    There are a ton of cricket references in the third Hitchhiker's Guide book, Life The Universe and Everything.

    All of the references sailed over my head when I read that book in high school, and Google didn't exist yet, so I was just baffled.

    I also listened to "Paperlate" for years without knowing what the hell it meant.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adinfinitum View Post

    I once read that Tony was not a huge fan of BOTR at the time of W&W, but after letting it rippen "on the vine" over time so to speak (20 years) realized it a gem. Shame he didn't realize it at the of W&W because SH may not have left.

    Steve's W&W tour was a real treat. Shows that he loves Tony's and Mike's songs as mich as his own. Wished Mike/Tony/Phil felt the same back in 1976-77.
    Hackett's departure definitely caused some lingering bad feeling- Banks later said that he was surprised by the timing as he'd felt Wind And Wuthering had some of his strongest contributions to the band (whilst Rutherford often says that line about Hackett being a stronger player than writer). Not getting what was to become 'Please Don't Touch' onto the album was a major cause of friction; I recall Hackett being very critical of 'Wot Gorilla' in particular in one interview.

  11. #36
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    CRICKET: As explained to a foreigner...

    You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

    When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!
    Well that clears that up.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I recall Hackett being very critical of 'Wot Gorilla' in particular in one interview.
    Without "Wot Gorilla?", side one of Wind and Wuthering would be a perfect album side, with three superb songs: "Eleventh Earl of Mar," "One for the Vine," and "Your Own Special Way." "Blood on the Rooftops" is the highlight of side two.

    Wind and Wuthering is my favorite Genesis album, followed by A Trick of the Tail: excellent music and excellent lyrics. It's amusing that the band went to pieces not when Peter Gabriel left but when Steve Hackett did.

  13. #38
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    ^I personally think there's a mid-album lull, with YOSW/Gorilla/Mouse's Night. None of them are bad but I find all three flawed in some way (too long, too short and too twee respectively, if anyone cares!). I'd have chosen 'Inside And Out' over all three of these.

    '...Rooftops' is where the album gets back on track for me.

  14. #39
    I love "Your Own Special Way." It's a simpler song that makes a nice contrast with the two heavy-duty songs that precede it. But "All in a Mouse's Night" is probably the worst song on the album.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post
    I love "Your Own Special Way." It's a simpler song that makes a nice contrast with the two heavy-duty songs that precede it. . .
    I'm glad you like it. It's a sweet song. I remember very clearly buying that record the first day it was in the shops, coming home and spinning the record. As soon as I heard that song I was crestfallen and knew this was the beginning of the end of Genesis as a progressive band and I was right.

  16. #41
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    'Your Own Special Way' doesn't justify its length for me. And I've posted many times how much I dislike the electric piano solo. I think I'd like the song more if it was shorter...their later excursions into this more 'commercial' territory were tighter, for better or worse, depending on how you feel.

    '...Mouse's Night' is musically very good but too corny lyrically for my taste. I feel similarly about 'The Lady Lies' on the follow-up.

    By contrast, there is not a single thing I dislike about '...Rooftops'.

  17. #42
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Oh dear, I adore All In A Mouse's Night as well as The Lady Lies. Oh well, we're in agreement on YOSW, especially that electric piano. I do like the verses, but the chorus makes that song the first one I skip in their catalogue from Trespass onward.
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    Well, it could have been worse. There's a ghastly Mike and the Mechanics-style MOR arrangement of YOSW with Paul Carrack on vocals by, um, Steve Hackett! It's on the first Genesis Revisited album, of course.

    In the pointless trivia department, I seem to remember the British comedian David Baddiel citing hearing '...Rooftops' for the first time as the reason he became a Genesis fan at their 2006 reunion press conference.

  19. #44
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Well, it could have been worse. There's a ghastly Mike and the Mechanics-style MOR arrangement of YOSW with Paul Carrack on vocals by, um, Steve Hackett! It's on the first Genesis Revisited album, of course..
    One of my least listened-to Hackett albums (along with Blues With A Feeling!)
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^I personally think there's a mid-album lull, with YOSW/Gorilla/Mouse's Night. None of them are bad but I find all three flawed in some way (too long, too short and too twee respectively, if anyone cares!). I'd have chosen 'Inside And Out' over all three of these.

    '...Rooftops' is where the album gets back on track for me.
    Interesting that Gorilla and Steve's rejected Please Don't Touch are so rhythmically similar... I still don't see why they couldn't have modulated (if needed) or some other Banksian arrangement trick to bring the two ideas together.

  21. #46
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    RE: Helen of Troy, remember this verse from Ripples, which refers to Helen of Troy:

    The face that launched a thousand ships
    Is sinking fast, that happens you know,
    The water gets below.
    Seems not very long ago
    Lovelier she was than any that I know.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Well, it could have been worse. There's a ghastly Mike and the Mechanics-style MOR arrangement of YOSW with Paul Carrack on vocals by, um, Steve Hackett! It's on the first Genesis Revisited album, of course..
    It is a love song, I feel the arrangement suits the song better than on W&W. That one seems like they didn't know how to do a simple song and over did it. As pointed out earlier, its too long as the solo doesn't fit the song. YMMV

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    One of my least listened-to Hackett albums (along with Blues With A Feeling!)
    I've had this cd years, but have never listened to it. Its not something I've ever done before. I picked it up and then read some bad reviews so I never gave it a spin. Its getting about that time!

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    Oh dear, I adore All In A Mouse's Night as well as The Lady Lies. Oh well, we're in agreement on YOSW, especially that electric piano. I do like the verses, but the chorus makes that song the first one I skip in their catalogue from Trespass onward.
    In total agreement with The Lady Lies. was pissed with Phil's vocals on the live version on Archive 2. Guess that on his a song he had a hard time of getting behind. Love that music on AiaMN but the lyrics while coherent border on cringe worthy. And my vote for the first skip since Trespass goes to Return of the Giant Hogweed. Great music but again lyrics are coherent border on cringe worthy.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    CRICKET: As explained to a foreigner...

    You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

    When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!
    You gotta get in to get out.

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