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Thread: Revitalizing Interest in Physical Formats

  1. #26
    So I guess the bottom line for anyone sitting on a pile of fancy limited edition specialty CD box sets, waiting to resell them to make some bucks, sell them NOW before the few of us left who care about that stuff kick the bucket.

  2. #27
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Investing in CDs for your retirement is a risky strategy.

  3. #28
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimjack View Post
    Assuming facts not in evidence...how is it exactly a problem that “young people” (define please) don’t value physical releases that labels need to address? So long as fans are discovering music they love, connecting with those artists, deepening that engagement and consuming their music on the fans’ platform of choice—hopefully with enough emotional investment in that artist to purchase a ticket and/or some merch—what’s the problem?
    We’re being PLENTY creative in tons of ways you don’t see because—for the most part—you’re no longer the target audience for much of what constitutes popular music today. The physical market is on its way out. Sure, there is a place for special products, limited edition releases, deluxe editions, archival releases, “official bootleg series” type projects and of course vinyl, but we’d be better off putting creativity into finding ways to make those projects affordable, profitable and ensuring friction-free (or at least reduced) ways of getting them into the hands of fans. And that’s a bigger challenge than you’d think. We continue to try. Sometimes we get it right. And even though we can’t/don’t always respond, we are listening.
    There’s no deep-state conspiracy of executives trying to kill the physical marketplace. But you’ve got a perfect storm of marketplace conditions that is hastening the demise of formats that many younger consumers not only have little interest in...they actually find the CD/DVD formats limiting, troublesome and rather useless. What possible reason would there be to convince those folks that they’re somehow “wrong” when they aren’t (in the context of their lifestyle)? For many of the older folks on this board, the format is pleasing and for the most part, the artists making music in this genre know this and are accommodating about it. Some of the newer artists more begrudgingly so . Younger denizens of this board who truly love the CD format are—for their demographic—outliers. Their voices may be loud but data doesn’t lie...physical CDs are pretty much dead to their demo.
    Everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion—this little rant is mine. It’s a streaming future. Get used to it. Blah blah blah sound quality blah blah blah artwork/liner notes blah blah blah it was better “back in the day”...none of those arguments are compelling to the majority of younger music fans and they are the ones driving the business. As legendary music executive Bobbi Fleckman once said, “money talks, and bullshit walks”. The vinyl revival is awesome but it’s a tiny slice of the business. Streaming, streaming, streaming. And don’t knock it till you’ve tried it...and I mean REALLY tried it. Build a few playlists. Try following others who’ve built some awesome playlists. If you’re a Spotify user and you’re not checking out Discover Weekly, you’re missing out. The Your Daily Mix playlists are also quite good. On the desktop, they’ve recently introduced a credits feature—right click on a track and select “show credits” and you can see songwriter/producer info...a big step in the right direction to providing a more complete listening experience.
    I’m not suggesting streaming is perfect. Nor am I suggesting that compared to vinyl or CD it’s going to be “as good” to certain listeners who’ve had a lifetime of listening using those older formats. But it’s more than good enough for a lot of people who are not only listening to more music than ever before, they’re discovering more NEW music (to them) than ever. And that’s a good thing.
    The big loser in the format wars here are downloads...those numbers are PLUMMETING...much faster than CD sales erosion in fact.
    Oh, good, so there's no problem then! I didn't realize there was enough profit being made by all, and that the artists are making plenty via Spotify. Excellent!
    Last edited by JKL2000; 02-06-2018 at 08:44 PM.

  4. #29
    Bobbi Fleckman was a visionary, we need more like her.
    And get Artie Fufkin on the case. He'll move all kinds of physical product, and you can kick his ass if he doesn't!

  5. #30
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    So I guess the bottom line for anyone sitting on a pile of fancy limited edition specialty CD box sets, waiting to resell them to make some bucks, sell them NOW before the few of us left who care about that stuff kick the bucket.
    Not me, I plan to keep mine to a ripe, old age.

  6. #31
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Maybe you can line your coffin with 'em.

  7. #32
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    I plan to be cremated with my collection.

  8. #33
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Maybe you can line your coffin with 'em.
    They’ll make a good funeral pyre.

    The KC set give off the brightest light.

  9. #34
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Art Zoyd will be smoky.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Oh, good, so there's no problem then! I didn't realize there was enough profit being made by all, and that the artists are making plenty via Spotify. Excellent!
    There's money to be made by bands. The pie is smaller and a lot less money will come from sales of physical media, but it's not like bands can't make a living if they grow a large enough audience.

    Bands with 20,000 fans spread out over 5 continents (like a number of prog bands) are getting killed, because they aren't big enough to tour much, and less money than ever is getting made off of sales of physical media. While the internet is the tool that made the above scenario possible in the first place, it is what ultimately killed the CD.

  11. #36
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Great, sounds like a bright future for musicians. Lots of opportunities to get your music out there. Although, getting paid anything for what you produce may be passe as well. Those services that allow unlimited listening are assuring that new music will never see the light of day. Too bad for someone. Of course people will have no idea what they are missing, because, it wont exist.

  12. #37
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    I thought this article was pretty interesting:

    https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...ss-endorsement

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Oh, good, so there's no problem then! I didn't realize there was enough profit being made by all, and that the artists are making plenty via Spotify. Excellent!
    Please be fair and don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t make any sort of blanket generalization statement that there was “no problem”. You argue that there was a problem with younger music fans not valuing physical formats. I challenge that argument. Don’t twist that into a “streaming solves every challenge faced by every element of the music industry”. Plenty of people didn’t profit from physical media long before streaming was even an idea. Most in fact. I’m not suggesting everything was perfect then either.
    Plenty of problems exist in recorded music, publishing, touring and merch—then and now. Hopefully smart people will continue to hack away at the issues and creative artists will continue to break barriers.
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  14. #39
    I still visit stores, mostly in Delft, which is a city with lots of students and there are at least 3 well assorted CD-stores, which also sell vinyl. And I mostly see younger people in those stores. There is also a store specialised in classical music.

  15. #40
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yodelgoat View Post
    Great, sounds like a bright future for musicians. Lots of opportunities to get your music out there. Although, getting paid anything for what you produce may be passe as well. Those services that allow unlimited listening are assuring that new music will never see the light of day. Too bad for someone. Of course people will have no idea what they are missing, because, it wont exist.
    If someone won't create music because they can't get paid for it, then one could argue they aren't much of an artist. But no worries, there is more music becoming available in 2018 than in any other year previous. So whatever we are missing out on has been replaced by those who could not get their music out there before the internet.

    Most of the bands from the "heyday" we enjoy were beneficiaries of the previous model, where a record company would "hire" them and promote them in exchange for recordings and concerts. The music itself didn't inherently have financial value then and it doesn't now.

    I get paid for my craft because someone understands the value in what I do. Our clients pay for those services through the company I work for. I could just make content myself if I wanted and throw it out there on the internet, but it hasn't been commissioned and I shouldn't expect it to have value.

    Those musicians who want to get paid in 2018 should find someone willing to pay them for their work, performance, etc. BEFORE they do it.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  16. #41
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimjack View Post
    Please be fair and don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t make any sort of blanket generalization statement that there was “no problem”. You argue that there was a problem with younger music fans not valuing physical formats. I challenge that argument. Don’t twist that into a “streaming solves every challenge faced by every element of the music industry”.
    I simply posed the question "could the big music companies release some kind of special physical releases that younger people might be interested in?" I actually don't see young peoples' lack of interested in physical media to be a problem, I just wondered if there was something major labels could release that WOULD trigger interest. I was actually thinking in the back of my mind about when Prince gave away free CDs in newspapers.) Anyway, a long defense of the merits of Spotify seemed to be ignoring the question I posed (which really wasn't about overall problems in the music industry) and implying that profits from streaming were taking up the slack from a drop in physical releases. I guess it wasn't clear WHO you thought Streaming was good for. Listeners? That I don't doubt, I agree with those who say it's a good time for music listeners.

    One thing I dislike about all the major streaming services though is how they imply in advertising that customers will have access to "all music" via those services. If that were true I'd be 100% on board, however it's nowhere near true. The real problem with the end of physical releases is that there are many albums that will never be released again, and will never be available any other way. So streaming is definitely not a full answer to the problem of the end of physical releases.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Those musicians who want to get paid in 2018 should find someone willing to pay them for their work, performance, etc. BEFORE they do it.
    I think you meant this as a joke (hence the smiley) but seriously this is happening already via crowdfunding.

    In economics there is a class of goods called information goods; music may be a form of it. The idea is that information is costly to produce but once you've produced it, it has no value for you because anyone can tell it to others (copy it, in the case of music) infinitely for nothing. The only way to profit from it is to get some one to pay before you expend effort to produce it.

    So that's kickstarter. While today's fans like my daughters could not care less about buying/owning a CD when they can hear the songs on YouTube for free, they are now old enough that they are beginning to develop a taste for specific artists. If that artist said: I want to record new songs, please send me $25 (you'll get a shirt/poster/CD/download/whatever), I could see them doing that in a few years as they get more disposable income.


    What it does mean is that artists have to build up a local or regional reputation first (not easy but also not too different from the old days) so enough folks will want to kick in the $25.

  18. #43
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think we all have experience with crowdfunding by now. You're right that this could take up some of the slack. In fact I'm surprised the major labels haven't tried to get in on it by offering artists their promotional services for a piece of the crowdfunding action. But as you say, the band would have to have generated some local interest themselves first, and I don't know how much labels will spend on what they probably consider artist development. They'd probably prefer to sniff around the artists who already have had successful crowdfunding campaigns.

  19. #44
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    One thing I dislike about all the major streaming services though is how they imply in advertising that customers will have access to "all music" via those services. If that were true I'd be 100% on board, however it's nowhere near true. The real problem with the end of physical releases is that there are many albums that will never be released again, and will never be available any other way. So streaming is definitely not a full answer to the problem of the end of physical releases.
    This is a good point.

    There is music made to become a millionaire...

    And there is music made because your soul cries out in the dark.

    Perhaps the latter won't make it to Spotify for the unwashed rubes to ignore, but it'll still be made -- and the internet means that listeners can still find the producers. Marketing such music has never been a big moneymaker, and perhaps there's no longer enough profit to support any middlemen between the artist and her audience. But is it the death of independent music?

    No. Only the death of independent music collators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I simply posed the question "could the big music companies release some kind of special physical releases that younger people might be interested in?" I actually don't see young peoples' lack of interested in physical media to be a problem
    Except for that sentence in your original post where you state—in your exact words: “I was thinking about the problem of younger people not valuing physical releases” And you close this post as well with “not a full answer to the problem of the end of physical releases” and I argue that I—and lots of others—don’t agree with you that the end of physical releases is a problem. For a increasingly shrinking portion of the marketplace outside the mainstream, it may be frustrating, sad, a sign of change that some experience as baffling (or in some cases frightening), or burdensome in that it requires a shift in longtime habits around the discovery/acquisition/consumption of music. But it’s not like there’s a physical media switch that suddenly got turned to the “off” position. There’s still a physical marketplace, albeit a shrinking one. There remain specialists that serve niches so those artists and fans who chose not to engage in streaming have alternatives. And a VERY vibrant second-hand marketplace. Not suggesting its a perfect system but there are a LOT more alternatives now than ever.

    Streaming doesn’t work for everyone. Not all artists, not all fans. That’s now also very true for CDs (as many cars and computers don’t come with CD drives) and it’s also true for vinyl (cost and time to produce/ship on the artist side, relatively small addressable market on the consumer side). There’s no one-size-fits-all solution but there are SO many manageable pathways to discovering, acquiring and enjoying music across a wide variety of platforms that hopefully most people will find a method that suits them.
    But to the notion of creating some sort of limited edition physical product targeted to the younger, mainstream demographic for the purpose of getting them to “value” physical product in an effort to regain some sort of momentum around physical media? That seems like a solution in search of a problem from my perspective. YMMV. HAND.
    Daily jazz vinyl reviews on Instagram @jazzandcoffee

  21. #46
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    This is a good point.

    There is music made to become a millionaire...

    And there is music made because your soul cries out in the dark.

    Perhaps the latter won't make it to Spotify for the unwashed rubes to ignore, but it'll still be made -- and the internet means that listeners can still find the producers. Marketing such music has never been a big moneymaker, and perhaps there's no longer enough profit to support any middlemen between the artist and her audience. But is it the death of independent music?

    No. Only the death of independent music collators.
    I'm not even referring to only independently released music (though that's part of it). I meant more stuff like, say, Happy the Man. The Arista albums might be on Spotify, not sure, but there's a lot of stuff like that, from around the world, that was released by major labels but has fallen out of print and not yet found its way to streaming services.

    One thing these discussions always make me think of is the possibilities held by the part in the movie "The Man Who Fell to Earth" when Bowie's character invents the physical music player that consists of a little steel ball inserted into a small player. I always somehow combined this in my mind with the promise of being able to stream movies at home, and how if you could have ALL the music and movies ever released streamable in your home, it'd be perfection. All the classic movies, all the prog albums that were popular in South America but not promoted here, all the obscure prog LPs people would drool over on the old prog discussion boards on GEnie, etc! For me the promise of streaming wasn't really about newer, more popular releases, but having an experience like you might with books when going into a major library, but in your home with music and movies (and books - I guess I thought of Project Gutenberg too!), and having access to it all.

    Netflix is great, but its selection seems very limited. This iswhy the selection on YouTube sometimes seems better to me than the selection on Spotify or Netflix. There seem to be more obscure movies and albums, but of course they're all illegal.

  22. #47
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimjack View Post
    Except for that sentence in your original post where you state—in your exact words: “I was thinking about the problem of younger people not valuing physical releases”

    I mean a "problem" in the sense that the major labels might see it as a puzzle to solve, not a "difficulty" for young people themselves - I think they're very happy with what they have. But maybe as you imply, the major labels aren't really interested in trying to sell physical releases any longer. I just thought it was an interesting idea to try and figure out what kind, say a boxed set of music, might have great appeal to someone in their early 20s. Is there anything that could whip them up into a frenzy of wanting it the way a pair of limited edition sneakers was at least once able to - no idea if that whole sneaker thing is still a thing or not.

    Of course, I'm also reminded of that old SNL skit where the record executive is trying to convince young people to spend their money on a Juice Newton album.
    Last edited by JKL2000; 02-07-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  23. #48
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimjack View Post
    But to the notion of creating some sort of limited edition physical product targeted to the younger, mainstream demographic for the purpose of getting them to “value” physical product in an effort to regain some sort of momentum around physical media? That seems like a solution in search of a problem from my perspective. YMMV. HAND.
    I wasn't proposing that the major labels would actually try this, as they definitely don't seem interested. But it does remind me of the half-hearted attempts of record labels to implement copy protection on CDs, and how they just abandoned that. But I wasn't actually expecting them to succeed in that either, or want to succeed in it.

  24. #49
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    If someone won't create music because they can't get paid for it, then one could argue they aren't much of an artist. But no worries, there is more music becoming available in 2018 than in any other year previous. So whatever we are missing out on has been replaced by those who could not get their music out there before the internet.

    Most of the bands from the "heyday" we enjoy were beneficiaries of the previous model, where a record company would "hire" them and promote them in exchange for recordings and concerts. The music itself didn't inherently have financial value then and it doesn't now.

    I get paid for my craft because someone understands the value in what I do. Our clients pay for those services through the company I work for. I could just make content myself if I wanted and throw it out there on the internet, but it hasn't been commissioned and I shouldn't expect it to have value.

    Those musicians who want to get paid in 2018 should find someone willing to pay them for their work, performance, etc. BEFORE they do it.
    Well said. But I have roughly 3 hours worth of material that has never been released The idea of "shopping" any of it is ludicrous. I am confident I am not the only "artist" who doesn't release their music. So far,its been 12 years.

    I am hoping that perhaps Geddy or Alex would release new stuff from time to time. I have said in another thread that you just dont shut that creativity off like a faucet. They have to be putting ideas down from time to time. What will become of it? I'd certainly pay to hear it.

  25. #50
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I am hoping that perhaps Geddy or Alex would release new stuff from time to time. I have said in another thread that you just dont shut that creativity off like a faucet. They have to be putting ideas down from time to time. What will become of it? I'd certainly pay to hear it.
    I saw a recent interview with Geddy and he nodded towards his basement studio and said, "soon enough I will have to go in there and feed the beast". He's not done.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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