Heavy Construkction and Thrakattak

[bigjohnwayne]

At first I only liked 70s King Crimson.

Then I thought the Double Trio was ok, but mainly only the instrumentals.

Then I made a separate peace with the Discipline LP, by which point I kinda liked much of the vocal stuff from the Double Trio. And Beat was good.



Despite my love of 94-96 Crimson, I never got Thrakattak.

And I didn't like Construkction of Light that much. Why get a live CD by that lineup?


Within a few weeks of each other, I got a used copy of Thrakattak, and even was gobsmacked by the great reviews on this site to drop 35 bucks on Heavy Construkction (which is about a week and a half's disposable income for me with student loans and whatnot).


I have to say that I'm really digging both.


People aren't lying. The improvs by the 00-03 lineup of King Crimson are the best the band did since the '72-'74 band. And the Construkction of Light stuff sounds wayyyyy better live. (I still don't get "Deception of the Thrush", though).

As for Thrakattak, I'm loving it despite all the lapses in taste in guitar synth choices and never having really fallen in love with "Thrak" as a composition.

How does the other live stuff by the 00-03 lineup stack up?

Did they ever release a full show from 2003?

[StarThrower]

I got a used copy of Heavy Construkction for 7 bucks. I had a hard time with the crappy drum sounds. As for the 03 band, I like the Eyes Wide Open DVD.

[Dave (in MA)]

If you like Thrakattack, you should like Attakathrak, but AFAIK it's only in the Thrak Box.

[bigjohnwayne]

I've drawn a hard line not to get into the Crimson boxes.

I just like food and shelter way too much.

[Spiral]

How does the other live stuff by the 00-03 lineup stack up?

Very well. I had no problem with TCoL and Heavy ConstruKction at the time, even if I prefer the sound they had after Pat switched to a mix of acoustic and electric drums. This band simply gelled extremely well over the course of its run. '01 was great because they kept adding some killer improvs while the written material continued developing. In '03 the pieces and sets didn't have that variation anymore, but the band's chemistry and performances had become truly stellar.

Did they ever release a full show from 2003?

Several. Most by download, at least two (Milan and New Haven) as Club CDs.

[chalkpie]

I got a used copy of Heavy Construkction for 7 bucks. I had a hard time with the crappy drum sounds. As for the 03 band, I like the Eyes Wide Open DVD.

I might be wrong, but I believe Pat used an acoustic snare for the Eyes DVD, whereas it sounded like he was still using a Roland V-Drum electronic snare for the HC album (Maybe other acoustic drums also). Anyway to me it made a world of difference with the snare alone.

[MudShark22]

That is correct.

The edict for TCOL era was no acoustic drums.
This was relaxed in the post TCOL era to the benefit of both the TCoL tunz and the band's overall sound.

Any live Level 5 era shows and TPtB era shows are just killer.

[notallwhowander]

Not much to add, except to echo that once Pat added acoustic drums into the mix, the music seemed to really gel. "The ConstruKction of Light" on the Level 5 EP is phenomenal.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I was heavily into free improv on getting Thrakattak back in the day, and I found it dull as the Dulles bros.

Some of their improv pieces from the '73/74-rendition were ace, but this... No.

[GuitarGeek]

Yeah, I'm not that crazy about the electronic drums in this lineup (much preferred Bruford's Simmons drums during the 80's), but in general like this version of the band quite a bit.

I remember Fripp saying that he liked working with the electronic drums so much during the ProjeKcts era that he didn't want to go back to using acoustic drums. I think he liked the idea that the drums only had to be as loud as he wanted them in the monitors. I have the impression that sometimes, it's the drummer bashing away on a drumkit, trying to play as loud or as aggressively as possible (even when it's not really necessary) damages one's hearing as much as loud guitar amplifiers or monitors or PA.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I honestly don't "get" why people slag P@'s e-drums on TCoL/HC. They're an experiment, and like most experiments, have their good points and their bad points, but they seem to me to work for this music - especially the improvs.

[100423]

Maybe, a little; some of their studio work and Heavy ConstruKction sounds kind of cold and clinical to me while Level 5 is warmer. But there's also something, something I can't quite place, about P@t's drum sounds from Level 5 on that makes them less, well, annoying.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist).

[battema]

I'm a pretty big fan of the early 2000's Crimson, as well as the ProjeKcts.

IMHO the problem on TCoL wasn't the use of electronic drums exclusively -- they sounded just fine, massive even, on some of the ProjeKct tunes, like 'Seizure' from the Roar of P4 -- but rather just a not terribly great production overall. Power To Believe was a much stronger offering in terms of sound quality.

Live, those songs were monsters, especially Larks' IV. And none of the recordings like Heavy ConstruKction captured just how intense their electronic improvs were in concert.

IMHO, YMMV, and all that jazz of course

[JAMOOL]

always thought Heavy Construkction was one of their best live albums. thought all the TCOL stuff came off much better live. the Disc 3 improvs were excellent too. outside of audio evidence of Fripp nabbing some dude's camera

Thrakattak I haven't heard in years but I remember it kinda sucked. Something about the double trio didn't quite work as an improv unit - almost felt like everyone was afraid to 'take the lead' because there were so many people in the band. Plus you got Belew's "piano guitar" which I imagine was more entertaining in person

[notallwhowander]

I don't mean to pin everything on Pat's drums. For me, the shift is just an audio marker of when the band began firing on all cylinders.

[bigjohnwayne]

I usually hate electric drums. I even dock points off of Absent Lovers due to Bruford's e-drums.


I don't mind the electric drums on Heavy Construkction though. If I notice they are digital, they sound like loops or something and don't fall into the "uncanny gap" that electric drums fall in when you try to play them exactly as if they are acoustic.

To get the subject off virtual drums, ccccSeizurecc is awesome on Disc 3.

[battema]

I usually hate electric drums. I even dock points off of Absent Lovers due to Bruford's e-drums.


I don't mind the electric drums on Heavy Construkction though. If I notice they are digital, they sound like loops or something and don't fall into the "uncanny gap" that electric drums fall in when you try to play them exactly as if they are acoustic.

To get the subject off virtual drums, ccccSeizurecc is awesome on Disc 3.

Have you heard the Seizure version on Roar of P4? It was I think the first, and is still the best IMHO.

[GuitarGeek]

I usually hate electric drums. I even dock points off of Absent Lovers due to Bruford's e-drums.

See, I much prefer the sound of the Simmons SDS-V (which is what Bruford used on the Discipline and Beat tours) and SDS-7 (which is what he on the Three Of A Perfect Pair tour. Also, Bruford's drum kit was a hybrid of acoustic and Simmons drums. He both acoustic and Simmons snare and bass drums, and I think he might have done the same with the tom-toms, so at any given time he could alternate between the acoustic and electronic sounds. About the only time he went all electronic during that era was when he was on things like the first part of Waiting Man (which is all Simmons drums) or on the Three Of A Perfect Pair tour, when he'd stand up and play the drum pads that were mounted vertically behind him (an idea he'd expand on the ABWH and Union tours).

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Maybe, a little; some of their studio work and Heavy ConstruKction sounds kind of cold and clinical to me while Level 5 is warmer. But there's also something, something I can't quite place, about P@t's drum sounds from Level 5 on that makes them less, well, annoying.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist).

Fair enough.

[bigjohnwayne]

Have you heard the Seizure version on Roar of P4? It was I think the first, and is still the best IMHO.

I've never heard a note of the Projekcts stuff. Even contemplating which ones are worth a listen is daunting.

[notallwhowander]

I think P3 & P4 come closest to the Heavy Construction experience.

[Kcrimso]

Heavy ConstruKction and THraKaTTaK are both great. Very interesting improvisations.

[battema]

I've never heard a note of the Projekcts stuff. Even contemplating which ones are worth a listen is daunting.

Like NotAll, I think P3 and P4 best foreshadowed what was to come. I personally think the KCCC release 'Roar of P4' was even more powerful than what was eventually officially/commercially released as the ProjeKcts box. Seizure in particular, with dual Stick/Warr instead of Warr + guitar, and Mastelotto just destroying his drums...monstrous.

If you have a fondness for ThraKAttacK, P1 is pretty cool.

I appreciate the idea of P2, but think it was vastly weaker than anything before or after.

[bigjohnwayne]

Bringing a dead thread back to life for the sole and express purpose of saying:

1. I got a mint copy of the Projekcts set for 40 bucks and feel damn proud about it.

2. These four discs are really good. I even like Projekct 2, which people tend to say is the weakest. This stuff is like the best of the 2000 improvs. I guess I will have to get the Roar of P4 (great title, even if I'm sure it was partly ironic).

[bigjohnwayne]

One thing I find interesting and have never heard anyone else say: The Projekcts are the only King Crimson (if you consider it Crimso) where Fripp is THE featured guitar soloist between '74 and '14. That's probably reductionist of me to say, as he did get his licks in even in the Discipline years, where it seemed that giving Belew the solo spotlight was part of the concept, but I love listening to Fripp do his thing on these records.