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Thread: In The Wake Of Poseidon: Why is it considered such a step down from the debut?

  1. #26
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    I have this album. Been many years since I've played it. I like it overall, although I'm not a huge KC fan.

  2. #27
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    Personally I think the band lost some momentum for a few years, starting with this album- I'm not fond of 'Lizard' and 'Islands' either, finding both very 'bitty'.

    It's considered a 'step down' because, whilst not bad by any means, the first side is very similar to the first side on the debut. The production is better though IMHO, so it's a technical improvement.

    The 2nd side I find more interesting.

  3. #28
    Excellent album, similar in spots, but had some killer moments.
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  4. #29
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80s were ok View Post
    I dunno- sounds like you just have an opinion and just assume the rest of the prog world is on board with you....
    Does it? Really? Re-read my initial post. I like Poseidon better. Seems to me you just read thread titles and rush to respond to them.
    Last edited by Progatron; 02-10-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Well I love the debut but Poseidon is worthy on its own merits.
    They both great albums. ITCOKC is thier milestone album, while ITWOP isn't - that meant a different "success" story, and usually the comparison between these is limited to sides a on both albums. I rank Pictures as a better song than Schizoid, better sounding, better performed, better written, the soft ballads pair Cadence - Talk To The Wind I think is quite equal, and though Epitaph is a masterpiece, Poseidon is more mysterious song in a way. About the sides b, it's no use to oppose them - to be fair, Triangle cannot be regarded as a "step down", for it was a step onwards indeed.

  6. #31
    I always thought repeating the "formula" of the first album on side one was Fripp's way of making clear just how innovative Crimson's approach was to the three compositional approaches featured. One might call these the "Rocker," the breezy "Hippie Song," and the "Epic." All three took on very unique characteristics under Crimson's tutelage.

    But I disagree with the premise of this thread, as it's news to me that it is considered "a huge step down."
    Last edited by JeffCarney; 02-10-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I always thought repeating the "formula" of the first album on side one was Fripp's way of making clear just how innovative Crimson's approach was to the three compositional approaches featured. One might call these the "Rocker," the breezy "Hippie Song," and the "Epic." All three took on very unique characteristics under Crimson's tutelage.

    But I disagree with the premise of this thread, as it's news to me that it is considered "a huge step down."
    Could not agree with you more regarding your last sentence Jeff.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    it's news to me that it is considered "a huge step down."
    News to me too. I never said 'huge'.

    Look, let's assume the Progarchives scores represent a reasonable cross-section of prog fandom. (NOTE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO POUNCE ON THAT - I AM USING *ONE* EXAMPLE) - The first two KC releases have thousands of ratings. Crimson King is a remarkable 4.58/5.00, Poseidon is 3.78/5.00. A respectable score indeed, but clearly a 'step down'. (FURTHER NOTE TO THOSE WHO CAN'T READ OR COMPREHEND: *MY* PREFERENCE IS POSEIDON - *I* AM NOT SAYING IT IS A STEP DOWN. I AM ASKING WHY YOU THINK SO MANY OTHERS THINK IT IS.)

    Thanks to most of you for the responses.
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  9. #34
    Listened to some samples on Youtube and it sounds to me like the next King Crimson album to buy.

  10. #35
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    *I* AM NOT SAYING IT IS A STEP DOWN. I AM ASKING WHY YOU THINK SO MANY OTHERS THINK IT IS.
    Well, most who think that it's "step down" point to its obvious similarities to the epochal, cherry-poppin' Court and suggest/conclude that it's "lesser" as a result, that it's derivative and formulaic rather than a "progressive" step forward.....
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Listened to some samples on Youtube and it sounds to me like the next King Crimson album to buy.
    Excellent. Enjoy.


    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    Well, most who think that it's "step down" point to its obvious similarities to the epochal, cherry-poppin' Court and suggest/conclude that it's "lesser" as a result, that it's derivative and formulaic rather than a "progressive" step forward.....
    Yes. I think what it really comes down to for me, as I mentioned earlier, is that while there are clear similarities, I just happen to prefer the second batch of songs to the first. Not to suggest that the debut isn't stellar - it is.
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  12. #37
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    News to me too. I never said 'huge'.

    Look, let's assume the Progarchives scores represent a reasonable cross-section of prog fandom. (NOTE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO POUNCE ON THAT - I AM USING *ONE* EXAMPLE) - The first two KC releases have thousands of ratings. Crimson King is a remarkable 4.58/5.00, Poseidon is 3.78/5.00. A respectable score indeed, but clearly a 'step down'. (FURTHER NOTE TO THOSE WHO CAN'T READ OR COMPREHEND: *MY* PREFERENCE IS POSEIDON - *I* AM NOT SAYING IT IS A STEP DOWN. I AM ASKING WHY YOU THINK SO MANY OTHERS THINK IT IS.)

    Thanks to most of you for the responses.
    Gnosis has Court at 12.95/15 & Poseidon at 11.57/15

    Rate Your Music has Court at 4.30/5 & Poseidon as 3.71/5

    So I think your premise is accurate ever if we don't agree with it.
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  13. #38
    My bad. It appears the premise is reasoned. Apologies also for adding the word "huge" without checking the thread's title.

    But I haven't noticed that attitude here. In fact, it seems like quite a few folks find Wake to be the superior album. I don't agree with that either.
    Last edited by JeffCarney; 02-10-2013 at 04:46 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I haven't noticed that attitude here. In fact, it seems like quite a few folks find Wake to be the superior album.
    Yes, I admit to being surprised at that as well. I thought for sure I was in the minority. Perhaps I am, but it's not as wide a gap as I initially thought.

    Anyone else get a hankering to put this one on?
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post

    Anyone else get a hankering to put this one on?
    Listened to it today. Skipped "Devil's Triangle." Not sure why folks are claiming it sounds better than the first. Giles' drums on ITCOTCK are so crisp. They're a lot muddier on Poseidon. Oh well. Different preferences, I guess.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregory View Post
    They both great albums. ITCOKC is thier milestone album, while ITWOP isn't - that meant a different "success" story, and usually the comparison between these is limited to sides a on both albums. I rank Pictures as a better song than Schizoid, better sounding, better performed, better written, the soft ballads pair Cadence - Talk To The Wind I think is quite equal, and though Epitaph is a masterpiece, Poseidon is more mysterious song in a way. About the sides b, it's no use to oppose them - to be fair, Triangle cannot be regarded as a "step down", for it was a step onwards indeed.

    Yep. I think because "court" came out first it gets praised more but both albums are great. They are certainly comparable(because of side one on both albums)but the varied lineup because it was transitional is one thing that sets "Wake" apart from "Court."

    Also, I think ITWOP is when KC started to veer into more experimental and avant garde territories with "the devil's triangle." On first listen it seems to be a mess but eventually one realizes that it's chaos actually serves a purpose as to opposed to being just a pointless noise. Someone explained it to me as a sort of "breaking down of the music." Sort of like a deliberately decomposed composition if you will. I actually like it more than most of their improvs.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    Listened to it today. Skipped "Devil's Triangle." Not sure why folks are claiming it sounds better than the first. Giles' drums on ITCOTCK are so crisp. They're a lot muddier on Poseidon. Oh well. Different preferences, I guess.
    Well, I don't know about the actual sound and production, I just think the album as a whole has a real dark and mysterious vibe ("Cat Food" notwithstanding) - it just appeals to me more, in the same way that A Passion Play appeals to me more than Thick As A Brick, for one example.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    I don't like it.

    Nothing baffling about that. If you need a reason, I think it's boring, overlong and doesn't go anywhere--though I do like the sample of the "In the Court of the Crimson King" vocal toward the end.

    .
    I wasn't replying to you, but to mogrooves, who I'm assuming liked the live Mars. Just because a band had already played something live first is no reason to avoid recording it in a studio. As to being boring, its a matter of taste. Other than the long, "silent" intro, I think its a very cool piece. I solved the silence part by having the track start at the 45 second mark when I play it on iTunes and my iPod. Now it starts right up!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    If that seems strange, then how strange is it that they didn't record "Mantra" and "Travel Weary Capricorn" or "Drop In"? Or if they were just going to record a cover, albeit with out-there moments, why not do "Get Thy Bearings"?
    Maybe it is strange as well. Obviously they liked what they did with Mars, certainly enough that they essentially did the same thing with a few twists on their 2nd album.

  20. #45
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    I never felt Poseidon was a step down really. Like the title track (In the Wake of Poseidon) probably better than anything on the first one. But I also think the first two tracks on Court are better than the first two(excluding the very short peace intro) on Poseidon. Always thought 'The Devils Triangle' and 'Peace an End' were pretty cool.

  21. #46
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    The debut is an utter classic. Its an album that should be in every rock music fan's collection, if you ask me. Poseidon, though not nearly as classic, is still a great (yet uneven) album. To extent, I get the 'clone' comment. Pictures of a City is pretty much arranged the same as Schizoid man, but in many ways, its actually more complex and just as exciting. I, for one, enjoy it. Much like the debut, its followed by a pastoral acoustic tune ("Cadence and Cascade"), before leading into the dramatic and mellotron soaked title track, which though somewhat resembling Epitaph, has a real atmosphere of its own. After that, the format changes. Cat Food is entirely different from anything Crimson ever did, as is The Devil's Triangle which is a really unique and truly frightening piece of music. Still, I'm not taking into account the "Peace" interludes. Its a mixed bag, but its an enjoyable one if you are looking for more from the Crimson that made In The Court. Think I'll go put it on now...

  22. #47
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROGMONSTER View Post
    Poseidon is a better album. Better songs, better sound, more variety.
    I think it's a more coherent album, but the debut has some much stronger songs. I don't think anything on Poseidon beats "21st Century Schizoid Man" or "Epitaph."

    I'm in with the "lateral move" camp.

    BTW the McDonald & Giles album is every bit the successor to ItCotCK, as In the Wake of Poseidon. It's a stunning album, if you've never heard it.
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  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    I
    BTW the McDonald & Giles album is every bit the successor to ItCotCK, as In the Wake of Poseidon. It's a stunning album, if you've never heard it.
    I'm not sure how anyone who has heard The Beatles could be all that "stunned" by McDonald & Giles.

    I like the album fine, but man it is Beatlesy ...

  24. #49
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    It's Beatlely, but it is still chock full of gorgeous noise... and The Beatles never had Michael Giles on drums!

    It's also very Crimsony, though it has more of a Beatle-ish optimism replacing that Crimson-ish pessimism.
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  25. #50
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    Does it have flutes by Ian McDonald?

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