Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ... 131920212223
Results 551 to 574 of 574

Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (For those who have seen it - SPOILERS abound!)

  1. #551
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Near Philly, PA
    Posts
    6,583
    That was a good read, aith. Thanks for posting.

    He hits upon a point that I really didn't think about - although they addressed Luke thinking about killing Kylo Ren, they really didn't flesh out enough of Luke's history to demonstrate why he's such a curmudgeon now, IMO. They could have cut some of the Rose/Finn stuff and spent 5-10 minutes expanding on that.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  2. #552
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    I think they spelled out pretty clearly that Luke exiled himself "to the place farthest from anywhere" because he felt the Jedi had lost not only all the battles recently, but they'd the war. Everything they'd tried to do was a failure. Lots of people got killed for no reason. His "pathetic Jedi religion" was in serious decline.

    Once you're been proven to be utterly wrong and unpopular, you can either give up your ideals -- or go into hiding.

  3. #553
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Coastal California
    Posts
    799
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    An essay written by Joseph Gordon-Levitt, that I found pretty interesting.

    https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-n...r-253efda3809c

    I appreciated his take on it.
    Rian Johnson directed Brick and Looper!? How did I miss this? Those are both great flicks!
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  4. #554
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Good and bad iconography reduced to its most-obvious one dimensionality for consumption by viewers who aren't intellectually provisioned to distinguish any shades of gray or ambiguity... um yeah. It works.
    this type of iconography is prevalent throughout movies and is not exactly a "low intelligence" thing. Movies are escapism, after all. Sometimes, people who are very intelligent do not want to sift through elaborate shades of grey when watching movies.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  5. #555
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    That was a good read, aith. Thanks for posting.

    He hits upon a point that I really didn't think about - although they addressed Luke thinking about killing Kylo Ren, they really didn't flesh out enough of Luke's history to demonstrate why he's such a curmudgeon now, IMO. They could have cut some of the Rose/Finn stuff and spent 5-10 minutes expanding on that.
    They did a LOT of that. There are books and other items that address other characters and plots, even older ones that people used as "canon" until the possessors of the franchise deemed the bulk of them as "not canon" and approved a whole bunch of new "canon". The troubling thing about all of these other peripheral items is the films in the sequels seem to rely heavily on them. I never read these books. I stopped watching Star Wars after The Phantom Menace and never read these books. I think it is a huge mistake to assume the people coming into a film will either run out and grab the books in order to flesh out a character that was not fleshed out in the film, or that the audience is familiar with what's in the books. Even if everybody who went to the movies did read the books, there should be more references to the things in the books in terms of character development than telling us in dialogue: "Vice Admiral Holdo-hero of such and such battle". And yes, that bothered me, as she is the prime example of this.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  6. #556
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Coastal California
    Posts
    799
    You know, both Brick and Looper shows that Johnson can write a screenplay that is both complex and concise. Even though it is his name alone on the byline, TLJ reeks of too many cooks in the soup.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  7. #557
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Near Philly, PA
    Posts
    6,583
    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    They did a LOT of that. There are books and other items that address other characters and plots, even older ones that people used as "canon" until the possessors of the franchise deemed the bulk of them as "not canon" and approved a whole bunch of new "canon". The troubling thing about all of these other peripheral items is the films in the sequels seem to rely heavily on them. I never read these books. I stopped watching Star Wars after The Phantom Menace and never read these books. I think it is a huge mistake to assume the people coming into a film will either run out and grab the books in order to flesh out a character that was not fleshed out in the film, or that the audience is familiar with what's in the books. Even if everybody who went to the movies did read the books, there should be more references to the things in the books in terms of character development than telling us in dialogue: "Vice Admiral Holdo-hero of such and such battle". And yes, that bothered me, as she is the prime example of this.
    Right. Exactly. I was vaguely aware of the Luke's "history" from reading some stuff on the Internet, but I was hoping that it would be addressed better in the film.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  8. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    You know, both Brick and Looper shows that Johnson can write a screenplay that is both complex and concise. Even though it is his name alone on the byline, TLJ reeks of too many cooks in the soup.
    Brick and Looper were both great movies. But I don't agree about the "too many cooks" thing with TLJ. Just based on all the accounts out there about its production, I don't believe there was much (if any) studio intervention at all -- which is quite possibly why it was so divisive among certain fans, because it didn't conform to their expectations the way a movie like Rogue One did. Some people probably liked that about it, while others evidently didn't.

    However, I am curious how it seemed like a too many cooks situation to you, if you don't mind elaborating.

  9. #559
    Member dropforge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,857
    I think the biggest culprit is the entire episode on that planet with the casino antics, those kids, and the goofy horse-camels. It gave off a nastily prequel odor.

  10. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by dropforge View Post
    I think the biggest culprit is the entire episode on that planet with the casino antics, those kids, and the goofy horse-camels. It gave off a nastily prequel odor.
    That was the only part of the movie I didn't really care for, although I didn't hate it either. But even so, the prequels were the product of one guy's vision and not a committee.

  11. #561
    Took my dad to see The Last Jedi a few nights ago and he really liked it. Said he enjoyed it better than The Force Awakens, in large part due to Kylo Ren’s characterization as a conflicted villain. He was sad watching it though, seeing Carrie Fisher in it and knowing she’s gone.

    He was 17 when A New Hope came out and he remarked on how he can still remember the way the sky looked as he was leaving the theater, and the direction his car was pointed in the parking lot. It left a lasting impression since it wasn’t like anything else at the time. Given all that, I was really interested in how he’d react to TLJ.

  12. #562
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    I wasn't 17 when ANH came out, I was 23 -- but similar to your dad I left the theater feeling really changed. My car seemed to GLIDE over the roadway, its acceleration seemed boundless. I was dazzled by the sheer size of the spaceships in SW which seemingly filled the sky, I was in love with a whole new cast of iconic characters.

    This feeling lasted for about six to ten hours.

    But I still remember being thrust into a different world, that's for sure.

  13. #563
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    South Hadley, MA
    Posts
    2,663
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Took my dad to see The Last Jedi a few nights ago and he really liked it. Said he enjoyed it better than The Force Awakens, in large part due to Kylo Ren’s characterization as a conflicted villain. He was sad watching it though, seeing Carrie Fisher in it and knowing she’s gone.
    Me too about Carrie. Interesting about Kylo Ren. Even with his embracing of the dark side, he still seems to have potential and a certain "morality" to him that the other evil cardboard cutouts lack. You could almost see him and Rey ruling the galaxy. Maybe that wouldn't be so bad. Is that nuts?

    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    He was 17 when A New Hope came out and he remarked on how he can still remember the way the sky looked as he was leaving the theater, and the direction his car was pointed in the parking lot. It left a lasting impression since it wasn’t like anything else at the time. Given all that, I was really interested in how he’d react to TLJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I wasn't 17 when ANH came out, I was 23 -- but similar to your dad I left the theater feeling really changed. My car seemed to GLIDE over the roadway, its acceleration seemed boundless. I was dazzled by the sheer size of the spaceships in SW which seemingly filled the sky, I was in love with a whole new cast of iconic characters.

    This feeling lasted for about six to ten hours.

    But I still remember being thrust into a different world, that's for sure.
    Great stories!

    I was 14 when ANH came out. My dad, who was a professor at UMass, was visiting SUNY Albany for some talk or conference. So we all had an exciting vacation to Albany. Not surprisingly, we found ourselves in the hotel with jack-all to do in the evening. But literally 100 yards away was a theater showing Star Wars, so we decided to go.

    I can picture that movie theater/hotel parking lot while we walked back to this day. My mom, dad and I were in some trance-like state afterward. It's a great memory. The original Star Wars is an amazing achievement, groundbreaking in so many ways.

    Bill

  14. #564
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Coastal California
    Posts
    799
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    However, I am curious how it seemed like a too many cooks situation to you, if you don't mind elaborating.
    My experience was there was three film's worth of plot happening in one over-long film. The whole enterprise could have used judicious editing, IMO, pair out some story lines, and allow a few to be fully developed in this film, and the rest be fully developed in the next movie, etc. For instance, Rey's hero's journey was frustratingly truncated, to the point that she was more objectified than subjectified. Also, the casino planet, if anything, was a rushed affair that precluded any real emotional attachments or personal character arcs, and wound up being a series of chase scenes with only a few nods towards character development given as quick, occasional exposition. Snoke is another example of this. What was his story? Not enough time, because too many others things were happening.

    This underlying issue wasn't there in Brick or Looper.

    I tend to think if there is too much happening, it is because one person doesn't have the authority, or finds it isn't politic, to cut anything out. There doesn't have to be any big studio incursion, if you're an agreeable chap trying to include every note handed to you. Maybe this isn't what happened. This guy is capable to better screenwriting, so I wonder what did.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  15. #565
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    South Hadley, MA
    Posts
    2,663
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    My experience was there was three film's worth of plot happening in one over-long film. The whole enterprise could have used judicious editing, IMO, pair out some story lines, and allow a few to be fully developed in this film, and the rest be fully developed in the next movie, etc. For instance, Rey's hero's journey was frustratingly truncated, to the point that she was more objectified than subjectified. Also, the casino planet, if anything, was a rushed affair that precluded any real emotional attachments or personal character arcs, and wound up being a series of chase scenes with only a few nods towards character development given as quick, occasional exposition. Snoke is another example of this. What was his story? Not enough time, because too many others things were happening.
    I think that'a pretty good summary, and for me it particularly impacted the Snoke character. But I think your points on all of these sub-plots are good. It didn't bother me at the time, because for a 2 1/2 hour film I thought the pacing was excellent. But like I said, when I got to the car, it started falling apart a bit for me. And I think this is the root of it, just not enough development of some major sub-plots, or even one could argue the main plot.

    I have no clue as to the cause. I also saw Brick and Looper and thought both were excellent. Still didn't hate it, but agree it could have been better if tightened up.

    Bill

  16. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    My experience was there was three film's worth of plot happening in one over-long film. The whole enterprise could have used judicious editing, IMO, pair out some story lines, and allow a few to be fully developed in this film, and the rest be fully developed in the next movie, etc. For instance, Rey's hero's journey was frustratingly truncated, to the point that she was more objectified than subjectified. Also, the casino planet, if anything, was a rushed affair that precluded any real emotional attachments or personal character arcs, and wound up being a series of chase scenes with only a few nods towards character development given as quick, occasional exposition. Snoke is another example of this. What was his story? Not enough time, because too many others things were happening.

    This underlying issue wasn't there in Brick or Looper.

    I tend to think if there is too much happening, it is because one person doesn't have the authority, or finds it isn't politic, to cut anything out. There doesn't have to be any big studio incursion, if you're an agreeable chap trying to include every note handed to you. Maybe this isn't what happened. This guy is capable to better screenwriting, so I wonder what did.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you on most of those points. I still loved the movie, but it wasn't perfect. And the initial cut was something like 3 hours, so Rian Johnson edited out a fair bit of stuff already.

    However, regarding Snoke, I would posit that these movies were never about him. Much like the Emperor in the original trilogy, for better or worse he was primarily there as a plot device. If anything, killing him off in the second movie makes the third one less predictable because if Snoke survived as the big bad into the third movie you pretty much know he'd have to die by the end. But with Kylo as the new Supreme Leader, there's enough uncertainty with his character that it could go a few different ways (he could stay evil and die, turn good and live, sacrifice himself as redemption, etc.).

  17. #567
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    The Emperor and Snoke (and Darth) were all horribly disfigured. You KNEW Kylo Ben Solo was redeemable because he healed his facial scar.

    Come on people, this is WWF stuff here, hardly subtle.

  18. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The Emperor and Snoke (and Darth) were all horribly disfigured. You KNEW Kylo Ben Solo was redeemable because he healed his facial scar.

    Come on people, this is WWF stuff here, hardly subtle.


    I disagree. Honestly, I don't believe Kylo is redeemable -- but that's just my opinion, and I'm open to other possibilities for his character's path. He still has the facial scar though. And Vader, while horribly disfigured, still had that last-minute act of heroism by saving Luke and killing the Emperor.

    Growing up I always thought that the Emperor looked disfigured and/or withered because he was incredibly old and being kept alive unnaturally longer by the Dark Side, or that the Dark Side was eating away at him. Then the prequels came along and proved me wrong apparently.

    But I kinda think the same thing about Snoke, that he has been so deep into the Dark Side of the force for so long that it's corrupting him physically. Kylo hasn't been in it long enough for those effects to take place yet.

  19. #569
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by dropforge View Post
    I think the biggest culprit is the entire episode on that planet with the casino antics, those kids, and the goofy horse-camels. It gave off a nastily prequel odor.

    it was as useless as 90% of the pod race or JarJar in the Phantom Menace
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  20. #570
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The Emperor and Snoke (and Darth) were all horribly disfigured. You KNEW Kylo Ben Solo was redeemable because he healed his facial scar.

    Come on people, this is WWF stuff here, hardly subtle.
    the reason it is "WWF stuff" is because the stark contrast of good vs evil is pretty much a common motif (theme? concept?). you could compare Star Wars to old school comic books, westerns or even Gem and the Holograms because there are the clear lines of demarcation between the good guys and the bad guys. I don't mind these things because it comes with the territory of these sorts of stories and you do not need to reinvent the wheel to make an entertaining movie. It's mindless fun, but technical issues such as lazy storytelling and flat characters gnaw on my ass big time.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  21. #571
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    ...but technical issues such as lazy storytelling and flat characters gnaw on my ass big time.
    I suspect it's not so much "laziness" as Disneyfication and management by committee.

    And TFA was worse than TLJ for that. Although TLJ had more WTF moments.

  22. #572
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I suspect it's not so much "laziness" as Disneyfication and management by committee.

    And TFA was worse than TLJ for that. Although TLJ had more WTF moments.
    TLJ has the Luke and Rey story, which is wonderfully surreal and represents the young idealistic Jedi vs the disillusioned master. There is a lot more they could have explored there. Then you have Kylo Ren, Poe and what amounts to a bunch of cinematic fuckery. It is easy to blame Disney, but Lucas was also prancing around with this nonsense, arguably on a far worse scale than Disney. There were two different factions on this movie: the mystical Jedi people and the human equivalents of meth addled squirrels.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  23. #573
    Member dropforge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,857
    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    it was as useless as the pod race or JarJar in the Phantom Menace
    Fixed.

  24. #574
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Durham NC
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by dropforge View Post
    Fixed.
    An aside on that-they had this interesting little alien called a Dug, whose name is Sebulba. He is actually a cool looking alien and apparently the character itsef was based on Dick Dastardly and Terry-Thomas's villain in the 1960's race film (such as Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying machines). I liked him so much that the initial concept of an alien race I have called the Tychor was based on Sebulba (the Tychor rapidly evolved into something more complex, heroic and Jedi like). Again, though-before there is any fleshing out of Sebulba, he gets scrambled in the pod race. So, I come upon a Star Wars alien guide and look up the Dug-and it describs them as violent and stupid. Apparently, this was an entire alien race created to be stereotyped...
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •