CTI Records

[rcarlberg]

Not on CTI, but I've transitioned into listening to some Quincy Jones albums this morning. Q's orchestrations were very similar to Don Sebesky's -- even down to occasionally(often?) including deal-killing vocals. But his "Gula Matari" (1970) and "Walking In Space" (1969) are wonderful examples of arranging for a large ensemble (with apparently unlimited budget). He took the lessons learned throughout the '40s and '50s by big band arrangers like Duke Ellington and Gil Evans, and applied them to a more 1970s sound of electric guitar & bass. Brass choruses, exotic instruments (marimbas, harps and bassoons) and a core of piano/bass/drums make these tracks very pleasurable to listen to.

[wideopenears]

Some great ones mentioned. Benson's "Body Talk" has been a fave of mine for a long time.

[wideopenears]

the ones I own:

Jobim-Wave, Stone Flower, Tide
Airto-Virgin Land, Free, Fingers
Ron Carter-Blues Farm, Yellow and Green, All Blues
Grover Washington-A Secret Place, Feels so Good, Inner City Blues
Stanley Turrentine-Salt Song, Sugar
Walter Wanderley-When it was done
Fuse One-Silk
Deodato-Prelude, Deodato II
Freddie Hubbard-Straight Life, Red Clay, First Light, Polar AC, Sky Dive
Bill Evans-Montreux II
Benson-body Talk, White Rabbit, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Benson and Farrell, Good King Bad, Bad Benson, The Other Side of Abbey Road, Shape of Things to Come
Joe Farrell-Outback, Moon Germs, Canned Funk
Milt Jackson-Sunflower
Jim Hall-Concierto
Holdsworth-Velvet Darkness
Nascimento-Courage

so.....yeah, a few........LOL

EDIT: oh, some of those are Kudu, too....can't forget Grover's Mister Magic.

[rcarlberg]

Fuse One-Silk

What's this like?

[wideopenears]

What's this like?

Wynton plays some fusion-ish fairly smooth stuff!

LOL, actually I recall enjoying this quite a bit, but haven't listened to it in a while...I own it on vinyl. I have the first one too, which I rate as better. It is CTI stuff, you know.....it's got less "smooth and syrupy" traits, though, overall, and is more of a soul-jazz sort of thing. Both albums. I think there may have been a third, as well....

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Benson-body Talk, White Rabbit, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Benson and Farrell, Good King Bad, Bad Benson, The Other Side of Abbey Road, Shape of Things to Come
Joe Farrell-Outback, Moon Germs, Canned Funk
Milt Jackson-Sunflower
Jim Hall-Concierto
Holdsworth-Velvet Darkness

all good to great albums!

Milt Jackson's Olinga is also worthy
also I forgot to quote Hubbard's Red Clay as one of the good ones
not familiar with any of the others beside the Deodato which is a bit too slick for me

[jkelman]

Joe Farrell...Quartet , Outback & Moongerms
Jim Hall - Concierto (that's his album, rc, not Desmond's )
CTI All stars - California Concert
Milt Jackson - Sunflower
Paul Desmond - Pure Desmond
Randy Weston - Blue Moses
Freddie Hubbard - Red Clay & First Light

[kid_runningfox]

I seem to recall Allan Holdsworth characterizing Creed Taylor as a total crook over Velvet Darkness; an album AH totally disowned. IIRC, AH was under the impression that the session from which the record was taken was little more than a routining rehearsal that allow the musicians to get the tunes under their fingers, and that proper recording session would proceed from there. Indeed, that thinking probably explains where there's actually so little guitar on it. He was horrified when it was released as the finished product, and I believe he also never saw any money from it. I have no idea if this typifies Creed Taylor's business practices, or if what happened was the result of a genuine misunderstanding, but it takes something pretty extraordinary to have an artist beg his audience not buy one of his records.

[rcarlberg]

I seem to recall Allan Holdsworth characterizing Creed Taylor as a total crook over Velvet Darkness; an album AH totally disowned. IIRC, AH was under the impression that the session from which the record was taken was little more than a routining rehearsal that allow the musicians to get the tunes under their fingers, and that proper recording session would proceed from there. Indeed, that thinking probably explains where there's actually so little guitar on it. He was horrified when it was released as the finished product, and I believe he also never saw any money from it. I have no idea if this typifies Creed Taylor's business practices, or if what happened was the result of a genuine misunderstanding, but it takes something pretty extraordinary to have an artist beg his audience not buy one of his records.

That's NOT the only Holdsworth record where he claimed "he wasn't ready yet." Seemed to be a habit with him, when he felt the playing was substandard.

[kid_runningfox]

That's NOT the only Holdsworth record where he claimed "he wasn't ready yet." Seemed to be a habit with him, when he felt the playing was substandard.

It was rather more than the playing being substandard in this case...

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

That's NOT the only Holdsworth record where he claimed "he wasn't ready yet." Seemed to be a habit with him, when he felt the playing was substandard.

I used to read Holdsy's interviews a lot and he was never happy with any album he made. He was a perfectionist and a genius and had the mental issues that go with those qualities. Still love him!

[Trane]

Well most of us are +/- fairly unanimous, depending on how much we've heard of the CTi roster and catalogue...

BUT:


So far, I believe I'm the only one that mentioned Bob James (an I the only one to know of him >> he'd go on producing albums later), but at least his first two albums are total classics

[rcarlberg]

Bob James played Rhodes on most of the CTI productions. His first 4 solos were indeed a lot more adventurous (as evidenced above) than the smooth jazz he later became known for.

Last summer I posted a thread about the (rare) albums he did playing straight-ahead jazz on normal acoustic piano. Not very well-known but excellent stuff.

[JJ88]

^I gather some of Bob James' early solo recordings are some of the most heavily-sampled of all time. 'Westchester Lady', 'Nautilus', 'Take Me To The Mardi Gras'. I think he did some of the arrangements for Karen Carpenter's ill-fated solo album, he certainly plays on it.

Don't have much CTI but like what I have such as Red Clay, Prelude etc.

[pb2015]

I used to read Holdsy's interviews a lot and he was never happy with any album he made. He was a perfectionist and a genius and had the mental issues that go with those qualities. Still love him!

From what I've read, he was especially unhappy with Velvet Darkness. One story is that when a fan asked him to sign the record, he tried to buy it back from him.

My guess is that he couldn't handle the standard approach of CTI (and most other jazz labels of the time) of having the artist spend at most one or two days in the studio and making that the record.

[calyx]

My guess is that he couldn't handle the standard approach of CTI (and most other jazz labels of the time) of having the artist spend at most one or two days in the studio and making that the record.

I would concur. Creed Taylor was used to dealing with "jazz players", where Holdsworth was a different beast, a living paradox - a musician defining himself as an improviser first, and a "jazz musician" by and large, but one who would spend insane amounts of time getting his solos perfectly right. I was witness to some of this during the sessions for the SoftWorks album, when he asked for his guitar tracks to be muted during playback (!), and ended up re-recording almost all his parts (certainly all his solos) at his studio back in California.

I would guess Taylor was taken aback when Holdsworth said something like, "OK, now I'll have to spend 4 days re-doing my solos" (or worse, and closer to AH's own version of the event, "we'll come back next week and do this all over again if you give us a full week in the studio"), whereas Taylor expected the album to be "in the can" with a couple of takes of each piece at most.

[mogrooves]

Ah, yes, Creed Taylor, once the most despised man in jazz.

I have a few:

George Benson - Beyond the Blue Horizon
Joe Farrell - Quartet
Joe Farrell - Outback
Jim Hall - Concierto
Idris Muhammad - Power of Soul
Jobim - Wave
Randy Weston - Blue Moses
Art Farmer/Jim Hall - Big Blues
Yusef Lateef - Autophysiopsychic

[rcarlberg]

My guess is that he couldn't handle the standard approach of CTI (and most other jazz labels of the time) of having the artist spend at most one or two days in the studio and making that the record.

Was that true of CTI? I know Blue Note and ECM were famous for having the musicians play live, in the studio, and what they recorded (with maybe one run-through first) was what went on the record.

With CTI that might've been harder. There was Don Sebesky's orchestrations on most of them -- or was that added later?

[pb2015]

With CTI that might've been harder. There was Don Sebesky's orchestrations on most of them -- or was that added later?

I think on the more elaborate ones the rhythm tracks were recorded one day, the orchestra another day and the soloist on another day. I remember a George Benson quote saying he didn't like recording those albums because he would have an orchestra playing in his headphones while he was sitting in the studio alone.

Freddie Hubbard's Red Clay was recorded in three days according to the credits on my CD.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Well most of us are +/- fairly unanimous, depending on how much we've heard of the CTi roster and catalogue...

BUT:


So far, I believe I'm the only one that mentioned Bob James (an I the only one to know of him >> he'd go on producing albums later), but at least his first two albums are total classics

wait... WHAT? ... I just listened to that Youtube and most of that album is real good!

I knew of all that syrupy Pop crap by Bob James and Earl Klugh (Feel Like Making Love on this one reminds me of that later garbage) but I never knew the guy did anything serious. What an oversight on my part. Gonna get his first 2 albums that you recommend. Thanks!

[Trane]

With CTI that might've been harder. There was Don Sebesky's orchestrations on most of them -- or was that added later?

don't know if they were recorded live or added afterwards, but they often added a major amount of cheese to the label's music.
I mean, some of those were almost embarrassing.

wait... WHAT? ... I just listened to that Youtube and most of that album is real good!
What an oversight on my part. Gonna get his first 2 albums that you recommend. Thanks!

my pleasure

[rcarlberg]

don't know if they were recorded live or added afterwards

The blasphemous thought occurred to me that perhaps the orchestrations were overlaid to "cover up" clams (missed notes) made by some of the ill-prepared session players. But I somehow doubt this, given the caliber of most of the players.

[rcarlberg]

Gonna get his first 2 albums that you recommend. Thanks!

The first 4 were released in a bargain-priced boxed set.


Also, for more recent (and EXCELLENT) serious stuff don't overlook these:

[pb2015]

The blasphemous thought occurred to me that perhaps the orchestrations were overlaid to "cover up" clams (missed notes) made by some of the ill-prepared session players. But I somehow doubt this, given the caliber of most of the players.

I think it was just a way to make it more appealing to a pop audience.

[FrippWire]

Try Bob James' album "Explosions" on ESP Disk. It's Bob James like you've never heard him before. Quite tasty.