B.I.H. Charles Manson

[rcarlberg]

Yes I know, but Manson was well aware of what his "family" was doing and ordered them to do it. Not to excuse McVeigh or anything (because he's pretty evil too) but there is some evidence that he was unaware there was a daycare center in the Murrow Federal Building.

FWIW my wife agrees with you that McVeigh is the more evil. It's an unwinnable contest.

the difference for me is the mindset of McVeigh that is shared by millions in this country.

To a lesser degree, thankfully.

[progeezer]

Either you can keep your shit together in our society or you can't and you act like Charlie, Timmy et al. There are NO quantitative/qualitative "mitigating circumstances, period.

[rcarlberg]

Reagan defunding the mental health industry didn't help certainly, nor do lax gun laws that allow unstable persons to amass arsenals of military-style weapons.

The NRA has decided that "this is the price we pay" for gun freedom, and Congress refuses to do what the vast majority of Americans want.... But I'm getting political, so I'll stop.

[ronmac]

I thought the LaBianca killings were somewhat of a case of mistaken identity? Weren't they expecting someone else to be living there? If so, it wasn't as random as some might think.

I could be mistaken here. But I thought I read that somewhere.

[ronmac]

Either you can keep your shit together in our society or you can't and you act like Charlie, Timmy et al. There are NO quantitative/qualitative "mitigating circumstances, period.

I don't buy this at all. It appears to ignore mental illness, trauma, environment and other legitimate circumstances. There's a lot more gray area in between the "either/or" suggestion.

[DocProgger]

I thought the LaBianca killings were somewhat of a case of mistaken identity? Weren't they expecting someone else to be living there? If so, it wasn't as random as some might think.

I could be mistaken here. But I thought I read that somewhere.

You may be thinking of the Tate killings where that house was where record producer Terry Melcher used to live and Manson may have thought Melcher (who rejected his demo) still lived there (see earlier post in this thread). I don't remember any previous connection with LaBianca house but its been awhile since I read Helter Skelter.

[ronmac]

You may be thinking of the Tate killings where that house was where record producer Terry Melcher used to live and Manson may have thought Melcher (who rejected his demo) still lived there (see earlier post in this thread). I don't remember any previous connection with LaBianca house but its been awhile since I read Helter Skelter.

Yes, you are correct.

[Jerjo]

I read a piece by a psychiatrist about sociopaths and psychopaths. He said he used to think that true psychopaths didn't exist, it was just various shades of sociopath. Then he interviewed Ted Bundy. Now Ted remains his prime example.

[Trane]

Just saw this thread

my 0.2 :

Will not shed a tear for this fucker, even if he wasn't in the crime scene at the crucial moment

However, one of his followers Bobby Beausoleil (also serving life) did one frigging amazing album in jail with his own-built instruments.

[rcarlberg]

In the late 1970s, with the permission of the prison, he composed and recorded the soundtrack for Kenneth Anger's film Lucifer Rising.

You sure about that "self-built instruments" part? Sounds like real drums, trumpet, guitar and keyboards to me, and if he had the prison's "permission" he might have had real instruments. Either way, yes, it's a surprisingly not-bad album.

[Trane]

You sure about that "self-built instruments" part? Sounds like real drums, trumpet, guitar and keyboards to me, and if he had the prison's "permission" he might have had real instruments. Either way, yes, it's a surprisingly not-bad album.

I read somewhere (maybe in the CD booklet) that he actually ordered the electronics parts and bits, piece by piece to built most of it, because the jail direction wouldn't have let him buy the whole instruments at once

[3LockBox]

I read somewhere (maybe in the CD booklet) that he actually ordered the electronics parts and bits, piece by piece to built most of it, because the jail direction wouldn't have let him buy the whole instruments at once

Probably tossed a few salads to get some of the parts too.

[Gruno]

Probably tossed a few salads to get some of the parts too.

Salads...

What was on top? Italian, Greek, or Creamy Ranch?

[progeezer]

I think it was Brown Goddess dressing.

[ronmac]

Creamy cucumber

[moecurlythanu]

History Channel, tonight and tomorrow night, 9 PM ET, a 2 part program that theorizes that the Manson Family was responsible for 2 unsolved murders and tries to prove it. Part 1 was interesting, and worth seeing if you have an interest in the time period or want deeper insight into the principals involved. They also speculate that the LaBiancas were not the intended target the night they were killed.

I would expect Part 1 will be re-aired before Part 2 runs.

[Dave (in MA)]

I keep seeing the thread title as B.J.H. Charles Manson.

[Rune Blackwings]

Manson did not do any of the actual stabbings or killings in the Tate-LaBianca murders. He was not even present at the scene at the time the murders were committed (he did go into LaBianca house beforehand and I think tied them up with Watson). He's still responsible as Bugliosi proved because he masterminded and ordered the killings, but did not stab a pregnant actress himself.
McVeigh purposefully and intentionally incinerated hundreds of innocent children for the purpose of starting a war against the US government and causing some right wing revolution. And he did not know his victims either--most mass murderers don't. And again, the difference for me is the mindset of McVeigh that is shared by millions in this country. That is pure evil to me.

I prefer not to play the "more evil than thou" game. People who say "well, Manson did not actually kill anyone" overlooks the fact that he did-he used others to carry out his murder-in other words, he created weapons out of humans and murdered when he ordered the deaths. Much like McVeigh, he could not bear to get his own hands bloodied. There was no difference between McVeigh using a bomb to blow up people and Manson using his "cult" to kill whoever he pointed at.

[DocProgger]

I prefer not to play the "more evil than thou" game. People who say "well, Manson did not actually kill anyone" overlooks the fact that he did-he used others to carry out his murder-in other words, he created weapons out of humans and murdered when he ordered the deaths. Much like McVeigh, he could not bear to get his own hands bloodied. There was no difference between McVeigh using a bomb to blow up people and Manson using his "cult" to kill whoever he pointed at.

Your post is inaccurate on several points. First of all, my post was a response to someone's earlier post that "how could someone be so evil as to stab a pregnant actress". I was merely pointing out that Manson himself did not actually stab Sharon Tate(Susan Atkins did). He probably didn't even know that Tate was in the house or that she was pregnant.(He picked the house because the record producer who turned down his record demo used to live there.).
If you read my post carefully, I never said "Manson never killed anyone". I said he didn't actually perform the murders in Tate LaBianca himself. He is thought to have killed several persons himself and is probably responsible for about 35 murders.

Most importantly I did not "overlook the fact that he used others to carry out his murders". In fact, I specifically said he did just that if you read my post carefully and my prior posts in this thread. I was not in any way excusing anything Manson did and absolutely believe he was properly convicted of all those murders. Wasn't making any excuses or giving him a get out of jail free card. So your attempt to imply that I somehow overlooked his role in masterminding these heinous murders is simply wrong.
McVeigh's crime imo is much more heinous and evil. He murdered many more people. He knowingly murdered many women and children at a day care center in the building. He was an American veteran who was given every advantage in life, trained by our own Army with my tax dollars, and decided to mass slaughter to make a political statement in the worst domestic terrorist crime ever. Manson was a throwaway outcast living on the fringe tossed aside by society with no advantages of the normal life McVeigh had. Both were murderers and evil we can both agree. But to me, the "normal" people living amongst us in society who think like McVeigh are much more dangerous.

And no the crimes were not "exactly the same" or "no different". One killed 168 people and injured over 600 others with a bomb which he himself detonated. The other was convicted of ordering and planning the stabbing and shooting of 8 people by others. To claim that those crimes were "no different" is silly and false, and insults the victims of the OK City terrorist bombing.

[Rune Blackwings]

Your post is inaccurate on several points. First of all, my post was a response to someone's earlier post that "how could someone be so evil as to stab a pregnant actress". I was merely pointing out that Manson himself did not actually stab Sharon Tate(Susan Atkins did). He probably didn't even know that Tate was in the house or that she was pregnant.(He picked the house because the record producer who turned down his record demo used to live there.).
If you read my post carefully, I never said "Manson never killed anyone". I said he didn't actually perform the murders in Tate LaBianca himself. He is thought to have killed several persons himself and is probably responsible for about 35 murders.

Most importantly I did not "overlook the fact that he used others to carry out his murders". In fact, I specifically said he did just that if you read my post carefully and my prior posts in this thread. I was not in any way excusing anything Manson did and absolutely believe he was properly convicted of all those murders. Wasn't making any excuses or giving him a get out of jail free card. So your attempt to imply that I somehow overlooked his role in masterminding these heinous murders is simply wrong.
McVeigh's crime imo is much more heinous and evil. He murdered many more people. He knowingly murdered many women and children at a day care center in the building. He was an American veteran who was given every advantage in life, trained by our own Army with my tax dollars, and decided to mass slaughter to make a political statement in the worst domestic terrorist crime ever. Manson was a throwaway outcast living on the fringe tossed aside by society with no advantages of the normal life McVeigh had. Both were murderers and evil we can both agree. But to me, the "normal" people living amongst us in society who think like McVeigh are much more dangerous.

And no the crimes were not "exactly the same" or "no different". One killed 168 people and injured over 600 others with a bomb which he himself detonated. The other was convicted of ordering and planning the stabbing and shooting of 8 people by others. To claim that those crimes were "no different" is silly and false, and insults the victims of the OK City terrorist bombing.

The "no different" refers to the fact both were perpetuated by evil people. There is no difference in evil at the level of which McVeigh and Manson committed their crimes. Manson may have not known Tate was there, but guaranteed, he did not weep over her or her dead unborn child.

The thing that bothers me most with Manson-he's considered a folk hero by certain individuals. He was a monster.

[DocProgger]

The "no different" refers to the fact both were perpetuated by evil people. There is no difference in evil at the level of which McVeigh and Manson committed their crimes. Manson may have not known Tate was there, but guaranteed, he did not weep over her or her dead unborn child.

The thing that bothers me most with Manson-he's considered a folk hero by certain individuals. He was a monster.

We both agree that both Manson and McVeigh were evil and monsters. We both agree that Manson should not be worshiped as a cult hero, and I sure hope that we both agree that McVeigh should not be admired or lauded as a cult hero. What concerns me is that there are millions of people in this country living among us that do regard McVeigh as some kind of heroic anti govt rebel.
There are gradations of crime. An armed robbery is punished more harshly than a speeding ticket. A mass murderer is punished more harshly than a bank robber. There are also degrees of evil culpability. To equate the mass murders of Jim Jones (800) or the terrorist mass murders of McVeigh with the killing of a few people or one person is simply false, even though they are all evil.

[SteveSly]

History Channel, tonight and tomorrow night, 9 PM ET, a 2 part program that theorizes that the Manson Family was responsible for 2 unsolved murders and tries to prove it. Part 1 was interesting, and worth seeing if you have an interest in the time period or want deeper insight into the principals involved. They also speculate that the LaBiancas were not the intended target the night they were killed.

I would expect Part 1 will be re-aired before Part 2 runs.

I would be interested in seeing this, will have to see if they repeat it and set my DVR (they usually do). I just recently finished reading Carl Wilson (The Beach Boys) fairly recent autobiography. He devotes two chapters to the relationship between Dennis Wilson and Charles Manson (and to a lesser extent the whole band). Carl says that Dennis claimed to have witnessed Manson murder a black man on the ranch and to his knowledge it was never was reported or discovered. Carl also claims that the LaBiancas were not the intended target, and the real target was someone who had previously lived in the house who was a music producer if I remember correctly.

[moecurlythanu]

Yeah, I think both houses were intended to hit targets who were in the music biz and had rejected the Manson demo, or at least weren't helpful enough in Charlie's eyes. Melcher at the Tate residence, and I don't recall who at the house next to the LaBiancas, vacant the night of the murders, and so...iirc. Charlie's "Helter Skelter" had a sizable dollop of revenge mixed in.

[Rune Blackwings]

We both agree that both Manson and McVeigh were evil and monsters. We both agree that Manson should not be worshiped as a cult hero, and I sure hope that we both agree that McVeigh should not be admired or lauded as a cult hero. What concerns me is that there are millions of people in this country living among us that do regard McVeigh as some kind of heroic anti govt rebel.
There are gradations of crime. An armed robbery is punished more harshly than a speeding ticket. A mass murderer is punished more harshly than a bank robber. There are also degrees of evil culpability. To equate the mass murders of Jim Jones (800) or the terrorist mass murders of McVeigh with the killing of a few people or one person is simply false, even though they are all evil.

Be rest assured I do not worship or admire McVeigh

[SteveSly]

Yeah, I think both houses were intended to hit targets who were in the music biz and had rejected the Manson demo, or at least weren't helpful enough in Charlie's eyes. Melcher at the Tate residence, and I don't recall who at the house next to the LaBiancas, vacant the night of the murders, and so...iirc. Charlie's "Helter Skelter" had a sizable dollop of revenge mixed in.

I think I got my facts mixed up. It was Melcher that Wilson talked about in his book who had previously lived in the Tate residence and not the LaBiancas.