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Thread: King Crimson Earthbound expanded release

  1. #26
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    Expanded? More of that mess?
    The Prog Corner

  2. #27
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    Expanded? More of that mess?
    Yes, but it will be in a new, highly fondle-able format.

  3. #28
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    Expanded? More of that mess?
    But in a way it's the mess that makes the album. The lofi sonics make Earthbound sound downright evil. I love it. The main danger of a remix is that they could make it sound like any other live album.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    But in a way it's the mess that makes the album. The lofi sonics make Earthbound sound downright evil. I love it. The main danger of a remix is that they could make it sound like any other live album.
    given how it was recorded I don't think we need to worry too much.

  6. #31
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    ^^^ I looked at the press release again and noticed that there is in fact no promise of a remix or even remastering. It is just "expanded". So, yeah, we have nothing to worry about. Whew!

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    But in a way it's the mess that makes the album. The lofi sonics make Earthbound sound downright evil. I love it.
    Certainly. This and the fact that Burrell was a newbie bass player whom Mr. Flippe had to instruct through painful scrutiny (on "Schizoid Man") and who had to struggle in keeping up with his bandmates, yet still he comes off as having one helluva time performing this. I love his vocal freakouts in "Schizoid", that ridiculous rant-scat in the two-tone jam, even the mighty chaos which is "Groon" here - and Mel Collins' rabid honk in the background at all times. This was a progressive rock band who actually sounded drunk on stage, and for that alone I'd might recommend this to anyone prejudiced against the clichéd conception of such music.

    A mediocre record which is still absolutely worth listening to.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #33
    If I buy this it wouldn't be for Earthbound, but for the Summit Studio show in quadrophonic mix. I listened to Earthbound when it came, and decided not to buy it. One thing is the low-fi sound. I thought that the jams on one or two chords was very boring. Fripp didn't sound very comfortable doing that. And the long drum solo processed through a synth on "Groon" was a mess to my ears too. When I heard it, I read this message from mr. Fripp into it: "This is why I disbanded the group." Maybe the rest of the show will be more interesting? I like Fripp's guitar playing better in this period than the stuff he has done since Discipline. And, I only heard it once in the 70's, so maybe I would judge it differently now?

  9. #34
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Despite the mediocre to horrible sound I love that album.
    Its 'different', jamming, raw, right in your face, and 'experimental' - and Fripps solos on Sailor's Tale and on Earthbound is some of my favorite Fripp solos.
    I can imagine that this anachistic unit got to Fripps nerves.

  10. #35
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    A mediocre record which is still absolutely worth listening to.
    That's why I might some day own it, if I can't find a better-sounding alternative with more or less the same set list.
    After all, there is quite a fair bit of potentially interesting improvised stuff (Peoria, Earthbound, lengthy Groon) if it was better recorded
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  11. #36
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ... and Mel Collins' rabid honk in the background at all times.
    "At all times" is exactly right. I do wish Mel Collins knew when to STFU.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    That's why I might some day own it, if I can't find a better-sounding alternative with more or less the same set list.
    After all, there is quite a fair bit of potentially interesting improvised stuff (Peoria, Earthbound, lengthy Groon) if it was better recorded
    Summit Studios is probably the closest thing, though its main blow is in jazz territory rather than two-chord rock and there's none of Pete's 'tron (both of which will be either a big plus or a big flaw, depending).

  13. #38
    Postulation: The sound quality of Earthbound is no better or worse than any other board recording. The only reason people shit on the sound quality so much is because they've been programmed to by the fact that when the album was released, board recordings were a thing of bootlegs primarily, so it sounded shitty compared to a real live album and gained a rep for have shitty sound quality. Now we listen to board recordings all the time, but for some reason can't let go of the fact that Earthbound sounds especially bad, because we imprinted that idea decades ago.

    It sounds fine.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    ^^^ I looked at the press release again and noticed that there is in fact no promise of a remix or even remastering. It is just "expanded". So, yeah, we have nothing to worry about. Whew!
    Well, given it was recorded to cassette, which would have been two-track, a remix would be impossible. That said, I suspect they'll have worked some 21st Century technology on it to make the sonics better than the original...and, likely, the 30th Anniversary. But that's just postulation as, while I've been starting to receive advance material for the review, I've yet to receive anything from the Earthbound part of the box other than the Summit Studios material.

    But for those on the fence about the box? I'll recommend it now, even without having heard it all yet. Additional material found for all three albums makes it worthwhile, even for those who coughed up for the original 2-disc 40th Anniversary editions of ITWoP, Lizard and Islands. I won't say more, but there's already a lot of wonderful material ..and, as I said, I've not yet received any of the material from Earthbound or other shows from that tour that will be included.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    Summit Studios is probably the closest thing, though its main blow is in jazz territory rather than two-chord rock and there's none of Pete's 'tron (both of which will be either a big plus or a big flaw, depending).
    Who is "Pete"?!

  16. #41
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Sinfield, I expect.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

  17. #42
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Who is "Pete"?!
    My recollection is that "Pete" didn't play a "'tron"; he turned knobs on a VCS3.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    Postulation: The sound quality of Earthbound is no better or worse than any other board recording.
    Not true. The sound quality of Earthbound has nothing to do with it being a two track recording (which I assume is what you mean when you say "board recording"). The problem here is that Fripp took "doing it on the cheap" to the limit by using a cassettes to record the music, rather than ponying up for a professional grade equipment. Trust me, it really makes a difference. It's also possible that though there was in theory a recording engineer monitoring the recording equipment, that the levels occasionally got into the red.

    If you listen to some of the recordings of the Grateful Dead from the 70's, which were done using pro quality equipment (I believe usually using a Nagra) you can hear how good a so called "board" recording can sound. And that's not just whatever remastering or remixing that was done for the official releases. I had quite a few of the shows that were released as part of the Dick's Picks and Road Trips series of releases, and they sounded great to begin with.

    BTW, the "board recordings" we "listen to all the time" are mostly different from what was done with Earthbound (and most of the Dead recordings). Usually, when we talk of board recordings, we're talking about recording off the front of house mixing desk, meaning we're hearing the feed that went out to the PA. The Grateful Dead (and to the best of my understanding, also with Earthbound), you're hearing a separate feed that was made just for the recording. You run two signals off each mic or instrument onstage. One feed goes to the FOH desk, the other goes to a separate mixing console that's mixing just for the recording. That way, you'll (hopefully) end up with a tape that sounds good when you're listening back to it, rather a recording of what needed go into the PA to match whatever was already very loud onstage.

    Of course, that difference assumes the FOH sound person is actually doing his or her job correctly in the first place. Fripp once said that during the Wetton era, the bass was always left out of the PA mix, because Wetton's amp was already a very powerful sound on it's own, and didn't necessarily need further amplification through the PA. I remember reading in one of my Grateful Dead books, an observation being made (during an interview with one of the Dead's sound guys) that there were shows in the 80's where Bob Weir's guitar was "unbearably loud", but when listening to the board tapes, you could barely hear him, that being the result of Don Healy pulling Weir back all the way in the mix.

    And before you say "why wouldn't the sound person do the job right", I've heard also heard of bands firing the sound person because they listened to a tape later, and decided the mix "didn't sound right", because presumably the musicians didn't understand why it sounded the way it did.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    My recollection is that "Pete" didn't play a "'tron"; he turned knobs on a VCS3.
    Assuming we're talking about Sinfield, this is correct. He was the lighting person, and operated the VCS-3 when it was put into action. Of course, he had already left the band when the Earthbound tour happened. If I remember correctly, it was someone named Hunter McDonald who took control of the VCS-3 (and presumably, also the lights).

    In this era, only Fripp and Collins played Mellotron.

    If I remember correctly, I've read that Summit Studios was actually on the second floor of a building, and as such, it may have been determined by whomever would have had to do it, that moving the Mellotrons up at least one flight of stairs wasn't on. But I believe there's also no VCS-3 on there either, so maybe there's more to the story.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Not true. The sound quality of Earthbound has nothing to do with it being a two track recording (which I assume is what you mean when you say "board recording"). The problem here is that Fripp took "doing it on the cheap" to the limit by using a cassettes to record the music, rather than ponying up for a professional grade equipment. Trust me, it really makes a difference. It's also possible that though there was in theory a recording engineer monitoring the recording equipment, that the levels occasionally got into the red.
    Interesting. I've never heard the story that way before. It was my understanding that Fripp wasn't interested in doing a live album, so he handed recordings from the sound board reference cassettes over to the record company. This is the first time I've heard it suggested that Fripp intentionally and knowingly recorded a live album on cassette because he was "doing it on the cheap."

    Nevertheless, can I hear all four members of the band? Yes. Are the levels between the individual instruments balanced? Yes. Is there rumbling, muddy bass or tinny high end? No. Hiss or distortion? Minimal to none. All good.

    It's an early 70's sound board cassette. Yes, there are better board recordings. And there are worse.

    The shit this album takes for its "poor sound quality" is overblown and based largely on people repeating what's been said about the album before. No amount of words in quotation marks is going to convince me otherwise.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    Interesting. I've never heard the story that way before. It was my understanding that Fripp wasn't interested in doing a live album, so he handed recordings from the sound board reference cassettes over to the record company. This is the first time I've heard it suggested that Fripp intentionally and knowingly recorded a live album on cassette because he was "doing it on the cheap."

    Nevertheless, can I hear all four members of the band? Yes. Are the levels between the individual instruments balanced? Yes. Is there rumbling, muddy bass or tinny high end? No. Hiss or distortion? Minimal to none. All good.

    It's an early 70's sound board cassette. Yes, there are better board recordings. And there are worse.

    The shit this album takes for its "poor sound quality" is overblown and based largely on people repeating what's been said about the album before. No amount of words in quotation marks is going to convince me otherwise.
    I agree with your premise to great extent.

    But if you don't hear "distortion" on Earthbound, it might be time for a doctor visit. ;-)

    The whole THING was recorded so far in the red that it is ridiculous. And that's part of what I love about it. The album is the antithesis of every cliché ever thrown at "prog."

    It's the biggest Crimson mess ever. It represents a brief, uncharacteristic period. It has Crimson dabbling in funkified, shout from a drunken campfire with a generator soul-blues. It distorts at every step. It has laser beam guitar recorded so far into the red that will fry your eyes out. It has a VCS-3 drum solo that would make Sun Ra proud ... the thing NEVER lets up and had no business ever leaving the studio let alone being sent over to George Peckham to try to cut the damn thing to vinyl.

    Will I be buying a 72 CD expanded edition with new mixes and stuff from DGM put onto CD?

    No. No, I won't.

    But I love the album. And can't imagine any Crimson collection being without it.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I agree with your premise to great extent.

    But if you don't hear "distortion" on Earthbound, it might be time for a doctor visit. ;-)
    Well now, I did say "minimal."

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    Well now, I did say "minimal."
    Fair enough.

    I'd describe it as "maximal."

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    My recollection is that "Pete" didn't play a "'tron"; he turned knobs on a VCS3.
    You're right; I must have just conflated "things that make synth sounds/noise" all together. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Of course, he had already left the band when the Earthbound tour happened. If I remember correctly, it was someone named Hunter McDonald who took control of the VCS-3 (and presumably, also the lights).
    Now that I didn't know. Interesting tidbit there.

  25. #50
    Subterranean Tapir Hobo Chang Ba's Avatar
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    I'll hope for more of the Wilmington show, as the two songs from Earthbound from DE are easily the best things on the disk. Never really minded the sound. Does it sound good? Of course not...but there is far worse out there and everything is clear enough that I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything (if I am missing out on anything).

    I'll probably wind up getting the box, but good to see this getting a separate release as well.
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