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Thread: What, if anything, is YES?

  1. #51
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2steves View Post
    for Howe White Squire's heirs Yes means a continuation of making money---especially I assume for Squire's heirs who need a source of income now that Chris has passed away---there is a newish wife and a kid involved.
    For bands like Yes with a long history and extensive catalog, the licensing not only includes who can tour as "Yes" (ABWH anyone?) and who can put out new music as "Yes" (Union anyone?) but also who profits from the extensive catalog of Yes records and DVDs, and Yes swag like tour jackets and posters and action figures and lunchboxes. Ask Gene Simmons about the revenue stream generated by merch. The corporation that is Yes transcends music, and is a global money-making conglomerate (like ZFT) with, one assumes, incorporation papers that spell out in great detail how many "points" each ex-member draws from the corporate income.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 09-07-2017 at 10:10 PM.

  2. #52
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    I cherish my Yes action figures.

  3. #53

  4. #54
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rghammill View Post
    Well, the short answers to your question are:

    1. They are both using the Yes name (albeit in a different way), and until a court states otherwise, they are both legally entitled to.
    2. They can both issue albums under the names they are using. Although ARW are using "Yes, featuring ARW" that's almost certainly to avoid forcing the issue in court. It's quite possible that they could attempt to issue an album under the name "Yes" and do so successfully unless they go to court.
    3. Like any trademark or brand, "Yes" can be sold (and thus bought), and inherited. It's all a question of who owns the shares of the company, and also the ownership contract. Even if the company folds, the name now holds intrinsic value and can be sold and owned independently of the status of the company. When forming a company, one of the most important things is to define what happens when somebody: quits, is fired, or dies. Such a contract can provide first rights to the company, that is when Squire passed, the rest of the company has the right to purchase his shares before his shares can be sold or bequeathed to someone else. But if the band chooses to not act on that, then anybody can purchase those shares.

    Note that "until a court states otherwise" is a bit more complicated than it might imply, since there are the laws of multiple countries to consider. So it's entirely possible that ARW could secure the rights to "Yes" in the US, but not in the UK.

    A longer answer is:

    The business and art of music don't mix well. Songs, lyrics, band names, logos, stage shows, visuals, etc. are all things with intrinsic value that can be owned. Ownership can be transferred, and defined under contract.

    Henry Potts "Yes - Where are they now?" site has quite a bit of information here: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wnyesm.htm#mgmt

    There are multiple trademarks and such in play and, of course, the legal aspects are handled differently in different countries as well. Combine that with the fact that most band members probably don't consider that somebody who leaves the band might actually decide they might try to continue using the band name, the contracts probably aren't that well considered. I suspect a great many bands might find their record label owns the "brand" and the name, and could do what they want with it.

    Note that those refer to contracts/companies created in '97, 2002 and 2014, but undoubtedly weren't the first.

    Yeswest (Squire, Rabin and White, I think) had contested the use of "An evening of Yes music plus" and the use of the name Yes in any marketing by ABWH and lost, although I don't know if it ever went to court. The suit was apparently based off an agreement signed in 1984 by all past and current members of Yes that indicated a leaving member couldn't use the name or mention they were in the band after a certain date (I haven't been able to find the original suit for more details).

    However, in 2002, Tony Kaye sued to stop the production of the "In a Word" box set, claiming unpaid royalties and that he wasn't consulted, and that suit apparently claimed Tony was a 25% owner of the name, apparently based on a 1982 contract.

    This was applied for by Anderson/Squire/White but not Steve Howe 1980. Even stranger is that the filing was made in June 1980, after Jon had left the band in March, and Downes and Horn started recording with the band in May. The trademark was finally registered in 1982, when Rabin was in (but Jon wasn't yet). The trademark was filed in Australia but notes it's a US trademark, so I don't know what to make of that.

    I would guess there's a lot of gray area here, and that while an original member (Squire) was still in a band touring and writing as "Yes" that could also prove continuity, that Anderson's lawyers recommended that they don't test it. Once they decide to start using the name, then it's up to the other Yes to decide whether it's worth taking them to court. I suspect that with the mess of old contracts (undoubtedly more than what Henry reports), that they aren't assured of a win, and the risk (and expense) isn't worth it. Since it's Steve Howe that has the relationship with Roger Dean, they get the better logo, T-shirts, album covers, etc. combined with the fact that Howe still seems to be the Yes fan favorite in the Rabin/Howe debate. On top of that they are playing far more of the classic '70s material.

    I think there are probably other legal precedents as well. From what I know, Bev Bevan and Jeff Lynne had agreed to Bev's use of ELO Part II for his band. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if this agreement was reached in part because Lynne might have found he didn't own the ELO name and couldn't prevent Bev from using it. Now that Bev has left, the group is "The Orchestra featuring members of ELO Part II" (sounds familiar, doesn't it?), and ELO is now "Jeff Lynne's ELO." A lot of these things don't get to court, because their lawyers work out agreements to avoid it.

    Court cases, business filings, and such are typically public records. But contracts between individuals don't have to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    For bands like Yes with a long history and extensive catalog, the licensing not only includes who can tour as "Yes" (ABWH anyone?) and who can put out new music as "Yes" (Union anyone?) but also who profits from the extensive catalog of Yes records and DVDs, and Yes swag like tour jackets and posters and action figures and lunchboxes. Ask Gene Simmons about the revenue stream generated by merch. The corporation that is Yes transcends music, and is a global money-making conglomerate (like ZFT) with, one assumes, incorporation papers that spell out in great detail how many "points" each ex-member draws from the corporate income.
    Yikes!!

    Only on PE!!!

    Only here will uyou find posters to try to answer useless Yes thread question seriously


    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I cherish my Yes action figures.
    Do they beat the musical crap out of the Kiss figurine?
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I cherish my Yes action figures.
    I only want a Rick Wakeman action figure if it comes with cape and all his keyboards.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucka001 View Post
    I'm not hip to Soft Machine or their history, but didn't they at one time have no original members (in the 70s even)? I always thought that a band should have at least *one* original member as a sort of anchor to the history.
    There have been a fair few examples of bands with no original members: Soft Machine, Gong, Renaissance, Opeth, Sugababes, Heart, Thin Lizzy, Quiet Riot. I think it's wrong to fetishise original members: Jeff Jones was the original bassist in Rush. He played 1 show with them. Is he a more important figure to Rush than non-original members Lee or Peart? Of course not. John McVie wasn't an original member of Fleetwood Mac, even though the band was named after him in part.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  7. #57
    Who is a band is a complicated ontological and legal question. The legal view is that good will accrues to the name of a business, including a band, and using the band name gets you that good will. Who owns the name, and thus the good will, thus needs to be determined. If no-one draws up a contract, then it belongs to the people in the band. If someone is replaced and the replaced person doesn't raise an issue, then it will be taken that they have consented to giving up their share in the good will.

    Of course, once bands get any degree of success, people start drawing up contracts. Good will in a band name is a thing, thus it can be sold. That's capitalism. The owners can sell the name to a completely different set of musicians. They can agree whatever rules among themselves.

    But it gets more complicated than that. Trademarks are separate. Best I can tell, Howe and White, and possibly Squire's estate, own Yes and can defend themselves against other people calling themselves Yes. However, there's this trademark that Anderson and White co-own. I think that lets Anderson have a band incorporating the word "Yes", but he can't have a band called simply "Yes". Meanwhile, the classic Yes logo belongs to Roger Dean and Steve Howe. The back catalogue, at least the part anyone's interested in, belongs to Warner (who swallowed up Atlantic): that's arguably more valuable! But copyrights in recordings eventually run out. Anyone can play Yes songs live because anyone can play any published song live (see recent King Crimson Fripp/Belew spat). As has been said, laws are different in different countries. The other key thing to remember about civil law is that everything's allowed until a court case rules otherwise. The threat of legal action will stop many activities, of course.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
    Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    There have been a fair few examples of bands with no original members: Soft Machine, Gong, Renaissance, Opeth, Sugababes, Heart, Thin Lizzy, Quiet Riot. I think it's wrong to fetishise original members: Jeff Jones was the original bassist in Rush. He played 1 show with them. Is he a more important figure to Rush than non-original members Lee or Peart? Of course not. John McVie wasn't an original member of Fleetwood Mac, even though the band was named after him in part.

    Henry
    I consider the original band, the members that recorded the main body of work. And at the members that haven't recorded any album, may be part of what one might call, the original line-up, but in a way I consider any band member that has left before recording the first album, not really a band member.

    With Renaissance one can state there were 2 versions of the band and the first version returned more or less as Illusion.

  9. #59
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    There have been a fair few examples of bands with no original members: Soft Machine, Gong, Renaissance, Opeth, Sugababes, Heart, Thin Lizzy, Quiet Riot. I think it's wrong to fetishise original members: Jeff Jones was the original bassist in Rush. He played 1 show with them. Is he a more important figure to Rush than non-original members Lee or Peart? Of course not. John McVie wasn't an original member of Fleetwood Mac, even though the band was named after him in part.

    Henry
    We should be considering the recording debut of the band... Personally I never considered Sutcliffe and Best as Beatles members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    As if that's going to stop this Yes thread to reach page 15 by the early next week.
    well on the way to reach the target, Houston!!
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    We should be considering the recording debut of the band... Personally I never considered Sutcliffe and Best as Beatles members.


    Exactly

  11. #61
    Member Mascodagama's Avatar
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    Yes is a month-old croissant.
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  12. #62
    It will be interesting to see if Aymeric addresses this in his upcoming book..

    As for any 50th activities, it's just such a shame that all the surviving members can't come together to celebrate their history. I guess RRHOF is as close as it could get... While Yes may be a many different things to many different people, Billy Sherwood and Jon Davison it isn't. IMHO, of course.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    It will be interesting to see if Aymeric addresses this in his upcoming book...
    My book is no longer upcoming - it came out yesterday.
    No, I don't address the issue of who owns the name in that much detail, sorry.
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/ + "King Crimson" (2012/updated 2018) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/kingcrimson/
    Canterbury & prog interviews - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdf...IUPxUMA/videos

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    I don't address the issue of who owns the name in that much detail, sorry.
    Don't be sorry, Aymeric. Seriously. Don't be.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    My book is no longer upcoming - it came out yesterday.
    No, I don't address the issue of who owns the name in that much detail, sorry.
    Congrats!
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    I consider the original band, the members that recorded the main body of work. And at the members that haven't recorded any album, may be part of what one might call, the original line-up, but in a way I consider any band member that has left before recording the first album, not really a band member.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    We should be considering the recording debut of the band... Personally I never considered Sutcliffe and Best as Beatles members.
    You're both going to some lengths to re-define what "original" means. Why not just stop using the word and use a word that fits better? What about "the classic members"?

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
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  17. #67
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    My book is no longer upcoming - it came out yesterday.
    No, I don't address the issue of who owns the name in that much detail, sorry.
    As I pointed out in this very thread yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Don't be sorry, Aymeric. Seriously. Don't be.
    Indeed, it's not like anyone gives a hoot anyways...

    It was just a pretext used to open up the PE monthly Yes thread

    It was about time too, some members here started suffering from withdrawal symptoms
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    You're both going to some lengths to re-define what "original" means. Why not just stop using the word and use a word that fits better? What about "the classic members"?

    Henry
    Well, original to me means the members that were part of the group when they recorded there first album. Groups often start with trying various members till they reached some form of 'definitive' line-up. Otherwise, someone who played on the first rehearsal, only to be fired afterwards, would be considered an original member.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Well, original to me means the members that were part of the group when they recorded there first album. Groups often start with trying various members till they reached some form of 'definitive' line-up. Otherwise, someone who played on the first rehearsal, only to be fired afterwards, would be considered an original member.
    The process by which groups evolve towards some form of 'definitive' line-up often continues past their first album. Or is John Rutsey the definitive Rush drummer and Jane Relf the definitive Renaissance vocalist? Is Rachid Houari the definitive Gong drummer and Conrad Schnitzler the definitive Tangerine Dream violinist? Some bands never settle on a 'definitive' line-up, for that matter: which was Soft Machine's?

    I think when most people say "original", they mean "classic", they mean the people on the albums/tour that made that band famous. Neil Peart, Geddy Lee, John McVie, the Wilson sisters, Ringo Starr, Mikael Åkerfeldt &c.

    Henry
    Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
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  20. #70
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I cherish my Yes action figures.
    THEY. ARE. NOT. DOLLS.

  21. #71
    Did you get what you were asking, OP? Actual information? If not, here is some more actual information: Yes is the empty shirt of the beloved, shirt soaking in drooling and other body liquid, of devoted, abandoned old lovers.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Or is John Rutsey the definitive Rush drummer

    Henry
    No Jeff, no John, no Rush.

  23. #73
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I think when most people say "original", they mean "classic", they mean the people on the albums/tour that made that band famous.
    Having seen my share of "famous sixties groups" at the Washington State Fair, let me propose an alternate answer. As long as the music sounds incredibly similar to the hits, and as long as the vocalist is (or sounds just like) the original vocalist, most of us rubes are perfectly happy with a Turtles or Grass Roots or Herman's Hermits or Beach Boys that includes very few, if any, original members. Nostalgia just wants the sound.

    And let's face it, there are very few instrumentalists -- not even Jimi Hendrix -- who cannot be duplicated in concert by somebody talented.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I think when most people say "original", they mean "classic", they mean the people on the albums/tour that made that band famous.
    No (not me, anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    I consider any band member that has left before recording the first album, not really a band member.
    Yes (I would extend that to first official recording, i.e. for a label, so it could have been a single)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    We should be considering the recording debut of the band... Personally I never considered Sutcliffe and Best as Beatles members.
    Yes.

    If Jeff Jones didn't record with Rush, played one gig when they were kids, etc, then he's not an original member. As an author of a book on VdGG, and also a semi-official historian of that band (the band members tell me so, so that's good enough for me), I consider the original lineup the 5-piece that recorded their first single for Polydor. There were other lineups beforehand, but it's more the shambling around of kids "getting it together" (at one point VdGG consisted of 20 kids having a jam at Manchester U, Hammill and CJS were among them).

    That being the case, I consider Peter Banks *hands down* the original guitarist with Yes, while Howe may be part of the "definitive" lineup. So, I stand by my assertion that it's weird (to me) that the current Yes (Howe / White / Davidson / etc) could step back into 1969 and meet up with Anderson, Kaye, Squire, Bruford, and Banks, and both groups would claim to be Yes but not have one common member.

  25. #75
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Did you get what you were asking, OP? Actual information? If not, here is some more actual information: Yes is the empty shirt of the beloved, shirt soaking in drooling and other body liquid, of devoted, abandoned old lovers.
    I hope some other Yes thread died that this one could live. That would lighten my karmic burden.
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

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