Steven Wilson North American Tour WITHOUT Marco Minnemann!!!!

[Jeremy Bender]

As usual the lackluster L.A. audience embraced Wilson, but lacked energy in clapping power, and standing ovations

Ever been to a show in San Francisco? Talk about jaded and a "show-me" attitude! Ever been to a gig in London? It's a short cheer after a song and then total silence.

I went to two Marillion shows at the House of Blues last year and the crowd went crazy both nights, gave them a great response.

I guess prog is still an unknown in Los Angeles, and still a little secret reserved for the very lucky few

A yes, that old classic, "we prog fans are so very special". .

I mean a mammoth talent such as Wilson NOT selling out the venue?

It's a shitty venue in a horrible mega-mall/arena complex that's really hard to find once you navigate the huge parking structures and the way overpriced on-site parking. I went there last year to see Echo & The Bunnymen do their first two albums and the sound sucked, the beer was watery & overpriced and that huge balcony overhang makes the sound disappear for anyone on the floor underneath it. As was noted, what good is it playing a venue when the visual effects blind people? Why not play the HOB for two nights or the Avalon?

Also, there's more than a few people I've met here (i.e. my boss) who would have to be paid a large sum of money to go downtown after the sun goes down, because, well, you know, you'll get knifed to death within 10 seconds of stepping out of your car, which will then be stolen and stripped for parts.

It's unbelievable to me how many people in Los Angeles don't know about great music, and are missing out

Oh c'mon. Music fans here were one of the first to embrace the classic prog bands in a big way. ELP headlined the 18,000 capacity Hollywood Bowl in 1971 (less than a year after their live debut!), they had no problem in their heyday selling out Long Beach Arena, the Anaheim Convention Center, the Swing in San Bernardino, same with Yes after Close to the Edge. Genesis point to their gigs at the Roxy in 1973 as crucial to building their American fanbase, they were playing The Shrine (6,500 capacity) on The Lamb tour when they were playing 2-4,000 seaters elsewhere in the US. Marillion were playing theaters here when they couldn't get arrested elsewhere outside of New York and Quebec or were getting booed off stage opening for Rush. Not to mention the various prog festivals that are done in Southern California......

And on and on and on. Sorry to be so defensive, but there's simply no basis for your "people in Los Angeles don't know about great music" line, the record business has been based here since the late 60's and at one point, it's estimated that over 75% of the records on the Top 200 chart were made here. There's also all the musicians who hang out at GIT or at the world-class music programs at USC and UCLA. This is one of THE centers for music and musicians in the world, along with New York and London.

Maybe, just maybe, Steven Wilson and his management picked the wrong venue and didn't promote it enough. If it wasn't for this board, I might not have even know there was a gig here, that's how little it was promoted.

[N_Singh]

I was actually shocked to hear how many VIABLE jazz venues there are in LA for working musicians. It maybe even more important than NY in terms of being able to supply steady gigs.

[Stickleback]

I was under the impression that many progressive don't bother coming to California.

[progrocket]

I was under the impression that many progressive don't bother coming to California.

Or the rest of the West Coast for that matter. For many bands it probably doesn't make sense financially to travel 2000 miles for 2-4 shows, the East Coast is so much denser.

[Shadow]

Or the rest of the West Coast for that matter. For many bands it probably doesn't make sense financially to travel 2000 miles for 2-4 shows, the East Coast is so much denser.

Nobody comes out. They couldn't sell out Progfest with both Banco and Kenso on the bill.

[Jeremy Bender]

Or the rest of the West Coast for that matter. For many bands it probably doesn't make sense financially to travel 2000 miles for 2-4 shows, the East Coast is so much denser.

One of things that's been a constant refrain from touring British musicians since the 1960's is just how HUGE the US is, you could fit the entire UK in the area from the Mexican border to San Francisco. I remember reading an interview with Robbie Williams about trying to make it big in the US. He was a stadium-sized star in the UK and Europe but when he came over here, he was told he'd have to spend 9 months a year touring here, playing in small venues (1-2,000 capacity) until he built up a fanbase. He declined the offer.

I keeping hoping that another Marillion tour fund thing will come up, I'm doing OK financially and I'd gladly kick in a few hundred bucks if it meant that they could come here more than once every 7 or 8 years. I still want to hear A Few Words For The Dead (which sounds incredible on the new R2013 remix) and The Last Century Of Man live.

Nobody comes out. They couldn't sell out Progfest with both Banco and Kenso on the bill

That was 13 years ago.

[Patelena396]

Ever been to a show in San Francisco? Talk about jaded and a "show-me" attitude! Ever been to a gig in London? It's a short cheer after a song and then total silence.

I went to two Marillion shows at the House of Blues last year and the crowd went crazy both nights, gave them a great response.A yes, that old classic, "we prog fans are so very special". .It's a shitty venue in a horrible mega-mall/arena complex that's really hard to find once you navigate the huge parking structures and the way overpriced on-site parking. I went there last year to see Echo & The Bunnymen do their first two albums and the sound sucked, the beer was watery & overpriced and that huge balcony overhang makes the sound disappear for anyone on the floor underneath it. As was noted, what good is it playing a venue when the visual effects blind people? Why not play the HOB for two nights or the Avalon?

Also, there's more than a few people I've met here (i.e. my boss) who would have to be paid a large sum of money to go downtown after the sun goes down, because, well, you know, you'll get knifed to death within 10 seconds of stepping out of your car, which will then be stolen and stripped for parts.Oh c'mon. Music fans here were one of the first to embrace the classic prog bands in a big way. ELP headlined the 18,000 capacity Hollywood Bowl in 1971 (less than a year after their live debut!), they had no problem in their heyday selling out Long Beach Arena, the Anaheim Convention Center, the Swing in San Bernardino, same with Yes after Close to the Edge. Genesis point to their gigs at the Roxy in 1973 as crucial to building their American fanbase, they were playing The Shrine (6,500 capacity) on The Lamb tour when they were playing 2-4,000 seaters elsewhere in the US. Marillion were playing theaters here when they couldn't get arrested elsewhere outside of New York and Quebec or were getting booed off stage opening for Rush. Not to mention the various prog festivals that are done in Southern California......

And on and on and on. Sorry to be so defensive, but there's simply no basis for your "people in Los Angeles don't know about great music" line, the record business has been based here since the late 60's and at one point, it's estimated that over 75% of the records on the Top 200 chart were made here. There's also all the musicians who hang out at GIT or at the world-class music programs at USC and UCLA. This is one of THE centers for music and musicians in the world, along with New York and London.

Maybe, just maybe, Steven Wilson and his management picked the wrong venue and didn't promote it enough. If it wasn't for this board, I might not have even know there was a gig here, that's how little it was promoted.

The show was extremely well attended and pretty darn near a a sell out. Promoted or not, it drew a crowd in just fine. Also, my personal preference, but I will take Club Nokia over the House of Blues anytime. hOB.is a sardine can of a club.

[AncientChord]

Ever been to a show in San Francisco? Talk about jaded and a "show-me" attitude! Ever been to a gig in London? It's a short cheer after a song and then total silence.

I went to two Marillion shows at the House of Blues last year and the crowd went crazy both nights, gave them a great response.A yes, that old classic, "we prog fans are so very special". .It's a shitty venue in a horrible mega-mall/arena complex that's really hard to find once you navigate the huge parking structures and the way overpriced on-site parking. I went there last year to see Echo & The Bunnymen do their first two albums and the sound sucked, the beer was watery & overpriced and that huge balcony overhang makes the sound disappear for anyone on the floor underneath it. As was noted, what good is it playing a venue when the visual effects blind people? Why not play the HOB for two nights or the Avalon?

Also, there's more than a few people I've met here (i.e. my boss) who would have to be paid a large sum of money to go downtown after the sun goes down, because, well, you know, you'll get knifed to death within 10 seconds of stepping out of your car, which will then be stolen and stripped for parts.Oh c'mon. Music fans here were one of the first to embrace the classic prog bands in a big way. ELP headlined the 18,000 capacity Hollywood Bowl in 1971 (less than a year after their live debut!), they had no problem in their heyday selling out Long Beach Arena, the Anaheim Convention Center, the Swing in San Bernardino, same with Yes after Close to the Edge. Genesis point to their gigs at the Roxy in 1973 as crucial to building their American fanbase, they were playing The Shrine (6,500 capacity) on The Lamb tour when they were playing 2-4,000 seaters elsewhere in the US. Marillion were playing theaters here when they couldn't get arrested elsewhere outside of New York and Quebec or were getting booed off stage opening for Rush. Not to mention the various prog festivals that are done in Southern California......

And on and on and on. Sorry to be so defensive, but there's simply no basis for your "people in Los Angeles don't know about great music" line, the record business has been based here since the late 60's and at one point, it's estimated that over 75% of the records on the Top 200 chart were made here. There's also all the musicians who hang out at GIT or at the world-class music programs at USC and UCLA. This is one of THE centers for music and musicians in the world, along with New York and London.

Maybe, just maybe, Steven Wilson and his management picked the wrong venue and didn't promote it enough. If it wasn't for this board, I might not have even know there was a gig here, that's how little it was promoted.

Your points and others do make sense. And I agree that many prog bands never make it to the West Coast because of touring costs. I guess that L.A. is such a huge metropolitan area, with so many different ethnic cultures, that prog just gets lost in the shuffle of music, and is a musical minority. Club Nokia was almost sold out, and yes, I HATE the venue too, difficult to find, difficult to park, etc., etc.. Although I had good seats at Nokia, I much rather see any show somewhere else. HOB's in West Hollywood is far superior IMO. I still stand by the "We are the lucky few" old cliche because, I mean who in their right mind would want to see their favorite prog band performing in Dodger Stadium or some other huge venue? And isn't it better that sometimes certain prog shows are not heavily marketed, as previously stated to ensure the possibility of better seating? Word does get around by web sites and forums such as this. I don't think the Steve Hackett Genesis Revisited show was marketed at all except on the Cal-Prog web site, and it sold out. And yes, early 70's prog was big in L.A., but it was the times, and prog was played more on FM radio and was better marketed. It reached a much wider audience in those days. Who out there that is old enough can forget how many great prog acts were even on late night T.V. shows here like the Midnight Special, or ABC's In Concert, or on radio broadcasts like The King Biscuit Flour Hour, etc.? It was a much different musical world then, and now prog seems to be more underground, especially in America. The only things I see that really promote the artists here today are the many prog festivals that now exist (RIP Nearfest), mainly on the East Coast, but at least they exist, or small local promoters such as Cal-Prog. All in all I guess Wilson did pretty good with nil marketing. I'm certain that not only word or mouth, but the ease of obtaining info on the net helps spread the news to the artists fanbase.

[boilk]

This argument of prog bands 'ignoring' the West coast, seems an old one, to me. Unless you're Steven Wilson-sized prog band successful, there is no financial justification to play a handful of shows so far removed from the much more densely populated East coast. It sucks at times, if you're a prog fan and that's where you live, but it's certainly not a snub.

By and large, I'm quite happy that prog bands don't draw huge crowds. It's so much nicer seeing a band in a mid-sized or smaller venue, so you can be up close and see the players playing, and maybe even talk to them after the show, if you choose to. I would think it is much harder for the bands, who have to deal with difficult touring conditions, especially from a financial point of view, than the fans.

neil

[Jefferson James]

LA is a tough nut to crack, as Ancient Chord said (ie. LA is a huge metro area with tons of cultures fighting for attention); even for regional prog-rock bands it's not an easy task to draw a crowd, and to get anywhere NEAR the attendance level of Steven Wilson's show or the CalProg shows is like a pipe-dream for a lot of bands. Still, we're out there trying our best...

Billy Sherwood and Jim Ladd tried pretty damned hard to bring modern prog back into LA's consciousness via the Headsets radio program and Laserium shows; I figured with Ladd on KLOS playing CIRCA: perhaps a little resurgence would happen. Alas, it didn't come to pass for whatever reason.

I would think a band could make a go of it playing a string of gigs in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland and Seattle but I guess the distances -- and aloof crowds in the bigger cities -- make it a tough go.

[Stickleback]

Or the rest of the West Coast for that matter. For many bands it probably doesn't make sense financially to travel 2000 miles for 2-4 shows, the East Coast is so much denser.

But that didn't stop the classic progressive bands of the 70s who all made West Coast appearances. I guess touring costs have changed a lot in 40 years?

[AncientChord]

I would think a band could make a go of it playing a string of gigs in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland and Seattle but I guess the distances -- and aloof crowds in the bigger cities -- make it a tough go.

If they (prog bands) could only spend a bit more money and do West Coast tours instead of East. But I do understand why. So many prog bands from Europe only make it to the East since it is so much easier to get there along with their financial cost savings. Even Classic prog bands like Van Der Graaf Generator have NEVER come to L.A.. It kills me to see them, and others like them, doing tours on the East Coast only! Ah, such is life!

[Paulrus]

I guess touring costs have changed a lot in 40 years?

Yeah, I think travel (gas for the bus/air fare) and insurance have taken a big toll on touring musicians. And for European bands the Visa requirements just to get into the country are severe to say the least. Maybe someone can find a link to that amazing essay Bill Bruford wrote about it not long ago.

[progrocket]

But that didn't stop the classic progressive bands of the 70s who all made West Coast appearances. I guess touring costs have changed a lot in 40 years?

Well I can't really speak for shows that happened before I was born, but I'm guessing that back in the heyday it was easier to fill bigger venues, so it would make more financial sense.

[Stickleback]

Genesis played the Roxy Theater in 1973. I don't think they got much mainstream press in those days.

[AncientChord]

Genesis played the Roxy Theater in 1973. I don't think they got much mainstream press in those days.

I disagree. Please read my comments on post #358 about exposure of prog to the masses in America in the early to mid 70's. And to add to that, the internet didn't exist. People read more printed material. Music newspapers such as Melody Maker from England were sent to record stores here, and we learned from them also. I believe my perception is valid.

[Jeremy Bender]

But that didn't stop the classic progressive bands of the 70s who all made West Coast appearances. I guess touring costs have changed a lot in 40 years?

Note: this is only about American labels for these bands, in England and Europe it varied widely.

ELP and Yes were on Atlantic Records, King Crimson was on Island, Gentle Giant with Columbia > Capitol from Three Friends on, Genesis on Buddah > Atco (a sub of Atlantic), Jethro Tull on Reprise etc. In other words: they were all on major record labels/subsidiaries of a major record label = money for tour support and promotion + access to the best venues.

Except for Marillion's time on Capitol (which ended with Afraid of Sunlight) and Pallas, who had their first album distributed by Capitol in the US, how many neo-prog/prog bands apart from the ones mentioned above have been on major labels since ca. 1980? I'm curious, I can't think of any others right now. It really is mind-boggling how powerful the major labels were until they totally dropped the ball with downloading. They literally could make or break a band simply by deciding whether or not to give them tour and promo support.

Touring costs have risen over time, the price of gas alone is a major factor. I contributed as much as could to the first Marillion tour fund, here's a bit from their website about it:

In 1997 we toured the USA and Canada thanks to the "Tour Fund." The tour fund was the brainchild of American fan Jeff Pelletier. He came to me with the proposition that willing fans could contribute what they could afford to a fund, to enable Marillion to tour North America. That’s the closest we came to accepting charitable donations. We didn’t feel comfortable about people giving us money to pay for a tour but felt unable to refuse because our stateside fans wanted that tour so much. We are glad we did it. It was a great tour and everyone involved loved it

I thought, and still do, that it's a great idea and I would gladly pay in to another one if it meant they came here more than once every 7 or 8 years.

[progrocket]

In 1997 we toured the USA and Canada thanks to the "Tour Fund." The tour fund was the brainchild of American fan Jeff Pelletier. He came to me with the proposition that willing fans could contribute what they could afford to a fund, to enable Marillion to tour North America. That’s the closest we came to accepting charitable donations. We didn’t feel comfortable about people giving us money to pay for a tour but felt unable to refuse because our stateside fans wanted that tour so much. We are glad we did it. It was a great tour and everyone involved loved it

I thought, and still do, that it's a great idea and I would gladly pay in to another one if it meant they came here more than once every 7 or 8 years.

That's awesome. Crowdfunding way ahead of its time! Bands could Kickstart tours. Higher cost rewards could give merch or backstage passes. Stretch goals for added venues.

[Obscured]