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Thread: Marillion

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    There's 12-string guitars for textures.
    Where do you hear 12 string on the Fish era records? It's been awhile since I've listened to them, but the only 12 string I remember was on Easter.

  2. #52
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Another fun fact: one of the people "thanked" in the credits of Fugazi is Nigel Planer, one of the stars of the BBC's anarchic sitcom The Young Ones. Those of you who remember the show may recall in one episode, Nigel's character, Neil, namechecks both Hawkwind and Marillion in the space of a single sentence (and in another episode, there's also a Steve Hillage allusion).
    We might as well mention that there's a Genesis reference too...

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    We might as well mention that there's a Genesis reference too...
    You got me there. I don't remember a Genesis allusion on The Young Ones. Where was it?

  4. #54
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    You got me there. I don't remember a Genesis allusion on The Young Ones. Where was it?
    I believe in the episode "Bored," where one of them says "I'm so bored we might as well be listening to Genesis."

  5. #55
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    He Knows You Know doesn't sound like Genesis to me, but it does sound a bit like solo Gabriel.

    Trane, when you call Hogarth's vocals whiny, do you mean the sound of his vocals or the lyrical content, or both?
    his voice mainly, as it's so irritating (to my delicate eardrums) that I could never be bothered to decipher what he whines about

    ========

    But it's not like I followed Fish's solo career from close... I thought his debut was somewhat quite better than Marillion's H era, but by his second album, I'd given up.
    Last edited by Trane; 08-05-2017 at 03:57 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I believe in the episode "Bored," where one of them says "I'm so bored we might as well be listening to Genesis."
    As I remember-
    Rick pacing around the room,
    " God I'm bored!" Then mutters almost under his breath ,"I'd rather be listening to Genesis"...

  7. #57
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    Script has some very shaky playing (the lumbering tempo on 'Garden Party' makes me wince every single time) and some overbearing moments here and there, but it was a brave statement. Fugazi is the 'difficult second album' if ever there was one; 'Assassing', 'Incubus' and the title track are all significant advances on the debut but the rest does nothing for me at all and never has. Misplaced Childhood and Clutching At Straws are classic albums, the rough edges are gone and the writing is far superior. The latter very quickly became my favourite of the Fish albums.

    I think with the Hogarth albums, Seasons End (save a couple of 'big hair' tracks), Brave and Afraid Of Sunlight remain their best, the latter being their peak with Hogarth IMHO. Holidays In Eden has its moments but the more 'pop' material/production has dated. I don't play the ones which immediately followed very much if at all anymore, but still like Marbles and (surprisingly) Somewhere Else. Quite like the song-cycle Essence but only a couple of tracks on The Hard Shoulder hold up, too many studio doodles IMHO. Sounds That Can't Be Made has yet to grab me. I do think a 'meandering' quality crept in when they went independent.

  8. #58
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ...only a couple of tracks on The Hard Shoulder hold up, too many studio doodles IMHO.
    Here are the songs - what do you consider "studio doodles?" IMO Older Than Me is a bit slight - I don't mind it but it could have been left off. Half the World doesn't do much for me at all. Everything else is very strong, IMO. I know some don't care for Thunder Fly but I think it's really good. I'm not saying you MUST like it or anything, but you might give a few of those songs another listen, maybe just one at a time.

    Thunder Fly" – 6:24
    The Man from the Planet Marzipan" – 7:55
    Asylum Satellite #1" – 9:32
    Older Than Me" – 3:11
    Throw Me Out" – 4:01
    Half the World" – 5:08
    Whatever Is Wrong with You" – 4:16
    Especially True" – 4:37
    Real Tears for Sale" – 7:34
    Last edited by JKL2000; 08-04-2017 at 02:18 PM.

  9. #59
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    Never cared for this band. I tried but just never clicked with me. I have kept Brave in my collection. Been 12 years or so since I played it last. I should probably spin it now because of this thread.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    What band that has been active for 38 years and released 18 studio albums hasn't changed since that first album?
    Um, Ozric Tentacles?

    But to the OP, the similarities between Marillion and early Genesis are superficial and only hold true if you break Genesis down to it's simplest clichés (the singer wears makeup, he sings in a somewhat exaggerated and dramatic fashion, the band dabble in multi-part arrangements, the songs sometimes feature monophonic synth leads, etc.) But you could also say the same for a LOT of bands. Do I hear the influence? Sure. But I also here lots of Peter Hammill, Pink Floyd, and definitely some early new wave.

    And I can't believe this thread is still not on the main forum after 3 pages.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  11. #61
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Um, Ozric Tentacles?

    But to the OP, the similarities between Marillion and early Genesis are superficial and only hold true if you break Genesis down to it's simplest clichés (the singer wears makeup, he sings in a somewhat exaggerated and dramatic fashion, the band dabble in multi-part arrangements, the songs sometimes feature monophonic synth leads, etc.) But you could also say the same for a LOT of bands. Do I hear the influence? Sure. But I also here lots of Peter Hammill, Pink Floyd, and definitely some early new wave.

    And I can't believe this thread is still not on the main forum after 3 pages.
    I think all the members of the band cite Joni Mitchell as an influence, and you can kind of hear that in things like the Milo section of Misplaced Childhood, with the meandering, narrative quality. And when Fish covers songs like Faith Healer and Boston Tea Party the songs are so right for his approach that it's obvious Alex Harvey was an influence.

    Fish said his covers album Songs from the Mirror was called that because those are songs he used to sing in front of the mirror as a child. Yes, I Know What I like is on that (and yeah, it's not a great version), but so are songs by very different artists like Sandy Denny and T. Rex.

  12. #62
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    I liked Clutching well enough, but early Fish grates on me the same way early Gabriel does in that both of them struck me as two dudes who were much too enamored with the sound of their own voice. I find their over-the-top theatrics and vocal hystrionics to be corn of the worst kind. They did for the job of 'front-man' what Gorgeous George did for professional wrestlers.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I liked Clutching well enough, but early Fish grates on me the same way early Gabriel does in that both of them struck me as two dudes who were much too enamored with the sound of their own voice. I find their over-the-top theatrics and vocal hystrionics to be corn of the worst kind. They did for the job of 'front-man' what Gorgeous George did for professional wrestlers.
    That's something I can understand. However, I have always loved Gabriel's voice so even in the early Genesis days it never really bothered me much.

    I wasn't as keen on Fish's voice, but he definitely got better over time. He was pretty darn great on Clutching, IMO.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I liked Clutching well enough, but early Fish grates on me the same way early Gabriel does in that both of them struck me as two dudes who were much too enamored with the sound of their own voice. I find their over-the-top theatrics and vocal hystrionics to be corn of the worst kind. They did for the job of 'front-man' what Gorgeous George did for professional wrestlers.
    Sorry, I don't know who Gorgeous George is or what he did for professional wrestling.

    Do you really think overall that Fish and Gabriel turned out to be bad front-men?

  15. #65
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Sorry, I don't know who Gorgeous George is or what he did for professional wrestling.

    Do you really think overall that Fish and Gabriel turned out to be bad front-men?
    I guess I shouldn't say they were bad front man simply because I didn't like them. I never really appreciated their odd ball stage personas. I've seen very little of fish onstage from that era. I've seen more of Gabriel from his early days in Genesis and never developed an appreciation for that style. The difference between Peter Gabriel and say David Bowie is that I liked David Bowie's music even if I did not appreciate his stage persona. With Gabriel I had no appreciation for his stage persona or the music he was making while he was in Genesis.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I guess I shouldn't say they were bad front man simply because I didn't like them. I never really appreciated their odd ball stage personas. I've seen very little of fish onstage from that era. I've seen more of Gabriel from his early days in Genesis and never developed an appreciation for that style. The difference between Peter Gabriel and say David Bowie is that I liked David Bowie's music even if I did not appreciate his stage persona. With Gabriel I had no appreciation for his stage persona or the music he was making while he was in Genesis.
    Fair enough I guess. How do you feel about, say, Kiss and Alice Cooper?

  17. #67
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Fair enough I guess. How do you feel about, say, Kiss and Alice Cooper?
    Musical speaking, both those acts had songs I liked but I only need their greatest hits and even I don't listen to them that often. Each put on lavish, garish stage shows which I'd probably have enjoyed. But I wouldn't compare what Gabriel was doing in Genesis to Kiss or AC... Peter was wierd for wierd sake, IMO. And to be clear, one of my fave concert tape/videos was Gabriel's POV from his So tour, where he acted fairly normal, no prop kickdrum, no face paint, no odd costumes, no cartoon voices.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    Peter was wierd for wierd sake, IMO. And to be clear, one of my fave concert tape/videos was Gabriel's POV from his So tour, where he acted fairly normal, no prop kickdrum, no face paint, no odd costumes, no cartoon voices.
    It's pretty well documented that Gabriel got into the whole costume and makeup thing to help give the early band some kind of visual focal point because the other band members would always be sitting down (OK, Mike stood part of the time), hunched over their instruments. He realized that people wanted -- no, needed -- something to watch as well as to listen to. Plus the costumes and makeup suited the story-telling nature of their early songs.

    My own opinion is that the "weird" behavior also appealed to PG's inner extrovert and was an outlet for behavior that was considered generally uncouth in England up til then. Much in the same way the Monty Python guys came up with their brand of comedy as a way of breaking free of their cultural straitjackets.

    I think once he started exploring the theatrical side of his performances Gabriel discovered he enjoyed it, and by the way so did the audiences. It seems the only ones put off by it were the other guys in Genesis (though not until around the time of SEBTP.)

    Also, Gabriel's bass drum was not a prop. He was originally a drummer and wanted to contribute musically to what was happening on stage. Plus he felt it lent their music some extra -- and much needed in his view -- bottom end.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  19. #69
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Peter Gabriel is God.

    As for Marillion, definitely at the top of my list for newer progressive rock bands. I mean not playing in the 1970s or earlier. The clip listed in another thread on a show Marilion did in Dublin, was powerful. In fact, I find Steve Hogarth to be one of the most charismatic performers I have ever seen live. I've been avidly attending concerts since the mid-70s so this is significant. One person's whining is another person's charismatic, emotive, and powerful performer.

  20. #70
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    Musical speaking, both those acts had songs I liked but I only need their greatest hits and even I don't listen to them that often. Each put on lavish, garish stage shows which I'd probably have enjoyed. But I wouldn't compare what Gabriel was doing in Genesis to Kiss or AC... Peter was wierd for wierd sake, IMO. And to be clear, one of my fave concert tape/videos was Gabriel's POV from his So tour, where he acted fairly normal, no prop kickdrum, no face paint, no odd costumes, no cartoon voices.
    I guess it's subjective as to which looks more odd, Peter Gabriel dressed as Brittania or Kiss dressed as whatever they were supposed to be.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    Peter Gabriel is God.

    As for Marillion, definitely at the top of my list for newer progressive rock bands. I mean not playing in the 1970s or earlier. The clip listed in another thread on a show Marilion did in Dublin, was powerful. In fact, I find Steve Hogarth to be one of the most charismatic performers I have ever seen live. I've been avidly attending concerts since the mid-70s so this is significant. One person's whining is another person's charismatic, emotive, and powerful performer.
    👍!

  22. #72
    beyond Grendel which pretty clearly apes some suppers ready I have never been bothered by the more superficial similarities to Genesis (and hell I like to blast Grendel from time to time).

    I actually think of the fish albums I like the debut the most I have always loved the title track.

    but overall I am much more a fan of the H years seasons end afraid of sunlight and anoraknophobia probably being my favorites.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I liked Clutching well enough, but early Fish grates on me the same way early Gabriel does in that both of them struck me as two dudes who were much too enamored with the sound of their own voice. I find their over-the-top theatrics and vocal hystrionics to be corn of the worst kind. They did for the job of 'front-man' what Gorgeous George did for professional wrestlers.
    I guess I was the opposite. The vocal histrionics and over the top theatrics are a big part of what attracted me to Marillion in the first place. I saw the band with Fish live twice, and have seen Fish live solo twice and I still think that in his prime, he was one of the great prog front men of all time.

  24. #74
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    I prefer when bands perform behind a sheet like the residents sometimes did, and don't get too noisy or emotional. They shouldn't think too highly of themselves.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    It's pretty well documented that Gabriel got into the whole costume and makeup thing to help give the early band some kind of visual focal point because the other band members would always be sitting down (OK, Mike stood part of the time), hunched over their instruments. He realized that people wanted -- no, needed -- something to watch as well as to listen to. Plus the costumes and makeup suited the story-telling nature of their early songs.
    There was that, plus the fact that it was a means of him to deal with his own shyness. Apparently, there was talk in the very early days of one of the other band members having to do the "talking to the audience" stuff, because Peter had trouble with doing conventional stage announcements, ya know, "This next song is off the new album, it's called The Knife" or whatever.

    At least once, Peter told of how one of the people at Charisma suggested having someone come onstage dressed in the fox outfit, as a means of promoting Foxtrot. Peter said he decided that since he was the singer, and he wanted to be the center of attention, he wanted to di thimself. And that's where the costumes developed form.

    But yeah, he also said somebody had to do something onstage, visually, since everyone else looked somewhat comatose onstage. SO it fell on his shoulders to act out the songs and develop a persona that went beyond simply being "the singer" (or in Peter's case, "the singer/flutist/ancillary percussionist").

    I think once he started exploring the theatrical side of his performances Gabriel discovered he enjoyed it, and by the way so did the audiences. It seems the only ones put off by it were the other guys in Genesis (though not until around the time of SEBTP.)
    I think what happened was that Gabriel's onstage theatrics started to overshadow the music, at least in the press, at the time. If there was an article on Genesis in Melody Maker or The Enemy...er, I mean, NME, it would be mostly about Gabriel.

    In fact, I think that frustration that was led, in part, to Steve Hackett's accident that forced them to postpone the UK leg of The Lamb... tour. He was at an after show party, following a Sensational Alex Harvey Band gig, and he over heard someon saying that "The band would be nothing without Alex", and that upset him because people were saying the same stuff about Gabriel and Genesis, and in a fit of rage, broke a wineglass in his hand, which required him to get stitches, the upshot being he couldn't play guitar for a few weeks.


    Also, Gabriel's bass drum was not a prop. He was originally a drummer and wanted to contribute musically to what was happening on stage. Plus he felt it lent their music some extra -- and much needed in his view -- bottom end.
    I think the "contributing musically" thing was also why he started playing flute and oboe, because he wanted to be able to do something during the instrumental sections, particularly the sort of acoustic oriented things. Tony wouldn't let him anywhere near the keyboards (the only other instrument Peter knew how to play), so Pete had to resort to playing percussion and woodwinds to be able to make his mark at that side of the band's music.
    I guess it's subjective as to which looks more odd, Peter Gabriel dressed as Brittania or Kiss dressed as whatever they were supposed to be.
    I don't think Kiss were meant to be anything other than visually interesting, in terms of standing out from all the other bands in NYC at the time. I mean, there's sort of a concept for one of each them was supposed to be, but I think in general, the idea was just they were trying to convey a sort of a "larger than life" visual thing, like they were supposed to be super heroes. But I don't think there was any big "artistic" idea goign on.

    By contrast, I think Gabriel's trip was more informed by acting out the songs in concert. He was typically portraying characters from the song (like the old man in The Musical Box, or the Slipperman, or whatever). Maybe the connection between "Britannia" and the lyrics of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight seem vague or abstract at best, but I think in his mind, the costumes related to the music in some way.

    As a fan of both, I think they both look equally ridiculous, but as Freddie Mercury once described his own mid 70's onstage persona, "It looked ridiculous then, but at least it worked".

    The difference being, once Peter stopped wearing the costumes, I believe he's resisted all temptation to put them back on. I don't think he even wore them on the Six Of The Best concert (though I recall reading that he was brought onstage in a coffin). I unfortunately, can't say the same for Gene, Paul, Ace and Peter (or whoever it is Gene and Paul currently has posing as Ace and Peter).

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